Grand Duke Georgi and Princess Victoria Romanovna News Thread (Oct. 2021 - )

[MAfan]

Welcome to Grand Duke Georgi Mikhailovich and Princess Victoria Romanovna news and current events thread.




The previous thread about Grand Duke Georgi can be found here.




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[Marengo]

Apparently princess Victoria was engaged in a social media spat with an account named royalty and protocol:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CPN37uhn...dium=copy_link

via: https://mb.boardhost.com/historyroya...633199031.html

[Moonmaiden23]

Talk about starting off on the wrong foot.

Oh dear. Oh dear.

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Apparently princess Victoria was engaged in a social media spat with an account named royalty and protocol:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CPN37uhn...dium=copy_link

via: https://mb.boardhost.com/historyroya...633199031.html

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23

Talk about starting off on the wrong foot.

Oh dear. Oh dear.

That happened months ago. Without knowing who started the spat the person behind the account, which is highly informative and on excellent terms with many royals and nobles, is a person of very firm convictions who is never afraid to state their opinion. Apparently something they said rubbed Princess Victoria the wrong way.

Sent from my SM-G955F using The Royals Community mobile app

[Tatiana Maria]

The forum poster in the linked post seems to have thrown out some unsubstantiated allegations of their own, if the replies are any indication. https://mb.boardhost.com/historyroya...633202590.html

Regarding the Instagram link, it is a screencap of a post which appears to be posted by Rebecca Bettarini, as she was then. The post says "Unfortunately we spotted another Instagram account who writes fake news about the Russian imperial house and us! If you are a blogger fact check your information with our staff before posting fake news, @fakenews no more!"

It is not my place to judge the alleged spat about "fake news" (I have never heard of either account), but the fact that the post on @royaltyandprotocol calls a person whose legal name is Georgi Mikhailovich Romanoff and who is widely known as Grand Duke George "Prince George von Hohenzollern" damages its credibility.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

The forum poster in the linked post seems to have thrown out some unsubstantiated allegations of their own, if the replies are any indication. https://mb.boardhost.com/historyroya...633202590.html

Regarding the Instagram link, it is a screencap of a post which appears to be posted by Rebecca Bettarini, as she was then. The post says "Unfortunately we spotted another Instagram account who writes fake news about the Russian imperial house and us! If you are a blogger fact check your information with our staff before posting fake news, @fakenews no more!"

It is not my place to judge the alleged spat about "fake news" (I have never heard of either account), but the fact that the post on @royaltyandprotocol calls a person whose legal name is Georgi Mikhailovich Romanoff and who is widely known as Grand Duke George "Prince George von Hohenzollern" damages its credibility.

As son of Franz Wilhelm Prinz von Preußen, under normal circumstances he would be known as Georg Prinz von Preußen. Never as Georg Prinz von Hohenzollern because only their South-German cousins use that title and surname. That damages the credibility of that Instagrammer indeed.

[Duc_et_Pair]

I am curious to see how this develops. Rebecca in no way is compatible with the rules Maria herself adhered as one of the pilars of her claim plus she is going to become 40 years old.

That Maria did not create the traditional House title Grand-Princess of Russia ("Grand-Duchess" in lousy English translation) but just a personal style HSH Princess Romanoff shows her mingled feelings about this union.

But having said that: contrary to so many others, bending House Laws into their direction (the Castros and the Savoias for an example) Maria kept the rules with which she desavoued others, so no "conveniently weak knees" here.

As a mother Maria looked very happy. As head of the House she had another position, so it looks.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Apparently princess Victoria was engaged in a social media spat with an account named royalty and protocol:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CPN37uhn...dium=copy_link

via: https://mb.boardhost.com/historyroya...633199031.html

As was mentioned in a message above, this occurred months ago.

I know the person who runs that particular Instagram page. They are Brazilian and very knowledgeable about royal history; they have at least one article published in Royalty Digest Quarterly some years ago. However, they can be a bit disrespectful and déclassé in their comments about royals from time to time.

As someone who has also had interactions with Princess Victoria, I can only say that she has always been extremely kind and helpful. I believe that we should treat others as we want to be treated. Victoria Romanovna is an extremely intelligent and talented person. She will and already has been a great asset, in my view, to the Russian Imperial Family.

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

I am curious to see how this develops. Rebecca in no way is compatible with the rules Maria herself adhered as one of the pilars of her claim plus she is going to become 40 years old.

That Maria did not create the traditional House title Grand-Princess of Russia ("Grand-Duchess" in lousy English translation) but just a personal style HSH Princess Romanoff shows her mingled feelings about this union.

But having said that: contrary to so many others, bending House Laws into their direction (the Castros and the Savoias for an example) Maria kept the rules with which she desavoued others, so no "conveniently weak knees" here.

As a mother Maria looked very happy. As head of the House she had another position, so it looks.

The grand duchess has always adhered to the House Laws of the Russian Imperial House, which she took an oath to uphold when she succeeded her late father in 1992. Maria Vladimirovna's position about the marriage is clear: the bride is now HSH Princess Victoria Romanovna Romanoff (Romanova in Russia). Of course, there is always the possibility that the Fundamental Laws, which are extremely rigid, might be relaxed in the future. For the time being, however, Grand Duchess Maria acted in accordance with these laws.

Personally, I hope that someday Grand Duke George's marriage will be regarded as equal, and that his wife will be accorded the style and title HIH Grand Duchess of Russia. All of the reigning houses, and most of the non-reigning, have abandoned or changed the house laws that governed their dynasties.

It is simply a matter of modernity. We must adapt with the changing times.

[Marengo]

In that case we can rest assured that this branch did adapt to modern times. Weren't those supposedly rigid laws bent before when it suited this line of the family? The laws were bent again and again for this branch, starting from the wedding of GD Kirill. They were bent for the wedding of GD Wladimir and later on they were bent yet again for his daughter Maria to succeed.

Considering the remarkable flexibility that this branch has shown before when it suited them I can't see why the Grand Duchess can not change the rules for her daughter-in-law and eventual descendants. If it does not happen I suppose that after her death the family will be extinct in the eyes of GDss Maria?

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Marengo

In that case we can rest assured that this branch did adapt to modern times. Weren't those supposedly rigid laws bended before when it suited this line of the family? The laws were bent again and again for this branch, starting from the wedding of GD Kirill. They were bent for the wedding of GD Wladimir and later on they were bent yet again for his dauhgter Maria to succeed.

Considering the remarkable flexibility that this branch ahd before when it suited them I can't see why the Grand Duchess can not change the rules for her daughter-in-law and eventual descendants. If it does not happen I suppose that after her death the family will be extinct in the eyes of GDss Maria?

When the Castros, the Savoias, the Romanias had a son, they never would have amended the rules. But ow eh... no little boy in sight? We conveniently bend the rules. Pas de problème!

Maria Vladimirovna could have done the same: "My son can not find an Ebenbürtige partner? No problem, we just bend the rules. It is 2021, isn't it". How conveniently...

It speaks for Maria that she herself did not make a twist to make her own position totally unreliable. (This -of course- leaves it to Georgy Mikhailovich himself, the future Chef, to create Rebecca a Grand-Princess of Russia with the style of an Imperial Highness).

(They were spinning it a bit by calling Rebecca and her father Nobile, which they are not at all. It is a honorific "abused" after granting them former a former imperial House Order. (Spinning it so that Rebecca really, really, really is not that "commoner" at all: she is a Nobile, folks!).

[Marengo]

I suppose an explanation for not having much flexibility on this particular subject is that Maria's claim is based on the fact that other branches of the family were excluded from succession due to their morganatic marriages. To change the rules for her son she would undermine her own position vis-a-vis the descendants of GDss Xenia & GD Alexander.

If the Grand Duchess were consistent in her approach to morganatic marriages she would have to exclude herself from succession too, due to the status of her mother's family.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Marengo

I suppose an explanation for not having much flexibility on this particular subject is that Maria's claim is based on the fact that other branches of the family were excluded from succession due to their morganatic marriages. To change the rules for her son she would undermine her own position vis-a-vis the descendants of GDss Xenia & GD Alexander.

If the Grand Duchess were consistent in her approach to morganatic marriages she would have to exclude herself from succession too, due to the status of her mother's family..

It means Maria Vladimrovna should have to dismiss an Imperial Decree which was established way before she even was born:


Decree of the Head of the Russian Imperial House, H.I.H. Grand-Prince Vladimir Kirillovich, on the recognition of the royal rank of the House of Bagration, 22 November/5 December 1946.

His Royal Highness Don Fernando María de Baviera y Borbón, Infante de España, Prinz von Bayern, asked me when his daughter, Doña María de las Mercedes de Baviera y Borbón, Infanta de España, Prinzessin von Bayern, was about to contract a marriage with Prince Irakly Georgievich de Bagration-Mukhraneli, whether, taking into account the independence of Georgia from 1918 to 1921 and the present position of its Royal Family, I could consider the proposed marriage to be an equal one.

My reply, which was conveyed to the Infante through the intermediary of the Spanish Minister in Berne, the Conde de Bailén, was in the affirmative, inasmuch as, after prolonged and careful study of the history of Georgia and of the Georgian question, and after consulting my uncle His Imperial Highness Grand-Prince Andrey Vladimirovich, brother of my late Father, and my advisers, and after correspondence with the historian, Professor M. Muskelishvili:

I consider it right and proper to recognize the royal status of the senior branch of the Bagration family, as well as the right of its members to bear the title of Prince of Georgia and the style of Royal Highness. The present head of the family is Prince Georgy Alexandrovich.

If Almighty God, in His mercy, grants the rebirth of our great empire, I consider it right that the Georgian language should be restored for use in the internal administration of Georgia and in her educational establishments. The Russian language should be obligatory for general use within the empire.

I have decided to draw up this Decree for the good of the Russian Empire and for the preservation of its territorial integrity in the future, and have deemed it right to affix my signature to it, in order to satisfy the legitimate national sentiments of the Georgian people and in the hopes of avoiding thereby a possible annexation of their fatherland by force of arms, in the event of its willful secession from the Russian Empire.

(The original is signed in His Imperial Highness’s own hand:)

V l a d i m i r

Sanlúcar de Barrameda,
5 December 1946

[CyrilVladisla]

After her own son Grand Duke Georgi, who does Grand Duchess Maria recognize as the next heir to the imperial throne?

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla

After her own son Grand Duke Georgi, who does Grand Duchess Maria recognize as the next heir to the imperial throne?

Georgy Mikhailovich, as yet, is the only descendant of Maria Vladimirovna. If both died without further heirs, the right to the Imperial Crown will presumably pass to Andreas, Prinz zu Leiningen, whom is the nearest non-morganatically descended male relative to Maria Vladimirovna and Georgy Mikhailovich.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Georgy Mikhailovich, as yet, is the only descendant of Maria Vladimirovna. If both died without further heirs, the right to the Imperial Crown will presumably pass to Andreas, Prinz zu Leiningen, whom is the nearest non-morganatically descended male relative to Maria Vladimirovna and Georgy Mikhailovich.

You forgot his older-brother Karl-Emich who is married to a Countess and has a son with her.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

It means Maria Vladimrovna should have to dismiss an Imperial Decree which was established way before she even was born:


Decree of the Head of the Russian Imperial House, H.I.H. Grand-Prince Vladimir Kirillovich, on the recognition of the royal rank of the House of Bagration, 22 November/5 December 1946.

His Royal Highness Don Fernando María de Baviera y Borbón, Infante de España, Prinz von Bayern, asked me when his daughter, Doña María de las Mercedes de Baviera y Borbón, Infanta de España, Prinzessin von Bayern, was about to contract a marriage with Prince Irakly Georgievich de Bagration-Mukhraneli, whether, taking into account the independence of Georgia from 1918 to 1921 and the present position of its Royal Family, I could consider the proposed marriage to be an equal one.

My reply, which was conveyed to the Infante through the intermediary of the Spanish Minister in Berne, the Conde de Bailén, was in the affirmative, inasmuch as, after prolonged and careful study of the history of Georgia and of the Georgian question, and after consulting my uncle His Imperial Highness Grand-Prince Andrey Vladimirovich, brother of my late Father, and my advisers, and after correspondence with the historian, Professor M. Muskelishvili:

I consider it right and proper to recognize the royal status of the senior branch of the Bagration family, as well as the right of its members to bear the title of Prince of Georgia and the style of Royal Highness. The present head of the family is Prince Georgy Alexandrovich.

If Almighty God, in His mercy, grants the rebirth of our great empire, I consider it right that the Georgian language should be restored for use in the internal administration of Georgia and in her educational establishments. The Russian language should be obligatory for general use within the empire.

I have decided to draw up this Decree for the good of the Russian Empire and for the preservation of its territorial integrity in the future, and have deemed it right to affix my signature to it, in order to satisfy the legitimate national sentiments of the Georgian people and in the hopes of avoiding thereby a possible annexation of their fatherland by force of arms, in the event of its willful secession from the Russian Empire.

(The original is signed in His Imperial Highness’s own hand:)

V l a d i m i r

Sanlúcar de Barrameda,
5 December 1946

Very interesting that members/descendants of the deposed former reigning families of Russia and Spain questioned the "equality" of a marriage into another former reigning family.

If Maria Vladimirovna or Georgi Mikhailovich were to eliminate the equal marriage laws despite having used them to establish their own claims over other descendants, they would be following in the footsteps of Otto and Karl Habsburg, the heads of the former reigning family of Austria. Had it not been for equal marriage laws, the morganatic Hohenbergs would have the more convincing claim.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Stefan

You forgot his older-brother Karl-Emich who is married to a Countess and has a son with her.

Oh yes, I had Andreas in my mind, but you are right.

Maria Vladmirovna Romanova, Grand-Princess of Russia
(daughter of Vladimir Kyrillovich Romanov, Grand-Prince of Russia
and of Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Mukhraneli)
|
Georgy Mikhailovich Romanov, Grand-Prince of Russia / Georg Prinz von Preußen
(son of Maria Vladimirovna Romanova, Grand-Princess of Russia
and of Franz Wilhelm Prinz von Preußen)
|
Karl-Emich Prinz zu Leiningen
(son of Emich Fürst zu Leiningen
and of Ellika Herzogin von Oldenburg)
|
Emich Prinz zu Leiningen
(son of Karl-Emich Prinz zu Leiningen
and of Isabelle Gräfin von und zu Egloffstein)
|
Andreas Fürst zu Leiningen
(son of Emich Fürst zu Leiningen and of Ellika Herzogin von Oldenburg)

Karl-Emich already considered himself the Heir, but now Georgy has married a "commoner", his claim will only become stronger. When Georgy Mikhailovich and Rebecca have no issue, he will be the Heir anyway.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

If Maria Vladimirovna or Georgi Mikhailovich were to eliminate the equal marriage laws despite having used them to establish their own claims over other descendants, they would be following in the footsteps of Otto and Karl Habsburg, the heads of the former reigning family of Austria. Had it not been for equal marriage laws, the morganatic Hohenbergs would have the more convincing claim.

But then this was decided by an reigning Emperor when Austria still was a Monarchy. And the Habsburgs have also relaxed their marriage requierements in the 1970's before skipping them altogether.

[Marengo]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Oh yes, I had Andreas in my mind, but you are right.

Maria Vladmirovna Romanova, Grand-Princess of Russia
(daughter of Vladimir Kyrillovich Romanov, Grand-Prince of Russia
and of Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Mukhraneli)
|
Georgy Mikhailovich Romanov, Grand-Prince of Russia / Georg Prinz von Preußen
(son of Maria Vladimirovna Romanova, Grand-Princess of Russia
and of Franz Wilhelm Prinz von Preußen)
|
Karl-Emich Prinz zu Leiningen
(son of Emich Fürst zu Leiningen
and of Ellika Herzogin von Oldenburg)
|
Emich Prinz zu Leiningen
(son of Karl-Emich Prinz zu Leiningen
and of Isabelle Gräfin von und zu Egloffstein)
|
Andreas Fürst zu Leiningen
(son of Emich Fürst zu Leiningen and of Ellika Herzogin von Oldenburg)

Karl-Emich already considered himself the Heir, but now Georgy has married a "commoner", his claim will only become stronger. When Georgy Mikhailovich and Rebecca have no issue, he will be the Heir anyway.

What difference would that make? Karl Emichs own marriage would not stand the test of the Pauline laws either, though I suppose his eldest daughter could succeed him as her mother was a Hohenlohe. Though it is not clear if mediatized houses would be considered equal under the Pauline laws, as no member of the Romanov dynasty ever married somebody from a mediatized house -save Prince Karl Emich's grandmother.

Originally Posted by Duc et Pair

It means Maria Vladimrovna should have to dismiss an Imperial Decree which was established way before she even was born:

The ways in which this branch has tried and is trying to elbow out other claims and the Romanov family association are well known. They have been succesful to a large extend, as we could see during the grand wedding this weekend. The 'Imperial decree', going against earlier decisions by Nicholas II, is not necessarily a sign of great principle - as you seem to regard it. It can also be considered as yet another sign of this branch utilising or bending the Pauline laws in whatever way suits them best, considering only a few months later the heir of Grand Duke Vladimir would marry the sister-in-law of the said Infanta.

Let's see if the present interpretation of the Pauline laws will hold if there are grand children on the way. I would not be surprised if at some point in the future Princess Victoria will be 'elevated' to a Grand Duchess. The great vigour with which Grand Duchess Maria is promoting her claim over the rest of the family has put her in a corner, so perhaps it will be left to her son in the distant future to make such a -IMO sensible- move.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Marengo

What difference would that make? Karl Emichs own marriage would not stand the test of the Pauline laws either, though I suppose his eldest daughter could succeed him as her mother was a Hohenlohe. Though it is not clear if mediatized houses would be considered equal under the Pauline laws, as no member of the Romanov dynasty ever married somebody from a mediatized house -save Prince Karl Emich's grandmother.

The Pauline laws would also not stand the test of Grnad Duchess Maria to the Fürst zu Leiningen but as far as i know they where only for the russian dynasts or members of the Romanov 'Family.