Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich (1891-1941)

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Odette

I wonder how many non Imperial Highnesses could withstand all these tragedies and still keep their heads screwed on properly.
Apart from the Duchess of Windsor's statement, Dmitri looked frail not just fashionably thin. He suffered from TB and this may have been a reason why he did not look too "healthy". Of course the guide's explanation was that he was so pale because he was scared of what they were about to do....which imho he should have since none of them could manage to kill Rasputin and discard his body without half the neighbourhood being in the know before daybreak...

Now I wonder about that. Dmitry was in the war effort and Misha was sent to the front many times, as you know with the Crawford book. In GD Marie's book, Dmitry would come visit her at her hospital after being at the front. Now! Wtih a man who was living with death, do you think he was afraid of Rasputin like the guards said? I don't think so.

[Vasillisos Markos]

But being at the front is not the same as killing an individual in a palace. I think the original plan was to have Rasputin die from eating the poisoned wine and cakes. Dmitri and the others were upstairs while Felix attempted to commit "murder most foul" down below but when that failed, all hell broke loose with Rasputin attempting to escape and shots being fired. Felix kept his cool but the others, according to Felix, were not so sangfroid. Could it be that Dmitri was softer than he may have appeared or acted?

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos

Could it be that Dmitri was softer than he may have appeared or acted?

Good question, VM. And since we don't have a whole heck of a lot of knowledge about him, except what others have written, and sometimes memories can be kinder than the truth, we can't be very sure.
However! That's something we can delve into, isn't it?? !!

[Vasillisos Markos]

I am currently reading Memories of Alexei Vokov: Personal Valet to Tsarina Alexandra Feodorovna 1910-1918. Volkov started out in the military and caught the eye of Alexander III and was taken into personal service for the imperial family. After the death of Dmitri's mother, it appears Volkov became a traveling companion for Grand Duke Paul, who suffered from some "nervous malady" being treated in Berlin and often going away for the cure and treatments. I wonder if Dmitri inherited his father's physical or psychological maladies? Was Dmitri's sister, Grand Duchess Marie, in good physical health?

[Russophile]

So far in her bio. she exhibits no ill health. Her first pregnancy had gone well also.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos

Felix kept his cool but the others, according to Felix, were not so sangfroid.

"according to Felix" being the operative phrase.
Opinions seem to be agreed that Prince Felix was somewhat full of himself so it's no surprise that his description of events may be self-serving.

Although there were others present, it's my understanding that Felix was the only one who detailed the events surrounding Rasputin's killing. From an historical perspective it's a pity we have just the one account. Then again, in the scheme of things the gory detail is just a macabre sidelight, albeit in its fashion foreshadowing what was to come.

[Odette]

Originally Posted by Russophile

Now I wonder about that. Dmitry was in the war effort and Misha was sent to the front many times, as you know with the Crawford book. In GD Marie's book, Dmitry would come visit her at her hospital after being at the front. Now! Wtih a man who was living with death, do you think he was afraid of Rasputin like the guards said? I don't think so.

Russo I do not believe the quote was that the GD was afraid of Rasputin but rather of the act those four were about to commit.

[Vasillisos Markos]

Originally Posted by Warren

"according to Felix" being the operative phrase.
Opinions seem to be agreed that Prince Felix was somewhat full of himself so it's no surprise that his description of events may be self-serving.

Although there were others present, it's my understanding that Felix was the only one who detailed the events surrounding Rasputin's killing. From an historical perspective it's a pity we have just the one account. Then again, in the scheme of things the gory detail is just a macabre sidelight, albeit in its fashion foreshadowing what was to come.

Right you are, Warren. Felix is certainly full of himself and would have been a very difficult person to be around, at least in my humble opinion. I think Dmitri was obviously involved or there would have been more protestations on his part but I too wonder just how involved Dmitri was in the plot and murder. I think Felix was so full of his grandeur and importance that he could not imagine ever being made to account for the crime and may have been the main instigator, the others just going along to make sure the mission was carried out.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Odette

Russo I do not believe the quote was that the GD was afraid of Rasputin but rather of the act those four were about to commit.

Oh good point Odette! Thanks!

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos

Right you are, Warren. Felix is certainly full of himself and would have been a very difficult person to be around, at least in my humble opinion. I think Dmitri was obviously involved or there would have been more protestations on his part but I too wonder just how involved Dmitri was in the plot and murder. I think Felix was so full of his grandeur and importance that he could not imagine ever being made to account for the crime and may have been the main instigator, the others just going along to make sure the mission was carried out.

Probably the conspirators did not know their way to hell was paved with those good intentions of offing Rasputin.
My Peter says that in his latter life, Felix would tell the tale and retell it drawing it out more and more. Anad that Irina grew very irritated with him about it. Though she didn't say much. In fact, all of Xenia and Sandro's children didn't say much. I can't remember where I read it though they were known as the silent princes.

[Vasillisos Markos]

My dear Russo,

Felix sounds like he belongs in my family -- the stories get better with each re-telling! After a while, you cannot even recognize the tale.

[Vasillisos Markos]

I read an on-line biography of Grand Duke Dmitri and it stated that Dmitri recognized Cyril's claim to the throne. But the bio also stated that several monarchical organizations recognize Dmitri's grandson, Prince Pavlo Dmitrovich Romanov as the heir to the Russian Throne. Is this because the throne can only go to a male and the claim of Cyril's descendants fails because the current head of Cyril's line is a woman? Does anyone know of this prince, Pavlo Dmitrovich?

[MAfan]

Some believe that Kirill and his siblings and their descendants had/have no rights to the throne because at the time of Kirill's burth his mother Marie Pavlovna still was Lutheran and not Orthodox.
Therefore after the abdication and eventually the death of (Tsar) Michael Alexandrovic in 1917-18, being the children of Grand Duke Wladimir ineligible to the throne because of their mother's faith, Dmitri Pavlovich became de iure Tsar.
Being the Emperor, he didn't need anyone's permission to marry, so his marriage to Audrey Emery was dynastic, and at his death in 1942 his only son Paul (Ilinsky) succeeded him as Tsar, and at Paul's death in 2004 he was succeeded by his son Dmitri, born in 1959.

But actually GD Wladimir's children were always recognized as full dynasts, Kirill's marriage was eventually recognized as legal and dynastic in 1910, Dmitri recognized him as Head of the Imperial Family and Dmitri's marriage was considered as morganatic by Kirill; and Dmitri's son Paul never considered the idea of claiming anything in Russia.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos

I read an on-line biography of Grand Duke Dmitri and it stated that Dmitri recognized Cyril's claim to the throne. But the bio also stated that several monarchical organizations recognize Dmitri's grandson, Prince Pavlo Dmitrovich Romanov as the heir to the Russian Throne. Is this because the throne can only go to a male and the claim of Cyril's descendants fails because the current head of Cyril's line is a woman? Does anyone know of this prince, Pavlo Dmitrovich?

Which one?? I had thought it was rather a "you scratch my back, i'll scratch yours" sort of thing with GD Dmitry and Kyril as Dmitry "recognized" him, and Kyril styled Audrey Emery as Princess Illinskoe.
Do the descendants of GD Dmitry still live in Florida?

[MAfan]

Good thought, Russo; actually it happened exactly what you wrote, one accepted the other as Head of the Imperial Family and the other created the one's wife Princess. I don't know if they had any sort of agreement, or maybe the two things happened separately...who knows?

Dmitri's descendants are living in the USA; almost all of Paul (Dmitri's son) grandchildren were born in Cincinnati, Ohio, and three of his four children also married there; I wonder if they're living there too.

[Vasillisos Markos]

I think one, the aforementioned Paul, lives in Europe but MAfan is correct, the children were born in Cincinnati. Dmitri's son was an Illynsky and he rejected any claim to the throne and was elected Mayor of Palm Beach. I really don't remember where I read about the son living in Europe.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos

I think one, the aforementioned Paul, lives in Europe but MAfan is correct, the children were born in Cincinnati. Dmitri's son was an Illynsky and he rejected any claim to the throne and was elected Mayor of Palm Beach. I really don't remember where I read about the son living in Europe.

Interesting. Do any of them stylize themselves as Prince or Princess of Russia? They have that right don't they?

[Vasillisos Markos]

Russo dear,

Perhaps this answers your question:

He [Paul, Grand Duke Dmitri's son] held British and U.S. citizenship.
At the death of Grand Duke Vladimir of Russia in 1992, Paul Ilyinsky succeeded as the Head of the House of Holstein-Gottorp (de jure Duke of Holstein-Gottorp [source: Theroff]), which in accordance with the 1604 Norrköping Succession Pact holds its rights to the Swedish throne as well as to the throne of the Grand Duchy of Finland (there reiterated for example in the 1772 Constitution and the 1809 Oaths of Fealty), inherited through his ancestress Hedvig Sophia of Sweden, duchess of Holstein-Gottorp, the eldest sister of the childless Charles XII of Sweden.

Sources: Paul Theroff, Online Gotha

• Guy Stair sainty, the Russian imperial succession
• 1772 constitution (Instrument of Government of the Grand Duchy of Finland)

[edit] Issue


This section does not cite any references or sources.
Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (November 2006)
Paul Ilyinsky was married first, in Honolulu, Hawaii, on 29 July 1949, to Mary Evelyn Prince (born 1925); the marriage was annulled in 1951. They had no children.

From his second marriage with Angelica Philippa Kauffmann (born Paris 21 June 1932 or 23 March 1932), whom Paul married in Palm Beach, Florida on 1 October 1952, he had four children. His issue is as follows:

• Prince Dimitri Romanovsky-Ilyinsky, titular Duke of Holstein-Gottorp (born Palm Beach 1 May 1954) who married in New Haven, Connecticut, 22 September 1979, Martha Murray McDowell (born New Haven, Connecticut 15 Jun 1952) and has three daughters:[5]
  • Princess Catherine Adair Romanovsky-Ilyinsky (born Cincinnati, Ohio 4 August 1981)
  • Princess Victoria Bayard Romanovsky-Ilyinsky (born Cincinnati, Ohio 23 November 1984)
  • Princess Lela McDowell Romanovsky-Ilyinsky (born Cincinnati, Ohio 26 August 1986)

• Princess Paula Maria Romanovsky-Ilyinsky (born Palm Beach, Florida 18 May 1956), married in Cincinnati, Ohio, 31 May 1980, Mark Comisar (born Cincinnati, Ohio 17 June 1953), and had two children, the elder of whom survives:
  • Alexander Lee Comisar (born Cincinnati 6 April 1983)
  • Makena Anna Comisar (Cincinnati 20 Nov 1984-killed in a car accident in which she was the driver, Clermont County, Ohio 1 August 2002)

• Princess Anna Romanovsky-Ilyinsky (born Palm Beach 4 September 1959); married firstly in Henniker, New Hampshire, 9 May 1980, (divorced 1990) Robin de Young (born Cambridge, Massachusetts, 25 December 1952); married secondly in Cincinnati, Ohio, 18 December 1992, David Wise Glossinger (born Dayton, Ohio 11 July 1953). Has four children, two of each marriage:
  • Audrey Emery de Young (born Cincinnati 1 April 1983)
  • Heather Morrison de Young (born Cincinnati 25 October 1985)
  • Sophia Wise Glossinger (born Cincinnati 5 May 1993)
  • Paul Glossinger (born Cincinnati 19 Sep 1994)

• Prince Michael Romanovsky-Ilyinsky (born Palm Beach 3 Nov 1959); married firstly in Cincinnati, 7 May 1985, (divorced 1986) Marcia Marie Lowe; married secondly 2 Nov 1989 (divorced 1995) Paula Gay Maier; thirdly 1999 (divorced 2000) Lisa Marie Schiesler (born 17 May 1973). Has one daughter, born of second marriage:
  • Princess Alexis Taylor Romanoff-Ilyinsky (born 21 March 1994)

I found this on Wikipedia so take it for what it is worth as far as being accurate. It appears that Paul had no issue from his firsts marriage. And there does not appear to be any Prince Paul among the grandchildren, so I don't know who is the Pavlo referenced above as the pretender to the throne.

[MAfan]

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos

And there does not appear to be any Prince Paul among the grandchildren, so I don't know who is the Pavlo referenced above as the pretender to the throne.

I can only guess that it was a mistake, they wrote grandson instead of son; or perhaps they confused Dmitri Pavlovic (Ilynsky) with Pavlo Dmitrievic; actually it isn't difficult to commit a mistake, since we have two Paul (the Grand-Duke, GD Dmitri's father, and the late Prince Ilynskyi) and two Dmitri (the Grand-Duke and his grandson Ilynskyi) in the same family.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by MAfan

I can only guess that it was a mistake, they wrote grandson instead of son; or perhaps they confused Dmitri Pavlovic (Ilynsky) with Pavlo Dmitrievic; actually it isn't difficult to commit a mistake, since we have two Paul (the Grand-Duke, GD Dmitri's father, and the late Prince Ilynskyi) and two Dmitri (the Grand-Duke and his grandson Ilynskyi) in the same family.

Don't forget they threw Audrey Emery in the mix as well!


Thanks VM!!