Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna: June 2008-

[NGalitzine]

Certainly, but Maria is not a regime......she is a private person with an interesting set of ancestors. In the 21st century for her to create anyone a Grand Duke or to say she "exiled" someone or declared that some person is not a member of the Romanoff family would be laughable.

[BeatrixFan]

The concept of monarchy is that one person regards another as their King. There are people in and outside of Russia who regard Maria as their Empress. And so to them, if Maria says that the Romanov relatives are members of the Imperial House but not of the Imperial Family, her supporters will take that on board and take it as the official position. And in similar terms, those who consider Nicholas to be Head of the House will follow his belief that Maria and George aren't who they claim to be.

I also think you're a bit off to say that it'd be laughable if she created someone a Grand Duke or to declare that some members of the family are not so. She's done it, Grand Duke Vladimir did it, Grand Duke Kyril did it. It's part of the parcel of being head of a royal family, reigning or non reigning. There's an interesting document on Maria's website in which she says she's "depriving X of her favour" in regard to someone selling off Russian decorations. For Maria to be taken seriously as a potential Empress (and I'm not saying she stands a chance of being such) she has to behave as one. You might consider that silly, I consider it to be entirely appropriate and to regulate the Imperial House by the laws she sets to keep it's dignity. Which I think she has done.

[AristoCat]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

What I meant was, Maria decides who is a member of the Imperial Family and who isn't. Just as King Constantine, Crown Prince Alexander etc etc can.

The difference is that with King Constantine and Crown Prince Alexander, there is a clearly defined line of succession and there is not any division in regards to who is and who is not the Head of the family.

[BeatrixFan]

Absolutely. And it could be easily resolved if Nicholas was to man up and stick to his principles. He says he doesnt believe monarchy is right for Russia yet he still parades around styling himself as a Prince. Quite aside from the fact that Maria Vladimirovna is obviously the head of the family, she actually wants to be. It's a role she believes in. Why not just let her get on with it instead of causing division which does the Imperial House no favours whatsoever?

[NGalitzine]

Well I suppose it is because Maria, like her father before her, claims that Nicholas and others have no right to the Romanoff name and should call themselves Romanovskys. The end result of all of this family infighting is that the so called Imperial family is limited to Maria herself and her son Prince Georg of Prussia, aka Grand Duke Georgi of Russia. They have backed themselves into a corner which could result in their "Imperial Family" becoming extinct. What happens if her son does nor marry equally or marry at all? She says she can change the rules but that just highlights the issue of other Romanoffs who married into Russian noble families. Even if he does marry equally what happens if he cannot father children?

[AristoCat]

Well I suppose it is because Maria, like her father before her, claims that Nicholas and others have no right to the Romanoff name and should call themselves Romanovskys.

Exactly and I sincerely think that is the crux of the issue. If she would lower her stubborn pride and basically accept that they are family, I am more than sure that there would be less division and more acceptance as her Head of the House of Romanov and Georgi as Heir. She needs to stop degrading them and start accepting their side of things. Nicholas might not at all want to reign and might enjoy his title, but like a lot of the others, he isn't being so presumptuous as to declare who would be the best for ordinary Russians.

[COUNTESS]

This is all "Kabuki Theatre". Maria is nothing, they all have no status, anywhere. And, unless, some legitimate government recognizes her or them as anything, who cares.

[Benjamin]

I do not see how considering someone to be a morganaut or a descendant of the Imperial Family but not a dynast (which is Maria's stance with regards to her cousins) can be deemed degrading behavior.

For instance, as we know, the descendants of Grand Duke Dimitri are not plain Messrs/Mmes Romanov (as are Nicholas and Dimitri and their wives and issue...because Prince Roman chose not to seek a title for his spouse), but instead Princes Romanov-Ilyinskys thanks to Dimitri obtaining permission for his marriage and requesting a title for his wife from the then Head of the Imperial House, Grand Duke Kirill. The Ilyinskys are perfectly fine with their status and do not go around parading under assumed titles. Nicholas and Dimitri would have been well-served to follow their example, but, alas, that has not been the case.

[BeatrixFan]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

This is all "Kabuki Theatre". Maria is nothing, they all have no status, anywhere. And, unless, some legitimate government recognizes her or them as anything, who cares.

I care. The various Russian monarchist movements who regard Maria as Head of the Imperial Family care. It's far from theatre and I think thats a little unkind. Maria does an awful lot of good work representing Russian interests across the world, I wouldn't call that theatre and of course she has status otherwise she wouldn't be recieved and accepted as the Head of the Russian Imperial Family by so many other Heads of State (including Putin/Medvedev).

[kell]

the russian government last i recall takes a hands off appoarch to this bickering till if ever the question arises or they ll pick someone who isnt a romanov

[NGalitzine]

I agree Kell. They also receive Prince Dimitri Romanoff and even awarded him the Russian Order of Friendship.

[AristoCat]

Originally Posted by kell

the russian government last i recall takes a hands off appoarch to this bickering till if ever the question arises or they ll pick someone who isnt a romanov

I wonder if the Russian government finds the squabbling amusing.

[kell]

auctually there was a time article on it when the hermitage dictator wrote a letter to yeltison about marias son it s a lil amusing to read i posted it awhile back on these forums how if they put him on the throne hes gonna raise hell but other then then that i doubt they do there proably more disappointed that no clear legal heir out there but if theres a clear thought for them on the family squabble project russia comes to mind but atm they got bigger worries

[Cory]

HIH Grand Duchess Maria will be in Bucharest these days together with HIH Grand Duke George to celebrate HM King Mihai I of Romania's Jubilee.

[AristoCat]

She really does keep her son in lockdown, doesn't she?

[NotAPretender]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

Really? I doubt Maria would be so silly as to demand $10bn from the Russian government though I am surprised that she hasn't followed the example of quite a few exiled heads of royal houses and taken a case to the European Court of Human Rights to get property back. Indeed, when she's given interviews she always makes a point of saying that she doesn't want any financial compensation.

I don't doubt that she has named a price; as for whether she is "silly" or not, I think would be in the eye of the beholder. It would take a certain personality to cling to a dream as remote as restoration and to make bargains with the present and past regimes of a country in which the predecessors to those regimes wiped out my family. I wouldn't term it "silly," but other terms suggest themselves.

I'm glad she continues to be invited to extended family weddings and such events and while I find it odd that she keeps her son so close as to seem to this outsider as to be stifling, she has devoted her life to perpetuating a "dynasty" and as such, her whole existence is tied into him.

[BeatrixFan]

Well, I see it as so;

Firstly, there's Maria's role as head of the family which she's invented for herself. Her predecessors never really got the chance to do so because they were barred from visiting Russia let alone meeting with Russian officials. To me it seems that she's modeled herself on other exiled monarchs who continue to do the more social role of the job without the paperwork and the political duties. Let's look at part of the role Queen Elizabeth II plays. She travels around the world opening exhibitions, meeting people, representing her country etc. Well, Maria does the same. Whether she does this to represent Russia or the Romanov family is debatable but I'd say Maria's view is that it's done to represent Russia more than the Imperial Family. The Russian authorities obviously have no problem with her doing what she's doing. However, how many of these duties does George take on? I find it strange when people accuse Maria of holding her son as some kind of prisoner. He's hardly ever with her, they don't live in the same country (she's in Spain, his work with MMC Norilsk Nickel isn't located there AFAIK) and he doesn't accompany her when she makes her various trips. A quick look through the photo albums on Maria's website show how much she does by herself.

Now this negates the point that she won't let Georgi live his own life. Indeed, I think Maria hopes that he can enjoy independence and freedom from what she considers to be the role of the Imperial Family until he inherits. People will say, "inherit what?" but that's a whole seperate debate about the worth of the role the Imperial Family now plays. It may change when he gets married of course but for now, I think she takes the view that he should gain experience doing things he enjoys doing. And if we were talking about any other heir from a reigning family, the jobs he's had wouldn't be considered unsuitable training. So I disagree that her whole existence is tied to him. I would however agree that she has spent her life building a dynasty.

And I actually believe that to be a good thing. Most countries that had monarchies now utilise their royal families in some way (even though they remain republics) and I think there'll always be affection for them. It'd be easy for the Romanovs just to disappear and to pretend they aren't who they are but surely it's of more benefit to help in any way they can? And Maria's been careful to show her dedication isn't financial. In fact, all she's done, she's done without financial reparation. There's been no salary granted to her and though there are lots of Russian associations/organisations/leagues that happily fund her visits to them in Australia, Ukraine and the like, she must be very dedicated to want to keep doing what she's doing.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by NGalitzine

Well I suppose it is because Maria, like her father before her, claims that Nicholas and others have no right to the Romanoff name and should call themselves Romanovskys. The end result of all of this family infighting is that the so called Imperial family is limited to Maria herself and her son Prince Georg of Prussia, aka Grand Duke Georgi of Russia.

The Pauline Laws are clear as to who is a member of the imperial family and that category is limited to dynasts (those within the line of succession who married with permission and equally). Anyone who married without permission automatically lost all rights to the throne.

Those that married unequally but with permission received a new name and status for their wife and future children. Grand Duke Cyril and Vladimir clarified these matters with decrees citing the relevant sections of the Pauline Laws. These descendants were considered to be new noble lines associated with, but not members of, the imperial family.

Maria is simply following the family laws which define all of these matters clearly. Her cousins, some of whom are descended from marriages that were unapproved by Cyril or Vladimir, are simply Mister or Miss Romanov unless granted a title.

As stated earlier, for example, the Ilinyskys are entitled to "HSH Prince/Princess Romanovsky/skaya-Illinskoe" which was granted to Audrey Emery when she married Grand Duke Dimitri. Others, such as Nicholas Romanov's father, Prince Roman, married without permission and have no titles as a result.

It's pretty straightforward and clearly defined.

[AristoCat]

Now this negates the point that she won't let Georgi live his own life. Indeed, I think Maria hopes that he can enjoy independence and freedom from what she considers to be the role of the Imperial Family until he inherits. It may change when he gets married of course but for now, I think she takes the view that he should gain experience doing things he enjoys doing. And if we were talking about any other heir from a reigning family, the jobs he's had wouldn't be considered unsuitable training. So I disagree that her whole existence is tied to him. I would however agree that she has spent her life building a dynasty.

I think that she's taking a healthy point of view and she is not pushing her son to be dependent financially. It's not like she's keeping him locked in a box.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by AristoCat

She really does keep her son in lockdown, doesn't she?

Originally Posted by AristoCat

It's not like she's keeping him locked in a box.

Ahh...two seemingly opposite assertions, just two days apart. So which one is it?