Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna: June 2008-


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If it were not supported by taxpayers, I would certainly support a restoration.
 
So is grand duchess Maria vladimirovna persuading the Russian people to reconsider and have a constitutional monarchy and have the Romanovs on the throne again?
 
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She has an agenda, which she, hopes, suits her or her son. She speaks as if the Romanovs brought bounty and love. They were no better or worse than the Soviet, just more exclusive. I, wish, Russia better than their present regime or the Romanovs.
 
Again, where is your evidence? You often repeat these claims against Maria but you never seem to offer anything to substantiate them. And I think the Romanovs were a damn sight better than the Soviet regime which was responsible for the deaths of millions of innocents as a form of government....
 
Grandduchess24 said:
So is grand duchess Maria vladimirovna persuading the Russian people to reconsider and have a constitutional monarchy and have the Romanovs on the throne again?
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I think Maria is aiming for an arrangement similar to Romania or Yugoslavia, whereas the position of the formerly reigning dynasty is officially recognized by the Government and Church, with some support in the form of property and/or monies provided for the House.

Of course, Russia's history is quite different than Yugoslavia or Romania and it is difficult to imagine the Duma or the average Russian accepting any recognition of the imperial family. The fact is the Communists are still a very strong political force in Russia and they will be adamantly against it.
 
So were the Romanovs, my friend. They were on an equal par. It is, too bad, that those who don't know history, have made a romantic ploy of this. They were sadistic, self indulging, anti-semtic, and ruled over this huge, backward nation for 3 milenia. People weren't willing to give up their lives if their lot was so great. Even good. The country revolted, not just a small handful. Now, the Soviet was no bargain, either. But, unfortunately, these people didn't have the experience to understand a democratic nation. As far as Maria, I have no, personal, idea of her motives, nor do you. But, what seems apparaent, and, quite humanly, plausible, is that she wants her son to be a Tsar. She is trying to sell the "romatic" idea of a benficent monarchy. She wants the best for her son, she wants what she was raised to think. Not unusual.
 
I'm with Countess on this....the Romanovs were the full-roar match to the Soviets and over a longer period of time as well. Nicholas was quite rightly called Nicholas The Bloody, and the Romanovs veered between incompetency and brutality as leaders. Maria has been attempting to get recognition from whoever was in charge in Russia without regard to their politics or ethics for decades now: her goal, single minded, is to crawl into bed and bargain her son to whoever will place the crown of her distant ancestors onto her semi-Royal pate, or that of her Prussian princely son.

Putin however is nobody's fool, least of all Maria's. If he does anything for her, be sure that it will benefit him above anyone or anything else. And if the Russian people remember their history, they will not remember the Romanovs as rulers kindly. They remember the Romanovs as deceased icons quite fondly....because they are dead and have no further influence.

Make no mistake: a dead Romanov is a romantic ideal. Maria is appealing to a romantic ideal. Putin is a ruthless man in every respect. And if Maria gets into bed with Putin to further her aspirations and those of her son, she will be in for the ride of her life. And I can predict right here and now that she will not hold the whip hand in that relationship (although I strongly suspect she does in her relationship with her son.)

Perhaps Georgy is wise to be as non-committal as he is.
 
Nicholas had many chances to end up making things easier for Russians and avert revolution, but he didn't. As for Maria and Putin, Maria is out of her mind to think that Putin gives a fig about the Romanovs; his very ancestors were involved in the destruction of the Imperial Family.
 
COUNTESS said:
So were the Romanovs, my friend. They were on an equal par. It is, too bad, that those who don't know history, have made a romantic ploy of this. They were sadistic, self indulging, anti-semtic, and ruled over this huge, backward nation for 3 milenia. People weren't willing to give up their lives if their lot was so great. Even good. The country revolted, not just a small handful. Now, the Soviet was no bargain, either. But, unfortunately, these people didn't have the experience to understand a democratic nation. As far as Maria, I have no, personal, idea of her motives, nor do you. But, what seems apparaent, and, quite humanly, plausible, is that she wants her son to be a Tsar. She is trying to sell the "romatic" idea of a benficent monarchy. She wants the best for her son, she wants what she was raised to think. Not unusual.
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Firstly, I do know my history and I think to imply someone is uneducated because they disagree with your point of view isn't good form. Secondly, you're talking about a dynasty that reigned for over 300 years with various personalities, you can't possibly make such a sweeping statement that they were all sadistic, anti-semitic, self-indulging leaders. Indeed, alot of Russians had life much better off under the Tsars than under the jack boot of communism and surely anyone can see that? It's actually impossible to know the number of people killed under Stalin (but you get the idea of how evil a regime it was when it was built on the deaths of five innocent children...). That's not to say the Russian Imperial system was totally flawless or that similar kinds of human rights abuses didn't take place, my point is that to say monarchy was better for Russia than communism isn't overly romantic or a ploy, it's my opinion based on the facts avaliable.

What really becomes a chore in this forum is the endless repetition of claims against Maria with absolutely no proof. You keep reciting parrot fashion your view that she has this negative, almost sinister, agenda but when you're asked to say why you think that and what your evidence is to support it, you can't give any. I think I've a pretty good idea of her motives based on my own personal research, yet you seem to have decided she's this wicked monstrous autocrat who'd sell her grandmother for a chance at being an Empress.
 
BeatrixFan said:
Firstly, I do know my history and I think to imply someone is uneducated because they disagree with your point of view isn't good form. Secondly, you're talking about a dynasty that reigned for over 300 years with various personalities, you can't possibly make such a sweeping statement that they were all sadistic, anti-semitic, self-indulging leaders. Indeed, alot of Russians had life much better off under the Tsars than under the jack boot of communism and surely anyone can see that? It's actually impossible to know the number of people killed under Stalin (but you get the idea of how evil a regime it was when it was built on the deaths of five innocent children...). That's not to say the Russian Imperial system was totally flawless or that similar kinds of human rights abuses didn't take place, my point is that to say monarchy was better for Russia than communism isn't overly romantic or a ploy, it's my opinion based on the facts avaliable.

What really becomes a chore in this forum is the endless repetition of claims against Maria with absolutely no proof. You keep reciting parrot fashion your view that she has this negative, almost sinister, agenda but when you're asked to say why you think that and what your evidence is to support it, you can't give any. I think I've a pretty good idea of her motives based on my own personal research, yet you seem to have decided she's this wicked monstrous autocrat who'd sell her grandmother for a chance at being an Empress.
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Wonderful words there! I think history education is sickeningly biased if it fails to recognise the evils of Communism and the fact that it was responsible for more deaths (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mengistu) than anything else man-made in history. I for one can never forgive Churchill, FDR and Eisenhower for what was done to dad's old country (Czech Republic) and half of Europe after 1945. Not to mention Stalin's genocidal policies towards Ukrainians, Chechens, etc. If people don't learn enough about the evils of Communism, it's because of Politically Correct thought pervading our society including our school system.

Communism and Nazism are two sides of the same coin. Both invent an "enemy class" for systematic persecution and extermination in the name of building a "new order" of their liking.
 
Depends on which religion you professed, and what you think is equitible. For Jews the Tsar and the Nazis same plane. Communism a bit better, not much. How do you think peasants lived. Why do you think there was a revolution? Letting the Russians overrun the eastern bloc countries, was a compromise, after a long and difficult war. They gave a lot of blood to the effort. That doesn't mean I like them. They murdered more than their share, so to speak. The Ukrainians murdered plenty of people for the Germans during WWII. They joined the Germans in persecution. A fact. Not politically correct. Eisenhower didn't make deals, he was a general not a head of state. As for Maria, she is a non-entity in most places. She has pushed herself forward for a reason. Not for love of anything, except what might be in it for her son, and that is a joke. Poor man. He is, also, a Hohenzollern, maybe she should see what is happening in Berlin. And, by the way, History Majors, do a lot of research. It is not Political Correctness. And, at my age, I lived through many things you read about.l
 
:previous:
Countess,
As usually your comments are astute. Everything depends on a complex picture with infinite variables. When it comes to nations living the Caucasus mountains (Chechens, Karachays, Ossetians, etc), it would be fair to say that Communists copied the Tsarit poliicies.
 
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COUNTESS said:
Depends on which religion you professed, and what you think is equitible...
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Eisenhower was involved in approving Operation Keelhaul. That alone is unforgivable. And the fact Communism was forced onto half of Europe, including dad's old country (he fled in 1968) left me with a bitterness and rage.

No side was angelic in World War II. The Soviets committed horrendous crimes, as were some of the Allied bombings.

Let's not forget too that as recently as the 1980s, Latin American countries like Guatemala and El Salvador were slaughtering thousands of their own citizens, and especially in Guatemala they were not much better than what was happening in World War II, what they were doing to their native population. And the fact that those responsible have never been punished makes one even angrier.
 
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I admit that I sometimes don't know what to make of her and wonder if whether or not she really wants what is best for her son or wants power for herself. To me she is in over her head and dealing with people that are likely going to end up putting her son at risk for real trouble. Putin is not plyaing around and he is staunchly nationalist and will not share power with anyone. If she is seeking social/symbolic power, good; if she is seeking political power/influence, then she is putting herself and her son at risk in regards to their very lives.
 
Maria is very savvy and well understands the issues in Russia. I do not believe she is seeking any official role or recognition in the existing governmental structure as the Russian Crown. She knows a real restoration is not possible at this time nor is Russia ready for a constitutional democracy.

I think she is seeking official recognition of the cultural and religious role represented by the Imperial House, with perhaps some support of the royal endeavors. However, this too is very unlikely to happen and she knows that.

That's why she lives in Spain and not Russia.
 
AristoCat said:
I admit that I sometimes don't know what to make of her and wonder if whether or not she really wants what is best for her son or wants power for herself. To me she is in over her head and dealing with people that are likely going to end up putting her son at risk for real trouble. Putin is not plyaing around and he is staunchly nationalist and will not share power with anyone. If she is seeking social/symbolic power, good; if she is seeking political power/influence, then she is putting herself and her son at risk in regards to their very lives.
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Interesting observation. I happen to think she wants some sort of Regent acknowledgement/throne/etc. however it would be for a non-existent throne.
 
I sometimes wonder if whether or not she would be comfortable in an officially reinforced role. Politics in the East has always been a bloody business and something that anyone with brains would end up staying well clear of if they are not entirely sure of what they are doing. An official, established monarchy would largely be at the direction of the government and I do not think that she has the ability to end up really avoiding the temptation of trying to edge her way into political influence. Social power should be where it begins and ends, but what if Maria ends up getting the title, but then edging in for power? She should (to me) play it safe and let her son continue to live his life and enjoy what they have already, which is to be buried in Russia and they were able to hold ceremonies for Nicholas II and his family.
 
AristoCat said:
I sometimes wonder if whether or not she would be comfortable in an officially reinforced role. Politics in the East has always been a bloody business and something that anyone with brains would end up staying well clear of if they are not entirely sure of what they are doing. An official, established monarchy would largely be at the direction of the government and I do not think that she has the ability to end up really avoiding the temptation of trying to edge her way into political influence. Social power should be where it begins and ends, but what if Maria ends up getting the title, but then edging in for power? She should (to me) play it safe and let her son continue to live his life and enjoy what they have already, which is to be buried in Russia and they were able to hold ceremonies for Nicholas II and his family.
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Another great observation, AristoCat. I've bolded the parts with which I agree most.

Putin plays for keeps and he plays for the future. Maria has a strong (if not entirely based-in-fact) sense of the past but I believe a naive and watery view of a potential future, like an Impressionist painting, rosy and warm. The mismatch of visions could only be a fatal one, figuratively if not literally.

I suppose if you've lived your entire life for one dream - restoration to a perception of entitlement and perogatives - it would be very, very difficult to curb the grasp once it feels to be so very close.

I note that her son is careful on these matters, more so than Maria.
 
I note that her son is careful on these matters, more so than Maria
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I think Georgi just wants a solid lifestyle and he sees things more clearly than his mother does. I appreciate your compliments in regards to my observations and I think Maria has the right intentions, but she lacks a discernment as to the reality of Eastern politics and apparently underestimates just how different things are.
 
I read the traslation in English. Almost, makes no sense.
 
:previous:
Georgi was there too.

v Grand Duchess Maria, Grand Duke Georgi & Mrs Medvedev, Madrid December 2011
Picture courtesy of the President of Russia website.
© President of Russia website and reproduced here in accordance with the site's copyright conditions.
 

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She never lets up, does she? Prince Rostislav has been living and working in Russia for some time and he was the first Romanov to move back. If this woman doesn't let up, she might end up pushing everyone who pays attention to this too far.
 
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