Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna: Current Claimant to the Throne 1: 2003 - Oct 2006


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I wonder if Maria will ever move to Russia permanently? Or at least take a residence there as well as having her houses in France and Spain.
 
BeatrixFan said:
I wonder if Maria will ever move to Russia permanently? Or at least take a residence there as well as having her houses in France and Spain.

She should it would help her cause so much if she became as visible as possible to the people of Russia. Residing in another country looks bad especially to Russians who are historically fanatic about there homeland.
 
Hello lord rankin :)

Grand Duchess Maria was posed that question by an interviewer in 2005. Below is the exchange:
INTERVIEWER: The question many people are asking today is: why do members of the Russian Imperial House live outside Russia? Have the Romanovs not yet forgiven Russia for their exile? Or is it that life is more comfortable abroad?
MARIA: Let Me begin with the fact that it was not Russia that exiled us, but the political regime that came to power by means of a coup. To those who debate the comfort of our exile I could suggest that they try it themselves, but I would not wish such a fate on them. If I were a private person, guided only by my own wants and desires, I could have returned to the Motherland at any time. But as the head of the Russian Imperial House, I am duty-bound to preserve its dignity. If that dignity were to be lost, then what service could we ever hope to offer Russia? Therefore, before we return home permanently, it is necessary that the state determine its relationship to Our dynasty.
Source: Imperial House
 
I don't know if it was posted before:
The Russian Imperial Succession http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/gotha/russuclw.htm

and
"The next member of the family in terms of primogeniture was Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich. However, some argue that because Kirill's mother had never converted to Orthodoxy all three of her sons were ineligible to succeed. Furthermore, some argue that even if Kirill was entitled to succeed as heir, his children were not, because Kirill was married to a first cousin and married her without permission of the Emperor, and furthermore swore loyalty to the Duma before Nicholas II had abdicated, and all these factors are seen by some as prohibiting the accession of Kirill's descendants. While many people eventually recognized Kirill as heir, others persisted in believing that Grand Duke Dimitri Pavlovich was the rightful heir.
Currently there are no surviving male members of the family born of equal marriages. It is said that unless a member of the family makes an equal marriage, with the permission of the Emperor, the issue of that marriage is not eligible to succeed. This raises the question: if it's unclear who is the Emperor, how can his permission be obtained? For instance, the late Prince Paul Dimitrievich Ilyinsky is considered to be the product of an unequal marriage; but, if Grand Duke Kirill was ineligible to succeed, then Grand Duke Dimitri himself was the head of the house when he married, and needed no one's permission to do so, and it can be argued that the head of the house can marry whomsoever he pleases.
Lastly, though few members of the Romanov family ever seem to care about this, they all appear to be dynasts of the old duchy of Holstein-Gottorp, through their ancestor Emperor Peter III, and thus entitled to call themselves Princes of Holstein-Gottorp."
From http://pages.prodigy.net/ptheroff/gotha/russia.html
 
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"Wladimir died in 1992 leaving an only daughter, Maria, whom he had titled Grand Duchess of Russia and declared "Guardian of the Throne" in 1970. This decision might have been considered imprudent since at the time there were several living dynasts who, at least in theory, might have contracted alliances with Princesses of "corresponding rank" and fathered sons who would have enjoyed a prior right of succession. It was this action that led several dynasts, who had hitherto accepted the Grand Duke's authority as Head of the House without challenge, to join with the dissenting Prince Roman and protest at his action.
Following the death of Prince Vassili of Russia, the last male Russian dynast other than Wladimir himself, Maria was declared heiress to the throne by virtue of the succession law under which the Crown would pass to the nearest female dynast to the last male of the House. The position of the Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna as Head of the Imperial House is acknowledged by most serious Russian Monarchist organizations and by most of those Heads of Royal Houses which continue to maintain relations with the Imperial House.
At the same time, as is widely known, there is a dissenting position which denies that the Grand Duchess is a member of the Imperial House and that she cannot therefore be its Head. This view is taken by the "Romanoff Family Association" which is composed of most of the male line descendants of those Grand Dukes and Princes of Russia who enjoyed these titles at the time of the Russian Revolution but who made marriages which did not transmit dynastic rights to their issue. Although some of the members of the Romanoff Family Association bear titles which they had been given by the Grand Dukes Kyrill and Wladimir, none of them can be considered Russian dynasts. Nonetheless, they are each entitled to the titles of Prince or Princess of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp, Heir of Norway, Duke or Duchess of Schleswig, Holstein, Stormarn and Ditmarschen, Count or Countess of Oldenburg and Delmenhorst
The present head of the Dynasty, Maria Wladimirovna, Grand Duchess of Russia, has one son by her marriage to Prince Franz Wilhelm of Prussia (which ended in divorce), the Grand Duke George. There is one other living Russian dynast, HSH Princess Vera Ivanovna of Russia, aged 92, sister of the late Prince Vsvevolode, who lives in New York. "
From: http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/gotha/russucc.htm
 
magnik said:
There is one other living Russian dynast, HSH Princess Vera Ivanovna of Russia, aged 92, sister of the late Prince Vsvevolode, who lives in New York.

The article is for the most part correct, but on this it isn't.
The late Prince Vsevolod (1914-1973) didn't have a sister named Vera. His sister is Princess Ekaterina Ivanovna (b. 1915) who lives in Uruguay.

The late Princess Vera Constantinovna (1906-d. New York 2001) was Vsevolod's aunt.

Sources:
Theroff Gotha-Russia
Genealogy of the Imperial House of Russia
 
In my opinion, we can certainly accept Grand Duke Vladimir's right as the de-facto Tsar and Head of the Imperial House to elevate his daughter and wife to the rank and title of HIH Grand Duchesses of Russia.

But the fact remains that Leonida was not from a reigning, sovereign royal house, as defined by the Pauline Law, and the Bagrations were inscribed in the Fifth Book of Nobility in Imperial Russia. Unless Vladimir had formally changed the Pauline Law, there is no way the Russian throne would have passed to Maria after Vladimir's death.

The throne would have passed through the female line through his late sister, Grand Duchess Kira, to the German royal houses. Either HH Duke Paul Vladimir of Oldenburg or HR&IH Georg-Friedrich von Hohenzollern, Prince of Prussia, would have been the new Tsar, provided they were willing to convert to Orthodoxy and had married equally.
 
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Vladimir was titular Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias. If he appointed his successor as Maria and made the way clear for her to become titular Empress when he died, then we have to accept that as his decision as Head of the Imperial House and as the Tsar-in-exile.
 
And Nicholas Romanov has even less standing than Maria could claim to be the de-jure Tsar. Not only is he unquestionably morganatic, but he has no title since his father never sought one from Grand Duke Cyril or Grand Duke Vladimir.

He has no standing to be a Prince of Russia with the rank of Highness.
 
There wasn't any need for Wladimir to elevate anyone. When he married Leonida she automatically become H.I.H. the Pious Lady Grand Duchess Leonida Georgievna of Russia, and when their daughter was born she was inscribed into the Genealogical Book of the Russian Imperial House (with a Grand Duke as a godfather and the Queen of Bulgaria as godmother). It wouldn't make any sense for Wladimir to have elevated a morganatic wife and daughter to Imperial rank, that just isn't how things are done.

You are correct that Leonida isn't from a reigning, sovereign house. She is from a formerly reigning, sovereign house that had been a reigning, sovereign house for over one thousand years (quite longer than the Romanovs). Formerly reigning houses are fine "equal" marriage material, Alexander III had wanted for his eldest son to marry Hélène d'Orléans at one time. And you're correct that her family was inscribed into Book of Nobility. However, the Bagrations were illegally (under the treaty with Ekaterina II) deprived (by the much loved Pavel :rolleyes: ) of their sovereign status, which means that the events that transpired afterwards had no legal bearing.

For example, when Princess Tatiana Constantinovna married Prince Constantin Alexandrovitch Bagration-Moukhransky, Nicholas II asked Constantin to sign the marriage register as Prince of Georgia. It is true that Tatiana renounced her rights, however, she did so because she was marrying a foreign prince not because the marriage was morganatic. Tatiana's father, Grand Duke Constantine Constantinovich, also made references in his diary that Nicholas II didn't consider Tatiana's marriage as unequal because the groom was descended from a formerly ruling house (see Greg King).

Wladimir also had to deal with the question of the equality of the Bagrations in the early 40s (before his own marriage) when he was asked by Ferdinand, Infant of Spain and Prince of Bavaria, concerning whether his Maria de las Mercedes, Infanta of Spain and Princess of Bavaria, would be contracting an equal marriage if she married a Prince Bagration-Moukhransky. Wladimir concluded that the marriage would indeed be equal (for the reasons I already gave). Therefore in 1946 Infanta Maria de las Mercedes contracted an equal marriage with Prince Irakli Bagration-Moukhransky, the only brother of Wladimir's soon-to-be wife.
 
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Photos of Maria (and family) at some royal events:


Maria with her son and mother at her father's funeral (29 May 1992)


Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna with the Duke of Braganza at the wedding of Duke Friedrich of Württemberg and Princess Marie zu Wied (13 Nov 1993)


Grand Duchesses Maria and Leonida at the marriage of Infanta Cristina of Spain (4 Oct 1997)


Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna and Grand Duke Georgi Mikhailovich at the 90th birthday of the late Comte de Paris (5 Jul 1998)


The Grand Duchess with Letizia Ortiz on the eve of the marriage of the latter to the Prince of the Asturias (22 May 2004)

Source: Corbis; Getty Images
 
More photos:

the family at St Briac in the very early 90s


Helena, Georgi, Maria, and Leonida at their Madrid residence in 1997


Maria, Georgi, and Leonida in Moscow in 2000

Source: Corbis
 
Grand Duchess Maria is certantly a very elegant lady. I also noticed how close she is to her parents and her son. And he is lucky to have inherited that extraordinary mane of hair from his mother and grandmother's side. Any recent pictures of Maria and Georgi?
 
I love that photograph of Maria greeting Letizia! So grand Letizia looks very happy to see Maria. I think I'd be rather intimidated by the titular Empress and Autocrat of All the Russias throwing her arms around me!
 
The successor of Russian throne

Hello!

I write very big and serious letter on the successor of Russian throne. I hope that my clause is pleasant to you. I hope that you will leave this letter at this forum.

I live in Russia in which history there was Russian empire. Therefore the question on the successor of Russian throne very much me interests. I have read many different materials of very serious authors which the question on successors of Russian throne and Russian imperial family too interests. I wish to tell, that there are many different points of view on this theme. Therefore I wish to tell to you about the monarchic organizations existing in Russia. In Russia many the monarchic organizations, thus each of them has the sight at problems of inheritance of Russian throne.

One of these monarchic organizations supports descendants of grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich. This is Vladimir Kirillovich with wife Leonida, daughter Maria and grandson George. Only the family of Grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich is considered the unique heir-at-law of Russian imperial family and Russian imperial throne. But there are some very serious monarchic organizations which deny the rights Maria and its son George on Russian imperial throne. I wish to tell about their arguments against Maria Vladimirovna and her son George.

First, their ancestor grand duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich was a member of Russian imperial family and the native brother of Russian emperor Alexander III. Except for family of Tsar Alexander III, grand duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich was most close to Russian imperial throne. But Grand duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich had very serious disagreements with imperial family. Vladimir Aleksandrovich married German princess who has taken a new name Maria Pavlovna. But there is one small "but". The wife of grand duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich was the Lutheran and has refused to pass in Russian Orthodox Church. This problem has seriously complicated chances Vladimir Aleksandrovich to borrow Russian imperial throne because Russian imperial throne can be borrowed only by prince who is brought up as orthodox Russian, and still also married to orthodox Russian princess. But Maria Pavlovna remained the Lutheran still long time. Only in 1908 she has accepted Orthodoxy. On a twist of fate, serious and terrible illness of the successor of Tsar Nicholas II was the unique reason of transition Maria Pavlovna from a Lutheranism in Orthodoxy. This circumstance gave the certain chance to son of Vladimir Aleksandrovich and Maria Pavlovna Cyril Vladimirovich to borrow Russian imperial throne in case of death of Alexei and scandalous and morganatic marriage of the brother of Tsar Nicholas II.

Secondly, Cyril Vladimirovich has made the roughest mistake when he married the cousin. Under laws of Russian Orthodox Church cousins cannot marry, because such marriages are very close to incest. Sovereign Nicholas II was categorically against such marriage. When this marriage became the come to pass fact, Sovereign Nicholas II has told, that cannot recognize this marriage and deprives their posterity of the right to inheritance of Russian imperial throne.

Thirdly, Cyril Vladimirovich has betraid Russian imperial family and Russian monarchy. In 1917 this grand duke had efficient Russian divisions of guards and had magnificent chances to liquidate the Petersburg disorders and revolts, but he has come over to the party of revolution. Thus, Russian imperial family has got the Egalite.

Fourthly, the son of grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich Vladimir married the Georgian woman who had very doubtful reputation and not less doubtful origin. Its wife worked in a night club as the dancer. Her first husband was the rich American businessman who was very close to those financial circles which have supported Russian revolution and overthrow of an imperial monarchy. Her native sister was the wife of Stalinist executioner Beria. This person bears the responsibility for sufferings of tens millions Russian people in the Siberian state camps. Vladimir Kirillovich secretly married the Georgian woman in one orthodox (Serbian, instead of Russian!) churches in Switzerland. But their marriage cannot be equal. Thus, Vladimir Kirillovich and his father had no rights to Russian imperial throne.

Fifthly, their daughter Maria Vladimirovna occurs from a left-handed marriage and has no rights to Russian imperial throne.

Sixthly, Maria is a member of Prussian royal family and the German imperial house owing to its marriage for Prussian prince. Maria should carry surname Hohenzollern. In this situation Maria cannot be the head of the Russian imperial house.

Seventhly, son of Maria and her Prussian husband is a member of Prussian royal family and the German imperial house. His present name is George Hohenzollern. Therefore George Hohenzollern cannot be a member of the Russian imperial house.

In-eighth, in case of employment of Russian imperial throne by George Hohenzollern the Prussian royal family and the German imperial house will start to reign in Russia.

In-ninth, the Russian imperial house has almost stopped the existence because almost all descendants of Russian tsars and grand dukes are married left-handed marriages and have lost the rights to Russian imperial throne.

In-tenth, it is senseless to search for the successor of Russian imperial throne among descendants of Russian great princesses who have married the European princes and have taken a new name (and can be, still also send from Orthodoxy to other belief). Such descendants much also should be not less than 100.

In-eleventh if Russian monarchy will be sometime restored Russian throne can be borrowed any by an outstanding person (as in case of France and Napoleon Bonaparte).

But there are still also some other monarchic organizations.

It is the All-Russia Monarchic Center which considers, that the German princes (Oldenburg dukes) are heir-at-laws of Russian imperial family and Russian imperial throne.

This Russian Imperial Home guard which considers, that only the God knows, who the successor of Russian throne, that only the God will give Tsar for Russian people, that only the God knows, when Russia will restore the monarchy. These monarchists are opponents of transfer of Russian imperial throne to any European sovereign family, and still also consider legitimist ideas senseless and nothing meaning. They consider that if to follow each letter of legitimist laws, Russia can receive tsar from any European aristocrats who can not know Russia, Russian people, Russian orthodox belief, Russian culture, Russian outlook and etc.

You liked my clause? I hope that you do not remove my clause.
 
It's a matter of historical record that Nicholas II recognized the conversion of Maria Pavlovna to Orthodoxy in 1908. Furthermore, Cyril and Victoria's marriage was recognized by Nicholas II and she was granted appropriate imperial rank as a Grand Duchess of Russia.

Their marriage met the requirements of the Pauline Law, but Cyril was banished and stripped of his rank by Nicholas II because The Empress Alexandra was furious at Victoria for divorcing her brother, Ernst of Hesse. Nicholas reversed himself on this matter as World War I approached.

There is no question HIH Grand Duke Vladimir was the rightful Head of the Imperial House in exile after the death of his father, Grand Duke Cyril. The various political accusations hurled against Cyril are meaningless in the context of the imperial succession. Under the Pauline Law, Cyril was automatically the new de-jure Emperor as the surviving senior line male after the death of Nicholas II, the Tsarevitch and Grand Duke Michael.

With regard to Vladimir's marriage to Princess Leonida Bagration, there is no doubt it was not an equal marriage to a royal house as defined in the Pauline Law. Divorce was not an obstacle to marriage in the Orthodox Church and Leonida was already Orthodox.

Vladimir was the de-jure Emperor and ruled the marriage was equal, however, this was controversial since some of his cousins had also married Russian noblewoman inscribed in the Books of Nobility and their marriages were not equal.

Maria Vladimirovna is certainly an honorable woman who has carried on her father's responsibilities with great distinction. She may not be the qualified heir to the imperial throne, but has done much to keep the flame burning, which is more than you can say of her cousins.
 
I'd disagree with you Russian that Maria has "no rights" to the throne because she most certainly does. Branchg, you say that she isn't "qualified" and I'm not sure what you mean by that. As I see it, she's most definately qualified. She's a faithful Orthodox, she handles engagements extremely well, she handles the media well, she has the breeding, the demeanour and the heir.
 
Russian said:
Thirdly, Cyril Vladimirovich has betraid Russian imperial family and Russian monarchy. In 1917 this grand duke had efficient Russian divisions of guards and had magnificent chances to liquidate the Petersburg disorders and revolts, but he has come over to the party of revolution. Thus, Russian imperial family has got the Egalite.
The notion that Cyril somehow betrayed the (rapidly deteriorating, it must be said) monarchy is rather ridiculous. First of all, Cyril had two young daughters and a pregnant wife to consider during this time. Secondly, the Emperor abdicated a few days after Cyril placed his troops at the disposal of the provisional government in the hopes that it could somehow restore order to a capital that was descending into anarchy very quickly. I have also seen it said that there was a red flag over the house that the Grand Duke and his family were living in. I don't see the big deal about this, many Russian notables did such things in order to temporarily save their homes/lives from the mobs.

Russian said:
Fourthly, the son of grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich Vladimir married the Georgian woman who had very doubtful reputation and not less doubtful origin. Its wife worked in a night club as the dancer. Her first husband was the rich American businessman who was very close to those financial circles which have supported Russian revolution and overthrow of an imperial monarchy. Her native sister was the wife of Stalinist executioner Beria. This person bears the responsibility for sufferings of tens millions Russian people in the Siberian state camps. Vladimir Kirillovich secretly married the Georgian woman in one orthodox (Serbian, instead of Russian!) churches in Switzerland. But their marriage cannot be equal. Thus, Vladimir Kirillovich and his father had no rights to Russian imperial throne.
Leonida's profession prior to her 2nd marriage has nothing to do with anything. Also, her origins are quite clear, she was the 2nd daughter of Prince George Bagrationi of Mukhrani and his wife Elena Zlotnicki, there has never been any doubt about that. I don't see how her marriage to Mr. Kirby is relevant, the man had previously been married to another Bagration. Also, Leonida's sister Maria never married a Beria (1st husband: Alexander Ivanovitch Smirnov; 2nd husband: Pavel Platonovitch Domershikov; 3rd husband: Solomon Bagratovitch Virsaladze; 4th husband: Vassili Korganashvili). Besides I don't see what Maria Bagration's marriages have to do with the Romanovs. How was Wladimir's marriage secret? You say that V & L's marriage was unequal, let me just say that the huge majority of the members of the Gotha disagree.

Russian said:
Fifthly, their daughter Maria Vladimirovna occurs from a left-handed marriage and has no rights to Russian imperial throne.
This has been addressed so many times I don't think I'll do so again :rolleyes:.

Russian said:
Sixthly, Maria is a member of Prussian royal family and the German imperial house owing to its marriage for Prussian prince. Maria should carry surname Hohenzollern. In this situation Maria cannot be the head of the Russian imperial house.
Wladimir, Maria, Franz Friedrich, and Louis Ferdinand as well as his grandson would disagree with that statement. Maria's husband signed a renunciation of his Prussian rights prior to his marriage. The renunciation was recognized by both Wladimir and Louis Ferdinand. If you say that Maria should be a Hohenzollern, then you say that Elizabeth II and all her children should be Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburgs. I doubt that you would do so.

Russian said:
Seventhly, son of Maria and her Prussian husband is a member of Prussian royal family and the German imperial house. His present name is George Hohenzollern. Therefore George Hohenzollern cannot be a member of the Russian imperial house.
Georgi's father renounced.
I can tell you with 100% accuracy that Georgi's legal last name is Romanov. If you doubt that then write to the Grand Duchess and ask for a copy of her son's vital records.

Russian said:
In-eighth, in case of employment of Russian imperial throne by George Hohenzollern the Prussian royal family and the German imperial house will start to reign in Russia.
See above posts. Also, then in your opinion the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg is soon to reign in the UK.

 
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Almost all of the blood royal in Europe is descended from the German or Danish royal houses anyway, including the Romanovs.
 
Descended yes but that doesn't mean she is German.
 
BeatrixFan said:
Descended yes but that doesn't mean she is German.

...and from what I have read on how passionate she is about her family history, in her heart she is as Russian as the Volga. :cool:
 
To say she is German is a rather generalistic accusation. In all honesty you could say the same about a lot of Royal Famly's in Europe. The Windsors for instance are of more German ancestry. The Romanovs fall into this category as well. There dynasty is more properly described as th House of Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov. But Maria is most definetly not German, Her mother being Georgian and Her father the product of a Russian Grand Duke and an English princess. Besides when did a monarch have to be from the country they rule? Look back and you will find that that is far from the norm.
 
lord_rankin said:
To say she is German is a rather generalistic accusation. In all honesty you could say the same about a lot of Royal Famly's in Europe. The Windsors for instance are of more German ancestry. The Romanovs fall into this category as well. There dynasty is more properly described as th House of Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov. But Maria is most definetly not German, Her mother being Georgian and Her father the product of a Russian Grand Duke and an English princess. Besides when did a monarch have to be from the country they rule? Look back and you will find that that is far from the norm.

That's so true.
And something that gets my attention about her cousins-detractors is that she seems to be the center of all their anger not because of her claims but because of her high profile status. In some way if we draw a parallel to other claimants like Simeon in Bulgaria, the Orleans family in France, etc. The diferrence between them and Maria is plain and simple she is a woman. Which brings up the issue if she is being more attacked by her relatives for being a female pretender than for being a pretender at all? :question: I mean, how many Female Pretenders do we know these days? ...well, there is a certain Princess Aiko still strugling to make a mark in history herself.

Interesting thing to point out too is that Grand Duchess Maria does not get the negative press other pretenders get, like Victor Emanuel in Italy or Constantine in Greece. All the bad vibes are coming from her Romanov family.
 
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Since there are so many questions about the Romanoff line,
is anyone in Russia considering the Ruriki line as another source?
Someone from the ancient Princely families of Russia might be interesting :)
 
Dear friends!

I think, you consider Maria and her son as heir-at-laws of Russian imperial throne because you know only about them. But I have small remarks in this occasion. I think, the majority of participants of Royal Forums lives not in Russia, therefore, probably, many of them do not know, how problems of inheritance of Russian imperial throne are considered in Russia. Thus much serious authors do not consider Maria and her son as successors of Russian imperial family and successors of Russian imperial throne. I wish to tell about very serious arguments against Maria and her son George as successors of Russian imperial throne.

First, I have read through many serious materials of very serious authors which very seriously were interested in problems of inheritance of Russian imperial throne. Alas, all authors of these materials always are firm opponents of a nominee of Maria and her son, as successors of Russian imperial throne.

Secondly, I saw a photocopy of the resolution of Sovereign Nikolas II in which he is written, that Sovereign cannot recognize marriage of Cyril Vladimirovich and his cousin because marriage between the cousin brother and the sister is an incest under laws of Russian Orthodox Church. The posterity from its marriage has been deprived the right to Russian imperial title, it received only a title of princes and the annual maintenance. Therefore their son cannot be the successor of Russian imperial throne because has been deprived such rights at will of Sovereign Emperor.

Thirdly, it is necessary to consider Vladimir Kirillovich's marriage on its Georgian woman. I wish to tell, that Leonida occurs from an ancient nobiliary sort which is a collateral line of a dynasty of the Georgian tsars. I wish to tell, that at connection of Georgia to Russia in 1783 the Georgian population of all estates automatically became the citizen of the Russian sovereigns. Therefore descendants of the Georgian tsars became citizens of the Russian sovereigns. Therefore marriages between members of Russian imperial family and descendants of the Georgian tsars cannot be equal. I wish to tell about marriage of great princess of imperial blood and the representative of this most Georgian sort. This marriage has been recognized not equal, therefore great princess has refused the rights to Russian imperial throne. After a while the escaped members of Russian imperial family have appeared in emigration after revolution and overthrows of a monarchy. After a while Grand duke Cyril has proclaimed itself emperor, and this grand duke HAS been deprived SUCH RIGHTS AT WILL of SOVEREIGN. Its son Vladimir was only the son of grand duke who HAS been deprived SUCH RIGHTS AT WILL of SOVEREIGN. What rights to a nonexistent throne Vladimir who was only the son of grand duke Cyril, DEPRIVED SUCH RIGHTS AT WILL of SOVEREIGN has? This Vladimir has written a paper in which recognizes descendants of the Georgian tsars equal to NONEXISTENT Russian imperial family. After that Vladimir married the Georgian woman. Therefore daughter of Vladimir and Leonida has no rights to a nonexistent Russian imperial throne.

Therefore I cannot consider Maria and her son as heir-at-laws of Russian imperial throne.
 
Nicholas II denied approval of Cyril's marriage to Princess Victoria because of her divorce from Grand Duke Ernst of Hesse, who was Empress Alexandra's brother. There was never an objection from the Church, who served The Tsar in any case. Once the Emperor accorded his approval (which is a matter of written, historical record), the matter was closed.

Furthermore, Nicholas II also issued an imperial order to the Senate that Victoria was granted the title of Orthodox Grand Duchess and their daughter was a princess of the blood imperial with the rank of Highness.

Nicholas II most certainly did not recognize Princess Tatiana's marriage in 1911 to a Bagration prince as equal. She renounced her rights to the throne and the Emperor declared their children would have the style of a Prince/Princess Bagration. He did (supposedly) assure Grand Duke Constantine privately that he would not consider the marriage to be morganatic, but he did not act officially.
 
matryoshka said:
Since there are so many questions about the Romanoff line,
is anyone in Russia considering the Ruriki line as another source?
Someone from the ancient Princely families of Russia might be interesting :)

This week I was reading about the origins of the famous Almanac Gotha, the who is who in royalty. One interesting point was on the case for mediatized families and how many of the great and ancient Russian families were not even mentioned but even the smallest German princedom had an entry. This gave the German princes a leverage to marry royals as equal marriage. By leaving out the Russian princes of the same rank as the counterpart German princes, the Gotha placed them at a lower level. Thus, unnequality of marriage that cost quite a few couples their succesion rights. So many of these ancient Houses older than the Romanovs ended up out of the competition to be viewed for a possible replacement of that dynasty.
 
Mediatised Houses

Toledo said:
This week I was reading about the origins of the famous Almanac Gotha, the who is who in royalty. One interesting point was on the case for mediatized families and how many of the great and ancient Russian families were not even mentioned but even the smallest German princedom had an entry. This gave the German princes a leverage to marry royals as equal marriage. By leaving out the Russian princes of the same rank as the counterpart German princes, the Gotha placed them at a lower level.
Without getting too far away from the topic, the term 'mediatised' relates largely to those German and Austrian families who ruled sovereign territories prior to the Napoleonic upheaval and whose lands were absorbed into larger territories ruled by other sovereign princes. The granting of equal marriage rights to these Houses is a Holy Roman Empire construct, as were their titles of 'Prince of the Holy Empire' or 'Count of the Holy Empire', and therefore has no relevance to Russian Princely Houses.
 
Excuse me, but I wish to write new the letter. :)
I hope, that this the letter remains at Royal forums. :rolleyes:
I wish to tell to you about some monarchic organizations which exist in Russia. :rolleyes:


The All-Russia Monarchic Center is one of such monarchic organizations. Monarchists from the All-Russia Monarchic Center consider, that the Russian Imperial House does not exist. They consider, that the name national Russian imperial dynasties (Romanovs) has been taken by the German sovereign house of Holstein-Hottorp. The representative of this German family was the nephew of empress Elizabeth which was the daughter of Russian tsar Peter I. Peter I had two daughters Elizabeth and Anna. Elizabeth was Russian Empress in 1740 1761. Its younger sister Anna has married German prince from Holstein-Hottorp at home. They had a son who became Emperor Peter III. Peter III and its wife Ekaterina (the future Russian empress) were Germans by birth. Their son and grandsons still also married the German princesses. Only wife Alexander III was the Danish princess. Last Russian Emperor Nikolay II was Russian of all on 1/256, and still also was married to the German princess. Their children were Russian of all on 1/512. As a matter of fact, Germans reigned in Russia till 1917. Therefore monarchists from the All-Russia Monarchic Center consider Oldenburg Dukes as close relatives Holstein-Hottorp of the house. Therefore monarchists from the All-Russia Monarchic Center consider Oldenburg Dukes as heir-at-laws of Russian Imperial Family and Russian Imperial Throne.

But still also there is other monarchic organization which refers to as Russian Imperial Home guard. Monarchists from Russian Imperial Home guard are categorical opponents of the invitation of any European sovereign family on Russian throne. These monarchists consider, that only the God knows, who the successor of Russian imperial throne, that only the God knows, when Russia will restore the monarchy, that only the God will give Tsar for Russian people. Therefore these monarchists are opponents legitimist laws because consider, that if to follow each letter of legitimist laws, Russia can receive tsar from any European sovereign family which can not know Russian, Russian orthodox belief, Russian culture, Russian traditions and customs and similar to volume.
 
Toledo said:
This week I was reading about the origins of the famous Almanac Gotha, the who is who in royalty. One interesting point was on the case for mediatized families and how many of the great and ancient Russian families were not even mentioned but even the smallest German princedom had an entry. This gave the German princes a leverage to marry royals as equal marriage. By leaving out the Russian princes of the same rank as the counterpart German princes, the Gotha placed them at a lower level. Thus, unnequality of marriage that cost quite a few couples their succesion rights. So many of these ancient Houses older than the Romanovs ended up out of the competition to be viewed for a possible replacement of that dynasty.

Yes, a mistake was made in the Alamanach de Gotha printing but the Gotha is not the final determinant of who should reign. By the way, the remaining princely houses of ancient Russia were printed in the 2001 Alamanach de Gotha (yellow).
 
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