Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna: Current Claimant to the Throne 1: 2003 - Oct 2006

[Charlottesville]

I think it is somewhat sad that this woman has spent her entire life fighting for a throne which no longer exists. Why should their be a pretender to the Romanov throne? Do people still have hopes that the Romanovs will once again be autocrats of all the Russias?

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Charlottesville

Do people still have hopes that the Romanovs will once again be autocrats of all the Russias?

I don't think she would waste her life doing something that no one supports, that said I think her Russian supporters are not that numberable. I mean she does carry out charitable activities but I don't know how beloved that has made her.

[Avalon]

I don't think she's got many supporters in Russia. I lived in Russia for a couple of years so I know the mood there. Very few Russians have vagually heard about her. But they simply don't take her (and other pretenders) seriously. And they don't care too much about them.

[Charlottesville]

hmmm... I read the Romanov family looks to Prince Nicholas Romanov as the family's pretender. But according to their own laws, wouldn't Marie be the true claimant? Of course, I guess the answer to that question would be the same answer as to the question, "Was Grand Duke Cyril the rightful pretender to the Romanov throne?"

[Charlottesville]

Does anyone know if there are any good books out there on the subject of Grand Duchess Marie and Grand Duke George?

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Charlottesville

Does anyone know if there are any good books out there on the subject of Grand Duchess Marie and Grand Duke George?

There is a chapter on Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna in the book The Grand Duchesses by Arturo Beéche, published by Eurohistory 2004 (great book; see Amazon).

There is also a section on Maria in Royalty Who Wait: The 21 Heads of Formerly Regnant Houses of Europe by Olga Opfell (also see Amazon).

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Charlottesville

hmmm... I read the Romanov family looks to Prince Nicholas Romanov as the family's pretender. But according to their own laws, wouldn't Marie be the true claimant? Of course, I guess the answer to that question would be the same answer as to the question, "Was Grand Duke Cyril the rightful pretender to the Romanov throne?"

The Romanov Family Association (composed of some non-dynasts) recognize Nicholas as the Head of the Family, not, however, as pretender. Only someone who is ignorant concerning the Pauline Laws would advocate Nicholas as pretender (for that matter I think that I read somewhere that he is a republican anyways).

[RussianHistoryBuff]

Maria Vladimirovna is true head of the House of Romanov because no matter what any succession laws, specifications, et cetera say, the TRUE laws of succession have always been changable by the Head of the House of Romanov. When Nicholas II died in 1918, he had previously recognized Kirill Vladimirovich Romanov as an heir to the throne. So being that Kirill's marriage was forgiven, and being that law has always been in the power of the Head of the Romanov House, Kirill Vladimirovich, Vladimir Kirillovich, Maria Vladimirovna, and Georgi Romanov are all legitimate heirs. Because each Head of the Romanov House recognized their child as their successor, Maria Vladimirovna is the Head of the House of Romanov. In researching the history of succession, I have studied the Czars prior to the Romanov dynasty, and all the way back to Kievan Russia. This conclusion is unfortunate, because I want Nicholas Romanoff of Switzerland to be the legitimate head.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Von Schlesian

This is quite true. I am in quite close contact with very strong supporters of Grand Duchess Maria who also feel the opposite is true. That Prince Nicholas Romanov (due to his morganatic birth), is also un-rightfully referred to as the Head of the Imperial family, and not a legitimate heir (according to the statutes of 1797).
In my opinion, if morganatic marriage affects the Royal House of Hohenzollern, it should affect the Imperial House of Romanov as well, however that doesn't mean I in any way support replacing Prince Nicholas, it was just an interesting point.

But now that Georgia is an independent country again and Maria's Bragration relatives are back to their royal claims in Georgia, does not that make her and her mother back as Royals, thus with more aristocratic leverage than the rest of the rival Romanovs clans?

below is from The Bagrationi (Bagration) Dynasty

STYLES & TITLES:
The Sovereign: the titles of the Georgian rulers varied significantly from reign to reign, especially after the country came under Muslim and Russian domination. Nevertherless, the last King to enjoy the traditional titles was Irakli I, as "The Most High King (Mepe-Umaglesi) (reign name), by the will of our Lord, King of Kings (Mepe-Mepeta) of the Abkhazis, Kartvelians, Ranians, Kakhetians and the Armenians, Shirvanshah and Shahanshah and Master of all the East and West", with the style of His Majesty (or His Splendour).
The wife of the Sovereign: enjoyed the exact female equivalent of all the titles and styles of her husband. Thus, Irkali I's consort was entitled "The Most High Queen (Dedopali-Umaglesi) (reign name), by the will of our Lord, Queen of Kings (Dedopali-Mepeta) of the Abkhazis, Kartvelians, Ranians, Kakhetians and the Armenians, etc.", with the style of Her Majesty (or Her Splendour).
The mother of the Sovereign: The Most High Queen Mother (Codshibrola-Umaglesi), with the style of Her Majesty (or Her Splendour).
The sons, grandsons, and male descendants in the male line, including natural issue: The Most Brilliant (Uganatlibulisi) (given name)-batonishvili, i.e. Prince, with the style of His Highness (or His Splendour).
The daughters, granddaughters, and female descendants in the male line, including natural issue: The Most Brilliant (Uganatlibulisi) (given name)-batonishvili, i.e. Princess, with the style of Her Highness (or Her Splendour).
Copyright ©Christopher Buyers Copyright ©Christopher Buyers
After Russia extended her protection over the kingdom of Georgia, the Tsar recognised the following styles and titles as of 24th September 1783 o.s.*:
The sovereign: The Hereditary Sovereign and Prince, The Most Serene King (Tsar) (reign name), by the will of our Lord, King (Tsar) of Kartli, King of Kakheti, Hereditary Prince of Samtzkhé-Saatabago, Ruling Prince of Kazakh, Borchalo, Shamshadilo, Kak, Shaki, and Shirvan, Prince and Lord of Ganja and Erivan, with the style of His Majesty.
The wife of the sovereign: The Most Serene Queen (Tsaritsa) (personal name), by the will of our Lord, Queen (Tsaritsa) of Kartli, etc.", with the style of Her Majesty.
The sons of the Sovereign: Prince (Tsarevitch) (given name) (father's name) Grouzinskii, i.e. Prince of Georgia, with the style of His Highness.
The daughters of the Sovereign: Princess (Tsarevna) (given name) (father's name) Grouzinskaya, i.e. Princess of Georgia, with the style of Her Highness.
All legitimate male descendants of King Irakli II and King Giorgi XII, in the male line: Prince (Kniaz) (given name) (father's name) Grouzinskii, i.e. Prince of Georgia, with the style of His Serene Highness.
All legitimate female descendants of King Irakli II and King Giorgi XII, in the male line: Princess (Kniaza) (given name) (father's name) Grouzinskaya, i.e. Princess of Georgia, with the style of Her Serene Highness.
More remote princes of the blood or descendants in the natural line, also received the title of Kniaz or Kniaza (given name) (father's name) Bagration, frequently with a territorial or other designation. Bagration-Mukhranskii (Bagration of Mukhrani), Bagration-Davidov (Bagration-Davitishvili), etc.
Note: these Russian designations were largely ignored in Georgia by the Georgians themselves, who continued to use the ancient styles and titles of their race.

[lord_rankin]

Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna is the true thread through which the Romanov crown has decended, however according to the Pauline Laws her son would be the actual Tsar if the dynasty was ever returned to Russia. The law states that the throne would be inherited through the female line if no male was produced. Besides she does not strike me as someone who would instill loyalty and affection from people. She should stop using herself as the conduit to rally support for her cause and focus on her son.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Toledo

But now that Georgia is an independent country again and Maria's Bragration relatives are back to their royal claims in Georgia, does not that make her and her mother back as Royals, thus with more aristocratic leverage than the rest of the rival Romanovs clans?

The Treaty of Georgievsk recognized the sovereign status of the rulers of Georgia (the Bagration-Mukhransky branch), and was never revoked officially. Therefore when Leonida married Vladimir she did so as an equal, herself being a royal princess.

[branchg]

The Pauline Law requires dynasts marry a member of a reigning and sovereign house in order to retain their succession rights. The Bagrations were inscribed in the Fifth Book of Nobility and were subjects of the Tsar, just as the other noble and princely families of Russia were.

Vladimir certainly could rule his marriage was equal as Head of the House, however, this distinction could not be denied to other members who also married noble and princely Russian individuals.

This is the main problem with Maria's claim.

[Mapple]

Originally Posted by Benjamin

The Treaty of Georgievsk recognized the sovereign status of the rulers of Georgia (the Bagration-Mukhransky branch), and was never revoked officially. Therefore when Leonida married Vladimir she did so as an equal, herself being a royal princess.

Actually the Treaty of Georgievsk was superseded by the 1800 manifesto of Paul I annexing Kartli-Kakheti.

Though the treaty was to have permanent validity, Emperor Paul I's manifesto of Dec. 18, 1800, unilaterally declared the annexation of Kartalinia-Kakhetia to Russia, and on Sept. 12, 1801, his successor, Alexander I, formally reaffirmed this determination. (From Encyclopaedia Britannica)

[Russian]

In Russia there is a monarchic organization which denies rights of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna to the Russian Imperial throne. This organization refers to as the All-Russia Monarchic Center. Monarchists from this organization consider that Grand duke Kirill Vladimirovich has betraid Emperor Nikolas II. If in France notorious Philippe Egalite which was Duke Orlean earlier, and now has come over to the party of revolution and even has voted for death of Louis XVI,that now in Russia Kirill Vladimirovich has come over to the party of revolution and was in the State Duma (it is Russian parliament) with a red bow in a buttonhole. In State Duma Kirill Vladimirovich has told to deputies, that in Russia there come new changes and the Imperial Surname puts the powers. Therefore this Grand duke is considered the traitor and consequently, he and him descendants are for ever deprived the rights to Russian Imperial Throne. Still also monarchists from the All-Russia Monarchic Center deny imperial origin Leonida, including Georgian Bagrations usual noblemen of Russian empire. Marriage of Vladimir Kirillovich and Leonida is considered morganatic , and therefore Maria Vladimirovna and its son George cannot be successors of the Russian Imperial Family and borrow the Russian Imperial Throne. I wish to add that monarchists of the All-Russia Monarchic Center consider as the present successors German Oldenburg dukes to whom has ostensibly passed the right to the Russian throne after tragedy of Nikolas and morganatic marriages of descendants of Imperial family

[branchg]

The rightful heirs would be the descendants of Grand Duchess Kira and Prince Louis-Ferdinand of Prussia after the death of Grand Duke Vladimir. HH Duke Paul Vladimir of Oldenburg, their grandson, is arguably the qualified pretender under the Pauline Law.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Russian

In Russia there is a monarchic organization which denies rights of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna to the Russian Imperial throne. This organization refers to as the All-Russia Monarchic Center. Monarchists from this organization consider that Grand duke Kirill Vladimirovich has betraid Emperor Nikolas II. If in France notorious Philippe Egalite which was Duke Orlean earlier, and now has come over to the party of revolution and even has voted for death of Louis XVI,that now in Russia Kirill Vladimirovich has come over to the party of revolution and was in the State Duma (it is Russian parliament) with a red bow in a buttonhole. In State Duma Kirill Vladimirovich has told to deputies, that in Russia there come new changes and the Imperial Surname puts the powers. Therefore this Grand duke is considered the traitor and consequently, he and him descendants are for ever deprived the rights to Russian Imperial Throne. Still also monarchists from the All-Russia Monarchic Center deny imperial origin Leonida, including Georgian Bagrations usual noblemen of Russian empire. Marriage of Vladimir Kirillovich and Leonida is considered morganatic , and therefore Maria Vladimirovna and its son George cannot be successors of the Russian Imperial Family and borrow the Russian Imperial Throne. I wish to add that monarchists of the All-Russia Monarchic Center consider as the present successors German Oldenburg dukes to whom has ostensibly passed the right to the Russian throne after tragedy of Nikolas and morganatic marriages of descendants of Imperial family

That's interesting. Is there any type of move between the different groups to set their differences aside into one common goal to unify the pro monarchists? The situation decribed here brings to mind the similar one years ago in Brazil. During the attempt to bring the return of the monarchy back in an election it seems there was a dispute between two branches of the Braganza family on who should be the official claimant.

[Raskolnikov]

I read that obese cousin statment and was very angry. Low blow indeed. Maria is very pretty, slim, or chubby-----------she's a Russian woman!!!

[Raskolnikov]

The other members are junior, what say did they ever have?-----none. The Grand Duke makes the laws, they didnt like it, but he is the head of the family, and was recognized as such until he made Maria heir, proir, all memeber with the exception of Nikola's branch had asked for titles etc..... If he wasnt head of the family, then why ask for his approval? Best wishes

[Raskolnikov]

That's odd, I am Ukrainian-Russian and everyone I know loves her. I now live in Los Angeles, and everyone knows who she is. A teenage girl had the magazine with the young royals in it and brought it to church. She has been on Russian TV numerous times, and Putin and the head of the church have spoken of her, so I disagree-------------she is very well known. She is who she is, and our hereditary leader, we know her! Best wishes

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

I read that obese cousin statment and was very angry. Low blow indeed. Maria is very pretty, slim, or chubby-----------she's a Russian woman!!!

Obessity is something difficult to control and if her cousins made that crude statement about her then they should take a cold look at themselves in the mirror to see if they look like super models.

Grand Duchess Maria seems to be a very attractive mature lady and that shows not on how much she weights but on how she conducts herself in public. When I think of deposed monarchies and the effort to restore them she is the one that pops up my head when thinking of Russia. She has made a current issue the restoration of the monarchy as well as the legal case she presented to exonerate Czar Nicholas and his family of the charges that caused their tragic. Until another Romanov decides to take the spotlight, she is the one who continues the lonely fight to defend a Dynasty name that gave Russia three hundred years of history. Maybe one day her relatives will come to terms with that and unify with her cause.