Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna and other claimants to the Throne 2: Oct '06-Jun '08

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by sinulord

After reading through all seven pages on this discussion and through my own research, I would most certainly agree that GD Maria is indeed the rightful Head of the Imperial House of Romanov. No doubt about that, whatever anyone's personal "opinions" and bias maybe.

I don't really think anybody but her WANTS the throne anymore.

[Al_bina]

Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna may not be viewed as the perfect choice, but acceptable one. Something is better than nothing. The current Romanovs unfortunately lack charismatic Princes of the right bloodline, who can outshine her and contest her claims to the Russian throne.

[sinulord]

Originally Posted by Russophile

I don't really think anybody but her WANTS the throne anymore.

I would like to clarify that I did not mention anything about any Russian throne. There might just not be any throne at all since the Russian people do not seem keen on returning to having a monarchy. All I stated was her Headship of the Imperial House.

[branchg]

None of the current descendants have made anything close to an equal marriage under the Pauline Law, except for Maria Vladimirovna. Given that she is Vladimir's only child and represents the senior line of the Romanovs, there is no question she is the rightful Head of the Imperial House.

Whether she would actually become Tsarina if the monarchy was restored is another matter altogether. The Russian Government could choose anyone to succeed the throne.

[Al_bina]

Originally Posted by branchg

Whether she would actually become Tsarina if the monarchy was restored is another matter altogether. The Russian Government could choose anyone to succeed the throne.

It is a very insightful observation. The rules would be re-interpreted to accommodate the circumstances.

[sinulord]

The Russian Government could choose anyone to succeed the throne.[/quote]

What about the Russian Orthodox Church? Wouldn't they have a say on the matter as well? The other thing of course is they might let the Russian people decide through a referendum.

[Al_bina]

The Russian Orthodox Church would prefer to find the golden mean in such situation without straining relationships with the government.

[qui mal y pense]

How do you figure she has a better claim? Her father's marriage was morganatic, which makes him just as disqualified as the others. None of the other Romanovs recognize her claim.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by qui mal y pense

How do you figure she has a better claim? Her father's marriage was morganatic, which makes him just as disqualified as the others. None of the other Romanovs recognize her claim.

Grand Duke Vladimir had already succeeded his father as Head of the Imperial House when he married Princess Leonida. Furthermore, prior to his marriage, he had ruled the Bagrations were a royal and sovereign house in response to a question from Infante Ferdinand as to the status of the family.

Given those points, it's hard to argue Vladimir married morganatically and Maria was therefore disqualified to succeed. The Head of the House is the final word on these matters and that was the end of it.

The other Romanovs are unquestionably descendants of morganatic marriages, some of whom did not seek permission to marry from Grand Duke Cyril or Grand Duke Vladimir.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by sinulord

The Russian Government could choose anyone to succeed the throne.

What about the Russian Orthodox Church? Wouldn't they have a say on the matter as well? The other thing of course is they might let the Russian people decide through a referendum.

Maria is unquestionably recognized by the Church as the de-jure Tsarina of All Russias. The Russian people are unlikely to approve a restoration of the monarchy through a referendum since there is little support for it.

[Al_bina]

The Russian Orthodox Church does recognize Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna as the de-jure Tsarina of All Russias because she is highly unlikely to become the royal figurehead of the Russian Federation. If a strong Russian leader wished to restore monarchy and introduced some other Prince of the blood, the Russian Church would attune their views to fit circumstances. That is why Maria Vladimirovna showed some support for extending the tenure of President Putin (see post #83 in the thread “Does Russia really need Monarchy?”).

[BorisRom]

INTERFAX:

Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna pledges to seek Imperial Family rehabilitation

Moscow, January 2, Interfax - Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, the head of the Russian Imperial Family, has pledged to continue seeking the rehabilitation of the imperial family in her home country, and said she will not hurry to turn to international courts.
"I will continue seeking the rehabilitation of my relatives until justice triumphs. But I will only do so in my homeland. I could ask international courts to provide a legal assessment of the procedural violations of my rights, regrettably committed by the Russian judiciary, and I will decide in due time whether or not I will. But the imperial family and my other relatives must be rehabilitated precisely in Russia," Maria Vladimirovna said in an interview with Interfax.
She said "prominent European and American lawyers" had informed her that, "this case could have good prospects if referred to international courts." "I told all of them it would be just senseless to use external pressure in handling this deeply Russian issue," she said
"The denial of rehabilitation to the imperial martyrs is, of course, a political, not law-based decision. There is no doubt that the imperial family and all other executed members of the Imperial House must be rehabilitated in accordance with the law," Maria Vladimirovna also said.
"Certain political forces, nostalgic about the totalitarian past and still nursing the dream of revenge, could stand behind the denial of rehabilitation," she went on to say.
"We must try to save all the good created in the Soviet period. But crimes must be officially condemned, or we'll have no guarantees that terror will not be repeated," Maria Vladimirovna said.
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=4127
*******************************

Happy New Year, Al Bina and all people here!
Boris

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by branchg

The other Romanovs are unquestionably descendants of morganatic marriages, some of whom did not seek permission to marry from Grand Duke Cyril or Grand Duke Vladimir.

It was the faction. All the Michalioviches (sic) weren't thrilled when Cyril declared himself Tsar, or head of household after the revolution. I don't think the Nicoliviches (sic) were happy about it either.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Russophile

It was the faction. All the Michalioviches (sic) weren't thrilled when Cyril declared himself Tsar, or head of household after the revolution. I don't think the Nicoliviches (sic) were happy about it either.

True, but regardless, Cyril was the rightful successor after the deaths of Nicholas II, The Tsarevitch and Grand Duke Michael under the Pauline Law.

After his death, the headship passed to Vladimir, who survived his male cousins who were dynasts. The question then becomes whether Maria took precedence as a female compared to male descendants of other dynasts who were not in the senior lines.

The consensus is she does and this is recognized by the Russian Orthodox Church, the Government and most royal houses.

[Russophile]

Yes, MOST Royal houses such as in Massie's book "The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" he said HM recognized Nicholas as the head of the family and not Maria.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Russophile

Yes, MOST Royal houses such as in Massie's book "The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" he said HM recognized Nicholas as the head of the family and not Maria.

He said (and this was second-hand, not something he witnessed personally) that she stood when she saw Nicholas coming at a function in London in which she was present. That doesn't mean The Queen recognizes him as the Head of the Imperial House, which is a sensitive diplomatic issue to Russia which she could never do without the advice of The Prime Minister.

Other sources have stated The Queen privately accepts Maria as the rightful heir. After all, Maria is Queen Victoria's great-great granddaughter through Victoria Melita, a princess of Great Britain and Ireland and daughter of Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh and Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrova of Russia.

[Russophile]

Queen Victoria (Granny) was related to EVERYBODY. She spread her seed far and wide. . . .

[sinulord]

Originally Posted by Russophile

Yes, MOST Royal houses such as in Massie's book "The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" he said HM recognized Nicholas as the head of the family and not Maria.

Why does everyone keep asserting this ones name, when, apart from being a morganatic scion of the Romanovs, he is not even the first in line among the morganatic princes. If anyone among them must have the strongest claim, then its none other than Prince Dmitri Romanoff-Ilyinsky.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by sinulord

Why does everyone keep asserting this ones name, when, apart from being a morganatic scion of the Romanovs, he is not even the first in line among the morganatic princes. If anyone among them must have the strongest claim, then its none other than Prince Dmitri Romanoff-Ilyinsky.

Nicholas has no claim to the throne and is not a dynast under any interpretation of the Pauline Law. While it's true Dimitri Ilyinsky is the senior line male morganaut as the son of Paul Ilyinsky, he is also an American citizen and carries no titles of nobility.

There are no viable contenders other than Maria and George.

[Russophile]

Dmitry Romanov-Ilyinsky GOT his title from the Vladimiriches. Dmitry Pavlovich married Audrey Emery, an American Heiress. NO ROYAL BLOOD whatsoever in her veins. Maria has more blue blood than Dmitry Ilyinsky would ever possess.