Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna and other claimants to the Throne 2: Oct '06-Jun '08

[Katya]

I don't agree with Maria's claim one bit, but after arguing against her for many years and getting nowhere, I think we should just stop beating the dead dog.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Salomé

I don't think that the actual Russian governoment which recognizes her as a pretendent for the Russian throne is NOT an indice to the person who's the most rightful,as everybody knows,the governoment encourages only those who would serve him,and not those who would change the face of power.

The Russian Government is sovereign and if they recognize her as heir, there is really no argument at this point on her position as successor to the imperial throne.

[Charlottesville]

Originally Posted by branchg

The Russian Government is sovereign and if they recognize her as heir, there is really no argument at this point on her position as successor to the imperial throne.

In your opinion. Just because a claim is recognized as valid by the Russian government does not mean it is rightful.

[lord_rankin]

Charlottesville, If you so vehemently deny Maria's claim then whom in your opinon should accede to the throne or be the pretender?

[Charlottesville]

Originally Posted by lord_rankin

Charlottesville, If you so vehemently deny Maria's claim then whom in your opinon should accede to the throne or be the pretender?

I don't 'vehemently' deny her claim. I don't really care. I'm just stating the facts of the rules of succession. And a desendant of Cyril who betrayed Nicholas and supported the Revolution with a red badge should never be heir to the nonexistant throne.

[BeatrixFan]

Surely by that logic, there is a whole generation of Germans who shouldn't be allowed to go out at all because they fought in the German Army between 1939-1945?

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Charlottesville

... a desendant of Cyril who betrayed Nicholas and supported the Revolution with a red badge should never be heir to the nonexistant throne.

Once again emotion and prejudice are being substituted for any semblance of reality, and somehow a revolutionary "red badge of betrayal" has been pinned to the ample breast of Maria Vladimirovna (born 1953).

If one is in any doubt as to Maria's pre-eminence or status among the Romanov dynasts, as recognised by at least the Russsian and Danish governments (and therefore Queen Margrethe), there is no need to look further than the pics of the Reburial service from last month. Maria is in the front row alongside the Danish and British royal representatives. By any rational viewpoint, red badges notwithstanding, this is the position of honour.

[Charlottesville]

Great. But what makes her any more valid than say, Nicholas Romanov?

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

Surely by that logic, there is a whole generation of Germans who shouldn't be allowed to go out at all because they fought in the German Army between 1939-1945?

I'm not a fan of the Nazis, so I agree with that.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Charlottesville

Great. But what makes her any more valid than say, Nicholas Romanov?

Based on the most recent 'joint' official public appearance, Nicholas Romanov was at the back, while Maria Vladimirovna was in the front row.
Simplistic maybe, but pecking order is the visible sign of hierarchy and status within Royal circles. I don't think "validity" can be made any clearer than that, whatever one's prejudices.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Charlottesville

Great. But what makes her any more valid than say, Nicholas Romanov?

I'm not a fan of the Nazis, so I agree with that.

If you read the latest British research on the Germans under the reign of the Nazis you'll find that most of them stopped being "fans" around 1935. But during the two years from 1933 to 1935 the Nazis had in fact changed the whole structure of the army and police into a close circuit of control and suppression of the Germans, so there was no chance anymore to react on these changed feelings. Most people were afraid of what would happen to them if they acted against the Nazis and those few who did suffered for it.

Today, having grown up in a democracy, we would probably act on our opinions against the state, even if we were afraid (at least I hope so) but then people had grown up in authoritarian times and had no or not much access to independent media reports - it was difficult for them to figure out what really happened but they were of course informed of what happened to those who didn't obey.

One should always be aware that people are the same wherever they are and try to figure out what makes them react differently to others in different circumstances. IMHO.

[BeatrixFan]

Maybe I should explain my comment which seems to have been misunderstood. Charlottesville said that Maria should never be allowed to inherit because her ancestors were communist sympathisers. Well, by that logic, many young Germans would have to become hermits because of things their ancestors were associated with under the Nazi regime. We can't be held to account for the things our ancestors did. Maria's claim may have it's loopholes BUT she does actually work for Russia.

Nicholas Romanov spends his time dining out on the title he's given himself, writing books and pretending that he represents the Imperial Family. Maria on the other hand, visits Russia regularly, does alot for Russian charities, for the Russian Orthodox Church and tries to help whenever she can and because she does that, the Russian Government takes her more seriously than Nicholas Romanov.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

Maybe I should explain my comment which seems to have been misunderstood. Charlottesville said that Maria should never be allowed to inherit because her ancestors were communist sympathisers. Well, by that logic, many young Germans would have to become hermits because of things their ancestors were associated with under the Nazi regime. We can't be held to account for the things our ancestors did. Maria's claim may have it's loopholes BUT she does actually work for Russia.

THat's how I understood your message, but as Charlottesville came up with the idea that she thought your satirical answer was serious and she supported the idea, I thought it was time for a little history lesson...

As for Maria's claim: AFAIK the only potential problem are the Pauline laws and the fact that Russia annexed Georgia and did not stay true to their former contract with Georgia on stripping the Georgian Royal family of their rank and force them into the ranks of Russian nobility.

Well, IMHO the Head of the family decides what is right and what is wrong and in this case the current Head of the Romanows decided that Maria's mother was Royal. It was (at least in my reading) some sort of amendment to the Pauline laws and this makes her perfectly legitimate with the direct claim. Which obviously has been openly acknowledged by the Danish Royal House and the Russian government. Is there more to say?

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

Nicholas Romanov spends his time dining out on the title he's given himself, writing books and pretending that he represents the Imperial Family. Maria on the other hand, visits Russia regularly, does alot for Russian charities, for the Russian Orthodox Church and tries to help whenever she can and because she does that, the Russian Government takes her more seriously than Nicholas Romanov.

Exactly. Action speaks louder than words...

[fanletizia]

Moscow court: refusal to rehabilitate Russian tsar illegal

http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/0/28.html?id_issue=11621639

[Toledo]

This one has the same title but the text was worded differently and it also contains a nice picture of Nicholas II and family:
Court rules prosecutors' refusal to exonerate last czar illegal
...Grand Duchess Maria Romanov, who heads the Russian Imperial House in exile, claims the killing was a state-sponsored execution rather than murder, and wants a court of justice to clear the monarch of all political charges allegedly leveled against him by the Bolsheviks...

And from today's news:
Russian court ruling paves way for rehabilitation of murdered Tsar
By Andrew Osborn in Moscow Published: 16 November 2006

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

As for Maria's claim: AFAIK the only potential problem are the Pauline laws and the fact that Russia annexed Georgia and did not stay true to their former contract with Georgia on stripping the Georgian Royal family of their rank and force them into the ranks of Russian nobility.

Well, IMHO the Head of the family decides what is right and what is wrong and in this case the current Head of the Romanows decided that Maria's mother was Royal. It was (at least in my reading) some sort of amendment to the Pauline laws and this makes her perfectly legitimate with the direct claim. Which obviously has been openly acknowledged by the Danish Royal House and the Russian government. Is there more to say?

And the fact remains that her father, Grand Duke Vladimir, who everyone agrees was the rightful Head of the Imperial House and de-jure Tsar, ruled the Bagrations were entitled to be Royal Highnesses and Prince/Princess of Georgia prior to his marriage to Leonida.

Infante Ferdinand had asked for Vladimir's opinion as to the status of the family prior to a Bagration marrying into the Spanish Royal House. Vladimir consulted his uncle and legal experts and ruled the Georgian question was settled by treaty and ignored by his ancestors.

[Benjamin]

Here is a little update of what is happening with Maria's son (from an interview he gave last month):

Until recently Georgiy worked as an assistant to the Vice President of the European Commission, Sra. Loyola de Palacio, in Brussels and Luxembourg.
Now he is "going to study work of private enterprise."
He has visited Russia frequently in the past two years, namely St. Petersburg and Moscow. Some of these times were when he was working for the Commision. Two months ago, he visited to congratulate Patriarch Alexei II on his 45th anniversary in that position. He also met the first vice-presidents of the Duma while there.
Georgiy loves Mozart, and also listens to AC DC and Metallica.
He is still single, he says. He discusses the marriage requirements, but the translation I received doesn't make his answer very clear. However, he states that should the Pauline Laws that effect marriage equality be cancelled then the number of potential partners would extend. He says that his "future wife should love Russia, understand me and always be near to me in my service to the Native land."

Here is a link to the interview: http://www.imperialhouse.ru/rus/dyna.../2006/569.html
Attached is the rough English translation

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by branchg

And the fact remains that her father, Grand Duke Vladimir, who everyone agrees was the rightful Head of the Imperial House and de-jure Tsar, ruled the Bagrations were entitled to be Royal Highnesses and Prince/Princess of Georgia prior to his marriage to Leonida.

Infante Ferdinand had asked for Vladimir's opinion as to the status of the family prior to a Bagration marrying into the Spanish Royal House. Vladimir consulted his uncle and legal experts and ruled the Georgian question was settled by treaty and ignored by his ancestors.

Now that should settle the question once and for all descendents of the Romanov-family. Didn't the French king Louis XV. marry the daughter of the exiled king of Poland Stanislaw Leszczynski, even though Poland was annexed partly by Russia and partly by Saxony at that time? Okay, some people considered the marriage a mesalliance (as some consider the Romanov-marriage to the Bagration-princess of Georgia to be) but still the firstborn son from that marriage became the Dauphin and queen Maria Leszczynska's grandson became king as Louis XVI. Thus I guess the marriage was valid in the dynastical sense.

[Benjamin]

Picture of GDss Leonida Georgievna, who is now 92 (10/6/06): http://www.imperialhouse.ru/uploads/...1006/obr_2.jpg
Picture Gallery of GDss Maria Vladimirovna's visit to Russia for the reburial of Maria Feodorovna (9/25-9/29/06): http://www.imperialhouse.ru/rus/dyna.../20060930.html
Picture Gallery of GD Georgiy Mikhailovich's visit to Russia (9/2-9/4/06): http://www.imperialhouse.ru/rus/dyna.../20060904.html

[Benjamin]

Link to a review of GD Leonida's memoirs: http://www.network54.com/Forum/12575...+by+GD+Leonida

[Benjamin]

Last Russian tsar's descendant appeals in exoneration case
12/8/06
An appeal has been filed with the Moscow City Court against a district court's refusal to exonerate Russia's last emperor Nicholas II and his family, the plaintiff's lawyer said Tuesday...
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20061205/56502555.html