Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna and other claimants to the Throne 2: Oct '06-Jun '08 - Page 2

Katya · #21 10-07-2006, 09:33 AM

Ruby Princess, thanks for bringing up the issue of Kyril's betrayal of the monarchy. Had he not already been banned from the succession by the Pauline laws, this would surely remove him as a candidate, at least in my eyes. Kyril Vladimirovich's mother, Maria Pavlovna, was not a member of the Orthodox church at the time of his birth, thus he and his siblings would not have been able to inherit the throne. Maria Pavlovna (the elder) only became Orthodox when she thought there might be a chance for one of her sons to become Tsar (after the death of Grand Duke Georgi Nikolaievich and before the birth of Aleksei).

branchg · #22 10-07-2006, 10:01 AM

The Emperor approved the marriage of Victoria to Grand Duke Cyril and declared their daughter a princess of the imperial blood with the rank of Highness. He acted harshly at first because The Empress was furious at Victoria for divorcing her brother, Grand Duke Ernst of Hesse.

Regardless of politics, Cyril was the rightful Head of the House under the Pauline Law after the death of Grand Duke Michael. His son, Vladimir, was the rightful Head of the House after the death of his father.

Maria's position is controversial because her mother, Princess Leonida Bagration, was not royal under the Pauline Law as a noble subject of The Tsar in Imperial Russia. There is no question this marriage would not have been considered equal under Imperial rule, however, Grand Duke Vladimir was the dejure Emperor and ruled it was.

She certainly has the strongest claim to the throne, despite the question of her mother's status, and is arguably the rightful Head of the House.

Katya · #23 10-07-2006, 11:45 AM

I am not talking about Kyril's marriage to Victoria Melita, I am talking about his father's marriage to Maria Pavlovna. She was not Orthodox at the time of their marriage, thus making any offspring of hers (including Kyril) ineligible to inherit the throne. Thus from the time of his birth, no matter what he or anyone else said, was legally unable to inherit the throne of Russia.

Benjamin · #24 10-07-2006, 12:42 PM

Vladimir and Maria's children were Grand Dukes and a Grand Duchess with full succession rights. There isn't any information to the contrary.

Article 185 of Russia's Fundamental Laws required that only the heir apparent or heir presumptive of the Emperor needed to marry an Orthodox bride. Therefore Maria Pavlovna's Lutheranism wasn't an issue because when she married Vladimir he wasn't either of those things.

lord_rankin · #25 10-07-2006, 09:17 PM

Thank you Benjamin I was gonna post that as well. People try to make that an issue (Cyril's mother) all the time in this forum and it just doesn't hold up.

RubyPrincess168 · #26 10-08-2006, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin

Article 185 of Russia's Fundamental Laws required that only the heir apparent or heir presumptive of the Emperor needed to marry an Orthodox bride. Therefore Maria Pavlovna's Lutheranism wasn't an issue because when she married Vladimir he wasn't either of those things.

But wouldn't it then be an issue when he did become heir apparent?

Benjamin · #27 10-08-2006, 09:25 AM

No, because the law only refers to marrying an Orthodox bride, not having an Orthodox wife. It's sort of a loophole, I suppose.

branchg · #28 10-08-2006, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katya

I am not talking about Kyril's marriage to Victoria Melita, I am talking about his father's marriage to Maria Pavlovna. She was not Orthodox at the time of their marriage, thus making any offspring of hers (including Kyril) ineligible to inherit the throne. Thus from the time of his birth, no matter what he or anyone else said, was legally unable to inherit the throne of Russia.

Maria Pavlovna converted to Orthodoxy in 1908 and was recognized as "Orthodox Grand Duchess" officially by The Emperor. Given that point, there was nothing under the Pauline Law disbarring Cyril from succeeding to the throne.

branchg · #29 10-08-2006, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin

No, because the law only refers to marrying an Orthodox bride, not having an Orthodox wife. It's sort of a loophole, I suppose.

The Tsarevitch and Grand Duke Michael both stood before Cyril in line to the throne in 1908 when Maria Pavlovna converted. Given that Grand Duke Michael had married morganatically, it stood to reason Cyril was next in the event the Tsarevitch didn't survive.

Toledo · #30 10-08-2006, 02:27 PM

although this links relates to the other thread about the Reburial, the article has a focus on Grand Duchess Maria Vladivirovna and her Romanov Family leadership status discussed here:

Russia buries a tsaritsa with love and grandeur
By Tony Halpin in St Petersburg

quote:

...The split within the Romanov dynasty over the Tsar’s true heir was evident, however. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna was placed in the centre section of the cathedral next to Prince Michael, former King Constantine of Greece and Denmark’s Crown Prince Frederik and Crown Princess Mary, while Prince Nicholas Romanov and the majority of family members, who dispute her claim to be the titular Empress of Russia, stood at the side...

lord_rankin · #31 10-09-2006, 09:44 AM

Is it true that the Almanac de Gotha gives "Prince" Nicholas headship of the Imperial House? I think I read that on Wikipedia and was a little shocked

Toledo · #32 10-09-2006, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_rankin

Is it true that the Almanac de Gotha gives "Prince" Nicholas headship of the Imperial House? I think I read that on Wikipedia and was a little shocked

I tried to check that out but the link to the official Gotha site was dead or the site is down. But I think you are right on the people who take care of the Almanac Gotha pressing his claims. Maybe the prince is 'well connected' ?

lord_rankin · #33 10-09-2006, 04:17 PM

Personally I think the man should be "disconnected" and put in some institutution for overly imaginative aristocracy.

charlottestreasures · #34 10-09-2006, 05:09 PM

Since the reburial I was interested in reading more about the Romanovs. I always stayed away from it due to the violent end of the story!

I just read "Nicholas and Alexandra" by Robert K. Massie and am now reading an abridged copy of his latest book "The Romanovs The Final Chapter". I also took out of the library Grand Duchess Olga's (who died in Toronto) book and "Michael & Natasha The Life and Love of the Last Tsar of Russia.

I also did quite alot of research on the "net".

The issue of rightful claim to the throne is indeed a complicated one. The "house laws" established by Paul I were and are very strict, The consorts had to be of equal birth (born to a sovereign house of Europe) . I would think it would be very hard to find anyone that has come down to the present time following these rules. Today most of the marriages in the Royal Houses across Europe would not be accepted.

And finally the one main thing that bothers me about Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna is that she decends from Czar Nicholas' cousin that was the first of the Romanov family to betray him and even mentioned that Alexandra should be eliminated!! I have nothing against the current members of that family, but

When Czar Nicholas was forced to abdicate he did not choose his Uncle Cyril, which had been the most prominent member after him and his son. He chose his brother Michael, which he had exiled not approving of his marriage, but he had changed his mind on that and had previously invited him back and gave his wife and their son a title. So we could imagine that the line might have gone from them, or Nicholas might not have wanted to go any further than his brothers and sisters and might have chosen a sister after Michael. All speculation of course and one will never know.

Happy Thanksgiving !!!!!

branchg · #35 10-09-2006, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_rankin

Is it true that the Almanac de Gotha gives "Prince" Nicholas headship of the Imperial House? I think I read that on Wikipedia and was a little shocked

They used to, although I never understood why other than he served on the Board with Juan Carlos and Michael of Romania. Nicholas is not even the senior male agnate in the family (assuming for a moment they are all equal in status, which they are not) since he is a descendant of the younger son of Nicholas I and there are surviving descendants who take seniority over him.

Dimitri Ilinsky, Paul Ilinsky's son, would be the heir as a the senior living descendant of Alexander II. Unlike Prince Roman, Nicholas' father, Paul's father, Grand Duke Dimitri, properly sought approval and a title from Grand Duke Cyril when he married Audrey Emery morganatically. Cyril created her HSH Princess Romanovsky-Ilinsky and their children took their style from this title.

Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna is arguably the rightful heir and Head of the House. Although her mother, Princess Leonida Bagration, was not of royal birth as a noble subject of the Tsar in Imperial Russia, Vladimir had previously ruled the family was entitled to be Royal Highnesses and Prince/Princess of Georgia. It was controversial for sure, but well within his rights as dejure Emperor of All Russias.

branchg · #36 10-09-2006, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlottestreasures

The issue of rightful claim to the throne is indeed a complicated one. The "house laws" established by Paul I were and are very strict, The consorts had to be of equal birth (born to a sovereign house of Europe) . I would think it would be very hard to find anyone that has come down to the present time following these rules. Today most of the marriages in the Royal Houses across Europe would not be accepted.

In reality, the rights passed after Vladimir's death under the strictest interpretation of the Pauline Laws through his sister, Grand Duchess Kira, who married Prince Louis-Ferdinand of Prussia. Her grandson, HH Duke Paul Vladimir of Oldenburg, is arguably the rightful heir.

Royal Fan · #37 10-09-2006, 11:18 PM

If The Romanovs are Restored , How many years would it take 5, 10 , 15 ,50.

branchg · #38 10-10-2006, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royal Fan

If The Romanovs are Restored , How many years would it take 5, 10 , 15 ,50.

It is highly unlikely they would ever be restored. The Russian people are not particularly interested in a monarchy.

lord_rankin · #39 10-10-2006, 08:22 AM

My sense would be sooner rather than later, if it could happen it would have a
much better chance of success while Putin is still President. After all he has more power now than the Tsar did after 1905. If they wait for his successor I think it could be a very long time.

branchg · #40 10-10-2006, 07:30 PM

Putin has no interest in restoring the imperial throne unless they could totally control it and use it for their own ends. The last thing the Government wants is a more powerful Orthodox Church allied with a Tsar ruling as a symbol of state.

It's not going to happen.