Engagement of Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia & Nob. Rebecca Bettarini

[London Eye]

Originally Posted by Somebody

I think you are right; so, the Spanish publication incorrectly calls her a doctor...

As this article in the NY Times explains, anyone in Italy with a three-year bachelors degree is entitled to call themselves Dottore.

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/19/w...a-dottore.html

It follows, therefore, that Hola is correctly following Italian cultural practice in so calling her thus.

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by Biri

Probably Roman Catholicism.

That's what I was thinking too

I did find this earlier on the ceremony
Royal Musings: Rebecca Bettarini received into Russian Orthodox church

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by nithsdale

Viktoria will not bear the title of Grand Duchess and style of HIH but she will bear the title of Princess (Fuerstin in German) and style HSH.

But I think that their children will bear titles of Grand Dukes/Duchesses and styles of HIH

I read somewhere that Gr Dss Maria needs an approval of Russian Church for it.

Usually a Fürst is a reigning Prince and a Fürstin his wife.

But what in the English speaking world is translated as Grand-Duke and Grand-Duchess is in German Großherzog and Großherzogin. (Used for Luxembourg).

In German the Russian title is translated as Großfürst and Großfürstin. The Russian title in Dutch translation: Grootvorst and Grootvorstin. It is more correct because the Latin Magnum Princeps translates in English as Grand-Prince and not as that lousy Grand-Duke.

Seen from the German translation the word Fürstin seems logical if used in combination with her husband:

Seine Kaiserliche Hoheit der Großfürst Georgi und Ihre Hoheit die Fürstin Victoria von Rußland.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Usually a Fürst is a reigning Prince and a Fürstin his wife.

Not always. There are the Ducal Families of Hohenberg and Urach where the head of the Famuily is a Duke all other Family members are Fürst/Fürstin.

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Usually a Fürst is a reigning Prince and a Fürstin his wife.

But what in the English speaking world is translated as Grand-Duke and Grand-Duchess is in German Großherzog and Großherzogin. (Used for Luxembourg).

In German the Russian title is translated as Großfürst and Großfürstin. The Russian title in Dutch translation: Grootvorst and Grootvorstin. It is more correct because the Latin Magnum Princeps translates in English as Grand-Prince and not as that lousy Grand-Duke.

Seen from the German translation the word Fürstin seems logical if used in combination with her husband:

Seine Kaiserliche Hoheit der Großfürst Georgi und Ihre Hoheit die Fürstin Victoria von Rußland.

More correctly "Seine Kaiserliche Hoheit der Großfürst Georgi von Rußland und Ihre Durchlaucht die Fürstin Victoria Romanoff" since Victoria, as per her future mother-in-law's decision, will be a Serene Highness and carry the title of Princess Romanoff.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Not always. There are the Ducal Families of Hohenberg and Urach where the head of the Famuily is a Duke all other Family members are Fürst/Fürstin.

These are the exemptions which confirm the general rule .

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by JR76

More correctly "Seine Kaiserliche Hoheit der Großfürst Georgi von Rußland und Ihre Durchlaucht die Fürstin Victoria Romanoff" since Victoria, as per her future mother-in-law's decision, will be a Serene Highness and carry the title of Princess Romanoff.

Ihre Durchlaucht is eeermmm, let me say "low" for the wife of an Imperial Highness.
See the traditional ranking... I had not thought Victoria would rank below Hoheit.

Ihre Kaiserliche und Königliche Hoheit
Ihre Kaiserliche Hoheit
Ihre Königliche Hoheit
Ihre Großherzogliche Hoheit
Ihre Hoheit
Ihre Durchlaucht die Fürstin Viktoria Romanow
Ihre Erlaucht
Ihre Hochgeboren
Ihre Hochwohlgeboren




I think Grand-Prince Georgiy will elevate his wife to a Kaiserliche Hoheit (Imperial Highness) when he is the Chef of the House Romanov. Maybe it is staged as a two-step elevation to let the currect Chef save her face, as she was adamant on Ebenbürtige marriages in the Imperial House.


Wouldn't she be Ihre Königliche Hoheit die Prinzessin Georg von Preußen anyway, as wife of George (who is in reality the son of a Prince of Prussia and titles pass via legal male agnatic descendance)?

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Wouldn't she be Ihre Königliche Hoheit die Prinzessin Georg von Preußen anyway, as wife of George (who is in reality the son of a Prince of Prussia and titles pass via legal male agnatic descendance.

but then he would need the permisson of Prince Georg Friedrich for the marriage.
But i think it was agreed at the time of his parents marriage that their children would not be prussian dynasts.

[Lady Daly]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Yes, I read that part several times but it is extremely unlike that someone obtains a doctorate at the age of 22; 4 years after finishing high school. And afterwards goes on to pursue her master's degree... So, the thesis was most likely a Bachelor thesis (which might have had a slightly different name; or could even have been a combined 'Bachelor/Master'-degree; which would be a 'doctorandus' in the Netherlands; meaning that you have qualified to start a trajectory towards a doctorate).


I think you are right; so, the Spanish publication incorrectly calls her a doctor.

It happened to me once as well at the very first conference I attended; when they thought I had two doctorates (as my title was 'drs.') while I had just started to pursue my PhD.


This confirms that her first degree was indeed a Bachelor's (or probably the Italian equivalent at that time - causing the confusion).

Found some more information that might be relevant on Wikipedia. Apparently, those with a master's degree are called 'dottore' in Italy...

Excellent investigatory work, Somebody. See, you eventually answered your own question.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

I think Grand-Prince Georgiy will elevate his wife to a Kaiserliche Hoheit (Imperial Highness) when he is the Chef of the House Romanov. Maybe it is staged as a two-step elevation to let the currect Chef save her face, as she was adamant on Ebenbürtige marriages in the Imperial House.

I agree and will be happy when/if it happens. The imperial rank will then also be extended to their children, too, and the imperial family, as it were, will continue!

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Lady Daly

Excellent investigatory work, Somebody. See, you eventually answered your own question.

With help from all of you

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Stefan

but then he would need the permisson of Prince Georg Friedrich for the marriage.
But i think it was agreed at the time of his parents marriage that their children would not be prussian dynasts.

By my understanding both father Prince Franz Wilhelm as well son Prince George of Prussia are dynasts. Franz Wilhelm made an Ebenbürtige marriage to Maria Vladimirovna Romanova and Georg is their son.

We see it with more royals:

Seine Kaiserliche und Königliche Hoheit Erzherzog Lorenz von Österreich-Este
Son Altesse Royale le prince Lorenz de Belgique

Son Altesse Sérénissime la princesse Caroline de Monaco
Ihre Königliche Hoheit die Prinzessin von Hannover

Her Serene Highness Princess Victoria Romanoff
Ihre Königliche Hoheit Prinzessin Viktoria von Preußen

[Heavs]

Originally Posted by Benjamin

I agree and will be happy when/if it happens. The imperial rank will then also be extended to their children, too, and the imperial family, as it were, will continue!

But if he elevated her doesn't he basically admit that he's not the undisputed head of the house?

I agree that he may do so but he technically has the same "problem" as his mother, even if unlike her he hasn't spent many years fighting the rest of the family because of it.

Once he raises her and/or their children to "Imperial" status he has to acknowledge all the other unequal marriages as legitimate for dynasts.

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Heavs

Once he raises her and/or their children to "Imperial" status he has to acknowledge all the other unequal marriages as legitimate for dynasts.

I don't believe that he does. All other Romanovs are descended from unequal marriages that were contracted during the "reigns" of his grandfather and great-grandfather. He could claim that he can't (or rather doesn't want to) alter decisions made by his ancestors like King Carl Gustav of Sweden replied to his uncle Count Sigvard's wish to get his royal title back. Most other head of houses that have changed the rules regarding the membership of their house have done so for the current and future generations not those that came before.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Heavs

But if he elevated her doesn't he basically admit that he's not the undisputed head of the house?

I agree that he may do so but he technically has the same "problem" as his mother, even if unlike her he hasn't spent many years fighting the rest of the family because of it.

Once he raises her and/or their children to "Imperial" status he has to acknowledge all the other unequal marriages as legitimate for dynasts.

If Georg, as son of a German father, registers himself in Germany he can use the republican style Georg Prinz von Preußen and as his legally wedded wife she can be Viktoria Prinzessin von Preußen in all legal documents of an EU memberstate. Absolute legality versus titles of pretension as Princess Romanoff which is in no any Russian or Italian municipal registry.

With other words: Mrs Maria V. Romanova can issue a decret in which her daughter-in-law becomes Princess Romanoff but in essence that is the same as my parents making me Emperor of Atlantis. It is pure pretension.

(That is also why the current Duke of Parma and his siblings requested recognition and incorporation of their foreign title into the Nobility of an EU memberstate. Now they have official documents with their legally protected title and surname, no longer a ritle of pretension).

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by JR76

I don't believe that he does. All other Romanovs are descended from unequal marriages that were contracted during the "reigns" of his grandfather and great-grandfather. He could claim that he can't (or rather doesn't want to) alter decisions made by his ancestors like King Carl Gustav of Sweden replied to his uncle Count Sigvard's wish to get his royal title back. Most other head of houses that have changed the rules regarding the membership of their house have done so for the current and future generations not those that came before.

One exception is bavaria where the marriages of Pricnes Lutpold, Leopold and Adalbertwhere recognized as dynastic in 1999. but apprently this was done by a Family Council so probably not only Duke Franz but the other adult male dynasts gave ther Consent.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

By my understanding both father Prince Franz Wilhelm as well son Prince George of Prussia are dynasts. Franz Wilhelm made an Ebenbürtige marriage to Maria Vladimirovna Romanova and Georg is their son.

We see it with more royals:

Seine Kaiserliche und Königliche Hoheit Erzherzog Lorenz von Österreich-Este
Son Altesse Royale le prince Lorenz de Belgique

Son Altesse Sérénissime la princesse Caroline de Monaco
Ihre Königliche Hoheit die Prinzessin von Hannover

Her Serene Highness Princess Victoria Romanoff
Ihre Königliche Hoheit Prinzessin Viktoria von Preußen

But Georg's marriage won't be 'ebenbürtig' (which was/is important for Georg Friedrich as well), so wouldn't that prevent GF from giving permission, meaning that she nor any children they might have would be members of the house of Preussen? (I'd say they can claim the surname 'Prinz of Preussen' as that is a separate issue)

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

(That is also why the current Duke of Parma and his siblings requested recognition and incorporation of their foreign title into the Nobility of an EU memberstate. Now they have official documents with their legally protected title and surname, no longer a ritle of pretension).

Same for Carl Christian and his brother Rudolf being incorporated in the Belgian nobility in the early 80s - but with a much lower style (serene highness).

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Somebody

But Georg's marriage won't be 'ebenbürtig' (which was/is important for Georg Friedrich as well), so wouldn't that prevent GF from giving permission, meaning that she nor any children they might have would be members of the house of Preussen? (I'd say they can claim the surname 'Prinz of Preussen' as that is a separate issue)

Yes, that is true but even when Georg Friedrich denies his nephew permission to marry, there is no morganatic title.

For an example: Prinz Albrecht von Preußen divorced his wife Marianne prinses der Nederlanden, prinses van Oranje-Nassau. The Prince then married one of his former wife's hofdames: his longtime maîtresse Rosalie von Rauch. This was seen as morganatic. Rosalie was given the title Gräfin von Hohenau.

Another example: Nikolaus Wilhelm Prinz zu Nassau married Natalia Alexandrovna Pushkina. This was seen as morganatic. Natalia was given the title Gräfin von Merenberg.

When Georg Friedrich considers Rebecca as morganatic, he can not make her Gräfin von Steglitz or something because he no longer has the possibility to issue morganatic titles. For Federal law Rebecca still will be Prinzessin von Preußen by marriage.

[Somebody]

Did Virginia Rebecca legally change her name to Victoria Romanova? Or is it only a religious name that she will use in the Russian context? So, what is stated in her Italian passport?