Catherine II "The Great" (1729-1796)

[Russophile]

I remember Carrolly Erickson wrote about that in her bio. of Catherine the Great. Didn't they discuss other things as well?

[AGRBear]

I looked in the index of her book and didn't find his name.

I recall only two things about Cath. II and France. The first being: the French supported her intentions of becoming Regent; and, the second: she was deathly afraid that "the French infection", I believe that is what she called the open resistance caused by the revolutionaries, would spread as far as Russia.
AGRBear

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by AGRBear

I looked in the index of her book and didn't find his name.

Really? That's interesting. Hmmm. I might have confused books but I distinctly remember Catherine and Metternich corresponding about many things. Liberal views included.
Oh Bear! You are so very thorough. I wish my memory was more accurate so that I might cite references without confusion!

[Kotroman]

But how did Catherine I and Catherine II become legitimate monarchs of Russia? I know that Catherine I was not related to the Russian monarchs at all and that Catherine II was very distantly related to the Russian monarchs, so was it the right of conquest (enjoying support of the army) or something else?

Originally Posted by Warren

Who would have thought a lowly Princess of Anhalt-Zerbst would rise to such dizzying heights? :)

Incredible indeed. And who would have thought that a mere peasant girl such as Martha Scowronska would become a monarch?

[Al_bina]

You have made valid point. Technically speaking, Catherine II was an usurper. Upon serving as a regent, Catherine II should have relinquished the Russian Imperial throne to Paul I, wheh he came of age.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by AGRBear

I looked in the index of her book and didn't find his name.

Bear it might have been in "By Influence & Desire: The True Story of Three Extraordinary Women--the Grand Duchess of Courland and Her Daughters" by Rosalynd Pflaum. My books are running together with all their info. I apologize Bear!

[AGRBear]

A book I don't have. So, what does it tell us?

AGRBear

[Grace Angel]

Originally Posted by Russophile

Really? That's interesting. Hmmm. I might have confused books but I distinctly remember Catherine and Metternich corresponding about many things. Liberal views included.
Oh Bear! You are so very thorough. I wish my memory was more accurate so that I might cite references without confusion!

I don't recall that. Perhaps you are confusing it with her correspondence with Voltaire, about liberal ideas. She also corresponded with Denis Diderot, a French philosopher and he even came to Russia, as I recall.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Grace Angel

I don't recall that. Perhaps you are confusing it with her correspondence with Voltaire, about liberal ideas. She also corresponded with Denis Diderot, a French philosopher and he even came to Russia, as I recall.

I may be confusing the personages! I know that one of the daughters of the Duchess was Metternich's lover. I'll have to get that book. (Preferably at a yard sale. . .)

[Grace Angel]

Did you read it from the library ( The By Influence and Desire book is that the one you said you'll have to buy)? I've never even heard of it but it sure sounds interesting. I looked it up on Amazon US and it's very cheap, one cent and four dollars shipping used. I will be reading it soon either from there or interlibrary loan, (if they have it). Thanks for mentioning this great book I'd never heard of.

[RubyPrincess168]

I read a biography of her within the last year and was really impressed. It's like she dragged Russia out of the dark ages. She did so much for them!

[lucien]

Originally Posted by AGRBear

I have many books on Cath. II "the Great", and, at the moment I don't recall in which was voiced a rumor that Cath.'s natural father was the future Prussian King Fred. II "the Great", who was said to have bedded Cath. mother. And, though the years of reading, it seem to me the rumors might have been based on several interesting facts. It was Fred. II who pushed her marriage to Peter III and that he demanded she visit him before heading off to Russia.

The birth date of Cath. II was said to have been changed and because she was a precocious young girl Cath. was able to make people think she was older than she really was.

Now, don't jump all over me. As far as I am aware, it is just a rumor.

AGRBear

Frederik not so much demanded Catherine to come and see him before she was off to Russia,it was usance for german
bred noble brides to say farewell to their Monarch,as he was to give permission as well for a marriage ins ausland,
upon leaving the country to get married abroad.
So,you can't derive anything from that visit.

I think the best books,and the person with absolutely the best and most intimite knowledge on Catherine the Great
is Isabel de Mandariaga,author.

She,nor any historical,or histerical if you wish,paper/document referres to Fred fathering her.He didn't father around
that much,his interests "lay" more with the same sex thing,not a bad choice either.And it keeps one from false accusations.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Grace Angel

Did you read it from the library ( The By Influence and Desire book is that the one you said you'll have to buy)? I've never even heard of it but it sure sounds interesting. I looked it up on Amazon US and it's very cheap, one cent and four dollars shipping used. I will be reading it soon either from there or interlibrary loan, (if they have it). Thanks for mentioning this great book I'd never heard of.

Yes, the interlibray loan system in Portland, Oregon is quite good. There are lots of interesting lovely things. When I used to frequent Klamath Falls, I found Minnie's bio. there.

[Marengo]

Originally Posted by lucien

Frederik not so much demanded Catherine to come and see him before she was off to Russia,it was usance for german
bred noble brides to say farewell to their Monarch,as he was to give permission as well for a marriage ins ausland,
upon leaving the country to get married abroad.
So,you can't derive anything from that visit.

I think the best books,and the person with absolutely the best and most intimite knowledge on Catherine the Great
is Isabel de Mandariaga,author.

She,nor any historical,or histerical if you wish,paper/document referres to Fred fathering her.He didn't father around
that much,his interests "lay" more with the same sex thing,not a bad choice either.And it keeps one from false accusations.

I had no idea about this, though I have the book (unread, but still). Where oh where did things turn sour . Later in life he would talk about 'Die Hure' (the wh#re) when referring to Catherine. A dubious honor she had to share with Maria Theresia of Austria btw. And to make it even more intruiging, Frederik had a portrait of both ladies in his bedroom. I suppose that technically Anhalt was independant and Catherine's father was 'her' monarch. Though already in these days many smaller protestant duchies and principalities were under Prussian custody, so to speak.

He had the same fathering tendencies over his niece Wilhelima who married Dutch stadholder Willem V btw, always urging her to be careful.

[Grace Angel]

Originally Posted by RubyPrincess168

I read a biography of her within the last year and was really impressed. It's like she dragged Russia out of the dark ages. She did so much for them!

I think it was Peter the Great who dragged Russia out of the dark ages.

[AGRBear]

Frederick II "The Great", from what I understand, believed that he'd be able to control the future Catherine II "the Great" by promising her support from the time her name was first mentioned as possible bride for Peter. He already, had the right people surrounding the future Peter III, who was devoted to the Kaiser and everything Prussian and Frederick II thought wooing young Catherine was just icing on his political cake, so to speak. Frederick II went out of his way to turn Elisabeth II's eyes toward young Catharina's portrait that was sent.... When Catherine took control of Russia, Frederick II wasn't distrubed because he felt he'd be able to run all over her and he'd take Russia from the top on down.... BUT, Catherine II hadn't risked her life just to be Frederick II's puppet. Frederick II under estimated Catherine just like so many others had.

As for Frederick II's attraction to men and women, well, it appears he had his moments with both. From either a man or a women, it has been reported that he suffered from a sexually transmitted disease and the doctoring wasn't all that great...
It seems Frederick II and Peter III had the same unpleasant experiences. Anyway, unlike Catherine II, who left a trail of lovers, Frederick II was more discreet.

I'm not sure if Frederick II called Catherine II a "wh_re" and other unpleasant descriptive words because of her sexual actitivies or because she was in the political beds with the British, Poles and the French.



AGRBear

[Grace Angel]

Well, she was famous for her lovers, so he was likely referencing that. Not that he was such a saint himself, as you note. Catharine was too shrewd to be taken by Frederick like her husband. Peter III was very devoted to Germany anyway ( his father was German) and Frderick didn't even need to have people around Peter III to turn Peter's thoughts to hero worship of him. By all accounts, Peter III hero worshiped Frederick a long, long, time. Peter III would have made a great ruler of Holstein, his father's realm, but he never identified with Russia. Perhaps had his mother lived longer, he would have. I think Peter III's rather idiotic worship of Frederick put Catharine further off Frederick. Maybe she would have a slightly better attitude towards Frederick had not her husband who she never loved demonstrated such naive hero worship of him.

[AGRBear]

THE LOVES OF CATHERINE THE GREAT by Nikolaev and Parry p. 253 is the list considered to be her top 12 lovers:

Sergei Vasilievich Saltykov
Count Stanislas Augustus Poniatowki
Prince Gregory Gregorievich Orlov
Alexander Semyonovich Vasilchikov
Prince Gregory Alexandrovich Potemkin-Tavrichesky
Count Peter Basilievich Zavadorsky
Semyon Gavrilovich Zorich
Ivan Nikolaievich Rimsky-Korsakov
Alexander Dmitrievich Lanskoy
Alexander Petrovich Yermolov
Count Alexander Matveievich Dmitriyev-Mamonov
Prince Platon Alexanrovich Zubov



AGRBear

[Marengo]

Originally Posted by AGRBear

I'm not sure if Frederick II called Catherine II a "wh_re" and other unpleasant descriptive words because of her sexual actitivies or because she was in the political beds with the British, Poles and the French.

AGRBear

I think the latter, he called Empress Maria Theresia the same way, and nobody could accuse her of having lovers.

[Al_bina]

Pikul implied that Count Stanislas Poniatowski was Catherine's II only true love. They had deep feelings for each other. However, Catherine II and Count Poniatowski realised impossibility of their long-term relationships. He never married anyone, even for the sake of appearances.