Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

Popularity of the "Anastasia" legend and a desire to believe it

Ever since the 1920's, the story of the escaped princess fascinated and captivated the public's attention. After Rathlef's serialized story on Anderson was published, there were "Anastasia" brand cigarettes and candy being sold in Berlin, and even a night club tune written in her honor. If she were only Franziska, that was no fun!

There were also lawsuits against Frau Rathlef Keilmann on the grounds of that she was trying to defraud the Romanovs. Of course, she won hands down. Lucke from Die Nachtausgabe also threatened with a libel suit after it was claimed that he received bribes from Darmstadt. When he was told that the Grand Duke of Hesse would be called in as a witness, he dropped the suit like a hot potato.

Later, another issue working against Berenberg-Gossler and the others trying to disprove Anderson's claim was when a round of the case coincided with the 1956 release of Twentieth Century Fox's box office hit "Anastasia", starring Ingrid Bergman. The grossly inaccurate but very popular movie helped legitimize Anderson's claims in the court of public opinion and made things a lot more difficult for Berenberg-Gossler. The court case had a large following in German tabloids and many readers who saw the movie thought it was a true story. People wanted to believe, and didn't want to hear that it wasn't true. It was much easier for them to accept the 'evil relative' excuse than to face the truth- the real Anastasia was dead, and Anna Anderson was only a Polish factory worker who'd lucked into the role of her life.

You mean to tell me that the tabloids ran the court and not the judges?

Prince Michael Romanov, a grandson of Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna, stated that while the family always knew Anderson to be an imposter, the legend around her made it much more difficult to convince others.

The family, yes, with the exeption of Xenia Leeds, Grand Duchess Xenia (according to Xenia Leeds) and Grand Duke Andrew. And was it not Prince Michael who said to Botkin: Of course, Olga knows better than anybody that she is Anastasia.

With a host of movies, books and newspaper articles promoting Anna Anderson's claims from the 1920's to the present day the Romanoff family found it increasingly difficult to escape the soap opera, for all the glories of a once magnificent imperial dynasty it was Anderson's claims most people wanted to talk about.

"Over the years friends and acquaintances who had seen the movies or read the books on Anderson would lecture me on why she was genuine," Prince Michael recalls, "few would listen to or accept the otherside of the argument. It was infuriating but after a while I just stopped arguing, what point was it?, how could I compete with the glamorous tales being created by the entertainment industry."

And why should Prince Michael argue, he never met AA. He was sure of her identity and suggested to Xenia Leeds that AA could stay in his palace in Italy while waiting to go to America. But already the next day, he withdrew the offer and made fun of Xenia Leeds for wanting to invite AA over. Seems like somebody got to HIM in a hurry.

The Media's portrayal

Perhaps the biggest factor in the long life of the charade was the public interest, the media's presentation and sensationalism. Dr. von Berenberg-Gossler said that during Anderson's German court cases the press were always more interested in reporting her side of the story than the opposing benches' less glamorous perspective. Editors often pulled journalists after reporting testimony delivered by her side and ignored the rebuttal, resulting in the public seldom getting a complete picture. This is a big factor in why the story is always told so slanted to her side, and why I am here today trying to balance it out.

And what else do you expect to hear from her opposition?

[ChatNoir]

It was all about the money.

No other claimant had a multimillion dollar claim and lawsuit. Money, the root of all evil, money that turns otherwise nice people into greedy monsters. Anderson claimed that she, as "Anastasia" was told by her father of enormous amounts of money deposited in European banks in the names of the Grand Duchesses. Anyone who could prove they were one of the Tsar's children stood to inherit countless millions.

Yes, and guess who went to The Bank of England exactly 10 years after the murder of the IF to claim the fortune? It was certainly not her backers!

Thus, Anderson became a sort of 'cash cow' to her supporters, and backing her until she proved her identity and claimed her fortune was making it profitable indeed to be a supporter.

Name ONE person who would have benefitted. Just ONE!

While in reality there was no such mysterious fortune, and the surviving Romanovs seemed not to be well off financially, the lure of it was enough to drive the claim onward.

Are you talking about the Romanovs now?

Ironically, while most Anderson supporters to this day will use greed and lying for money as the motivation of those who denied her, it appears that may well have been the other way around!(some lying or embellishing to support her in the event of a big payoff if she won)

You better be prepared to back up this claim.

[Anna was Franziska]

Chat I started off my post by saying it would never please you and I didn't expect to. I owe you no explainations or 'back ups' until you tell me WHY the intestines AND hair were not AA's yet matched each other perfectly, and why the bones found last year are not the last two missing kids, meaning all claimants are false for sure, intestines, hair, or not. You have some nerve asking anyone for anything until you can prove the DNA tests are not proof AA was an imposter. If you can't, you have no case at all.

I'm not even going to bother to answer your comments since most of them make no sense and are not even what I was saying, and the rest, of course, mean nothing since AA was not AN. OF COURSE no one benefitted but that does not mean they didn't hope to, or what was the point? No, I do not mean the Romanovs now. What?

Some of us would like to move past the silly, outdated, scientifically disproven AA fantasy and explore and discuss how AA/FS pulled it off for so long. If you don't want to do this, please don't ruin it for the rest of us.

ATTENTION MODS: May we please have a separate thread for discussion on how AA/FS did it without the same old AA lists and rhetoric ruining it?

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Chat I started off my post by saying it would never please you and I didn't expect to. I owe you no explainations or 'back ups' until you tell me WHY the intestines AND hair were not AA's yet matched each other perfectly, and why the bones found last year are not the last two missing kids, meaning all claimants are false for sure, intestines, hair, or not. You have some nerve asking anyone for anything until you can prove the DNA tests are not proof AA was an imposter. If you can't, you have no case at all.

Whomever AA was, you still have to back up your statements. And if you have to re-write history in order to make it all fit, it only makes the whole case seem even stranger.

I'm not even going to bother to answer your comments since most of them make no sense and are not even what I was saying, and the rest, of course, mean nothing since AA was not AN. OF COURSE no one benefitted but that does not mean they didn't hope to, or what was the point? No, I do not mean the Romanovs now. What?

Of course you are not going to answer my comments, you know by now that you get nowhere.

Some of us would like to move past the silly, outdated, scientifically disproven AA fantasy and explore and discuss how AA/FS pulled it off for so long. If you don't want to do this, please don't ruin it for the rest of us.

You mean so you can write all the fiction you want and not have to back it up?

[COUNTESS]

I, believe, the fiction, is that AA was AN. Whether AA was FS, that I do not know. While all the scientiific evidence points to the first, it is harder to prove the latter. That she was prompted, was even perhaps present at the events she "remembered", AA was a fraud. That her mystery has made wonderful fiction and has lined the pockets of writers and film makers was even better. People love romantic tales about escaping death and wandering about..... I do not even know if AA, who was considered mentally disturb, by some, really believed the fiction. Actors play roles and start to fill the shoes of their screen parts. I do not know if any of you have watched the many years of M*A*S*H*, the great series or the many years of reruns, but I am reminded of what the nutty Col. Flagg once said, and I quote, "I keep myself in a constant state of confusion, so even I don't know the truth". Amusing as that statement is, after a while you might just start believing in all the hype.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

I do not even know if AA, who was considered mentally disturb, by some, really believed the fiction. Actors play roles and start to fill the shoes of their screen parts. I do not know if any of you have watched the many years of M*A*S*H*, the great series or the many years of reruns, but I am reminded of what the nutty Col. Flagg once said, and I quote, "I keep myself in a constant state of confusion, so even I don't know the truth". Amusing as that statement is, after a while you might just start believing in all the hype.

That's one thing we'll never know, if and when she started to believe it. I think she did, at least in her old age, but I do believe she knew who she was and what she was doing well into the trial. Actors can cross over and become their roles if their minds go, look at poor Johnny Weissmuller who played Tarzan. In his old age he was caught several times by police running down the street making his famous "Tarzan" yell. He had played a character and in his old age and dementia, it took over. Since AA had strange mental problems all along (and FS had been declared insane) it's even more likely she went off the deep end.

[Anna was Franziska]

You mean so you can write all the fiction you want and not have to back it up?

Chat, I posted my reasoning under the heading of it being IDEAS - observations and logical deduction on what must have happened, since AA WAS NOT AN! As I've said many times before, you'll never have 'proof' of who told her what and when, because no one goes around leaving paper trails of fraud! Surely none of that was ever written down in diaries or left lying around on paper, and even if it was I'm sure their relatives would have detroyed it after they died.This, however, does not give you a free pass to deny it never happend, because it DID happen, since AA WAS NOT AN and this has been proven!

If you're so set on 'backing stuff up' go ahead and back up why you don't accept the DNA results and be specific.

[ChatNoir]

I have nothing to "back up", I don't promote "ideas, observations and logical deductions". I simply stick to what I know, and if this does not fit into your view, that is not my problem.

[Anna was Franziska]

Yes you sure do stick to what you know, the same old worn out rhetoric, lists, and quotes from decades ago, again and again. You never add or accept anything new, like that the DNA has proven AA to be a fraud and none of the rest matters anymore.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

On the other side, FS went to school, worked several jobs in Berlin and Bütow, was in and out of hospitals etc. Still, when the pictures of AA were plastered all over the press, nobody, and I mean nobody, ever came forward and claimed that they had recognized their old schoolmate/co-worker/friend/patient. The only one who claimed to have recognized her, was, of course, Doris Wingender, who had "identified" her from a photo that was not much more than a blurb. As the judge said: From this you could recognize anybody or nobody.

You contradict yourself here. You say why didn't anyone recognize the picture, then you say nobody could recognize anyone from that picture! Also note that no one saw the picture and said "HEY THERE'S ANASTASIA!" and she was a lot more famous than FS. So you really do shoot yourself in the foot with this one.

It also needs to be considered that FS probably didn't stick out in anyone's mind. Her jobs were short lived, just another worker in the room, hard to tell or remember one from another. Her schoolmates likely lived in poverty in rural areas with little to no access to media, or money to buy papers even if they did come that far. Many rural papers in the US don't even have news from outside the region. Those people probably never saw or heard of the AA case- if they EVER did- until the 50s when it was on TV news and by then she had changed so much. That area was by then under communist rule, so it's likely all news was censored or TVs not common. And in the end, if someone had recognized her, they probably knew the family and would have gone to them first, and been told to hush up and not spoil her 'career', and perhaps they'd be rewarded later. So it really doesn't mean much that nobody in FS's hometown came forward.

And if Anna Vyrubova had identified her, as Lili Dehn did, you would have found a way to discredit her as well. Both Olga and Gilliard left Berlin "without being able to say that she was NOT the Grand Duchess." Only three months later, without ever seeing her again, did they suddenly make a U-turn, and Gilliard became The Representative of the House of Hesse. Buxhoeveden obviously had her own reasons.

Lili was an elderly lady tricked by lines from her own book, and the acceptance was later denied by Lili's daughter (and I've posted you the link numerous times so don't pretend I never have) Anna V., like Sophie Bux, was very close to the family- I would say closer to the girls on a daily basis than anyone left alive, even Olga or Gilliard. Anna V's denial would have been a death blow to AA's case, especially since by the time of the trial she had become a nun and it would have been a lot harder to brand her as a 'greedy liar' 'thief' etc. as AA and her supporters did all the others close to AN who denounced AA.This is why she was never asked, it was just too risky. The "Rasputin's disciple" excuse used by the Botkins doesn't hold water, since the real AN loved Rasputin!

The DNA says NO! But since we cannot be 100% sure if the samples in question really did belong to AA, it leaves the door open for the mystery to continue.

No the door is NOT still open, other than in your fantasies. If you're not sure, then you need to tell us why. The old he said/she said from the past do not equal the DNA. Remember not only the intestines but the hair denied she was AN, and they matched each other- please explain how that happened if they both weren't hers. And there is the matter of the last 2 missing children being found, making it all moot anyway. Unless you can come forward with something earthshattering to prove all those tests were wrong, I'm afraid it's over for you.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

You contradict yourself here. You say why didn't anyone recognize the picture, then you say nobody could recognize anyone from that picture!

I am talking about a specific photo that Doris Wingender presented in court as evidence, not the myriad of photos of AA that were out there for the public to see.

Also note that no one saw the picture and said "HEY THERE'S ANASTASIA!" and she was a lot more famous than FS. So you really do shoot yourself in the foot with this one.

As you have stated i a previous post, Anastasia had very few playmates and was known by few. And several of these were killed during the revolution.

It also needs to be considered that FS probably didn't stick out in anyone's mind.

You mean nobody remembered her remarkable eyes, her unusual haircolor, her extremely bad German?

Her jobs were short lived, just another worker in the room, hard to tell or remember one from another.

Well, if anybody dropped a grenade in my factory, I would certainly remember her for a long time!

Her schoolmates likely lived in poverty in rural areas with little to no access to media, or money to buy papers even if they did come that far. Many rural papers in the US don't even have news from outside the region. Those people probably never saw or heard of the AA case- if they EVER did- until the 50s when it was on TV news and by then she had changed so much. That area was by then under communist rule, so it's likely all news was censored or TVs not common.

I lived a rather penurious life in the rural area of Norway, but we had newspapers and even read about the Anna Andersen story so far away.

And in the end, if someone had recognized her, they probably knew the family and would have gone to them first, and been told to hush up and not spoil her 'career', and perhaps they'd be rewarded later. So it really doesn't mean much that nobody in FS's hometown came forward.

Again, nothing but speculations. And as for spoiling her career, where does that come from? Dmitri Leuchtenberg?

Lili was an elderly lady tricked by lines from her own book, and the acceptance was later denied by Lili's daughter (and I've posted you the link numerous times so don't pretend I never have)

Yes, I know you have posted it, and there was NO denial. Only a confirmation that the two ladies were too old to recognize each other on first sight. Please get your story straight!

Anna V., like Sophie Bux, was very close to the family- I would say closer to the girls on a daily basis than anyone left alive, even Olga or Gilliard.

And so was Lili Dehn.

Anna V's denial would have been a death blow to AA's case, especially since by the time of the trial she had become a nun and it would have been a lot harder to brand her as a 'greedy liar' 'thief' etc. as AA and her supporters did all the others close to AN who denounced AA.This is why she was never asked, it was just too risky. The "Rasputin's disciple" excuse used by the Botkins doesn't hold water, since the real AN loved Rasputin!

So why didn't the opposition call her to the witness stand?
As for Rasputin, AA was furious with his critics, because, in her eyes, "he was a saint".

No the door is NOT still open, other than in your fantasies. If you're not sure, then you need to tell us why. The old he said/she said from the past do not equal the DNA. Remember not only the intestines but the hair denied she was AN, and they matched each other- please explain how that happened if they both weren't hers. And there is the matter of the last 2 missing children being found, making it all moot anyway. Unless you can come forward with something earthshattering to prove all those tests were wrong, I'm afraid it's over for you.

First you tell me where AA got all her information from. Then you post the results from the labs that are still testing those bones. And if you are so sure that Anastasia is dead, why do you have to resort to speculations and denials of certain facts in order to fit your belief? The real story should be no threat, or what?

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Yes you sure do stick to what you know, the same old worn out rhetoric, lists, and quotes from decades ago, again and again. You never add or accept anything new, like that the DNA has proven AA to be a fraud and none of the rest matters anymore.

Sorry, I think it matters a great deal. And you do too, since you so adamantly are trying to silence me. In a way, you remind me very much of the Romanovs in those days. Almost all of them denying an impostor whom they had never met, but still fighting her beak and claw. And all other claimants were ignored.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

I am talking about a specific photo that Doris Wingender presented in court as evidence, not the myriad of photos of AA that were out there for the public to see.

Which ones were these? Exactly how were they spread to the public? Most of all, if they were AA, and AA looked like AN (which she didn't of course) why didn't anyone say HEY LOOK IT's ANASTASIA? Half a million Russian emigres' in Germany you know! So yes that's very self defeating for you.

As you have stated i a previous post, Anastasia had very few playmates and was known by few. And several of these were killed during the revolution.

What playmates were killed?

You mean nobody remembered her remarkable eyes, her unusual haircolor, her extremely bad German?

Again you shoot yourself in the foot. Again you defeat yourself, because the real AN had no remarkable eyes, that was Marie. The hair color is as I've said USELESS to both sides due to the subjectiveness of the viewer and the ease of changing it via dye. German was cleary AA/FS's best language and her lifelong language of choice. It was English and Russian that were bad for her, and French nonexistent.

Well, if anybody dropped a grenade in my factory, I would certainly remember her for a long time!

Again I go back to remember the time and place and lack of contact and media for most average workers.

I lived a rather penurious life in the rural area of Norway, but we had newspapers and even read about the Anna Andersen story so far away.

We're talking about the 1920's on the German/Polish border not recently.

So why didn't the opposition call her to the witness stand?

They should have tried!

First you tell me where AA got all her information from. Then you post the results from the labs that are still testing those bones. And if you are so sure that Anastasia is dead, why do you have to resort to speculations and denials of certain facts in order to fit your belief? The real story should be no threat, or what?

The only threat is you misleading innocent info seekers with your old snake oil story. I have to keep behind you with the tar and feather to make sure you don't. AA obviously got her info from others who knew the family. If you can't prove the DNA tests are wrong you have NO case. NONE.Get this through your head- DNA results and the personal recollections of people in the past are NOT on equal footing and not of equal value! The court cases tossing convictions based on testimonies and alleged identifications proves this without doubt!

And the reason all other claimants were ignored is because they didn't have savvy backers and million dollar lawsuits.

[Anna was Franziska]

Chat if you've got some money to blow here's a good purchase opportunity for you, right up your alley:

Elvis is Alive Museum is apparently set to die - Yahoo! News

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Which ones were these? Exactly how were they spread to the public? Most of all, if they were AA, and AA looked like AN (which she didn't of course) why didn't anyone say HEY LOOK IT's ANASTASIA? Half a million Russian emigres' in Germany you know! So yes that's very self defeating for you.

First of all, the general public saw little more of Anastasia than retouched court photos from before the revolution. When AA was found, the police sent out photos of her to the far corners of the Weimar Republic, resulting in people coming to Dalldorf to see her in the hopes that she might be a missing relative. They all went home disappointed. As the Grand Duchess story broke and forwards, AA's photo was in newspapers and magazines as far away as New York. I doubt that the general public would tie those mug shots to the perfect court photos of AN. But then again, nobody tied them to FS either.

What playmates were killed?

I did not say that her playmates were killed, but several of the people who knew her intimately.

Again you shoot yourself in the foot. Again you defeat yourself, because the real AN had no remarkable eyes, that was Marie.

As Frau Gitta Miller Müttler said to AA's lawyer: "The most remarkable thing about her are the eyes, I have never seen such eyes before.

The hair color is as I've said USELESS to both sides due to the subjectiveness of the viewer and the ease of changing it via dye.

Yes, I am sure they had a very good hair colorist at Dalldorf.

German was cleary AA/FS's best language and her lifelong language of choice. It was English and Russian that were bad for her, and French nonexistent.

As Gleb Botkin wrote: Xenia and AA talked together entirely in English, which AA spoke much better and fluently than German.

Again I go back to remember the time and place and lack of contact and media for most average workers.

And you think most people could not afford a common newspaper? Get real!

We're talking about the 1920's on the German/Polish border not recently.

And I am talking Norway just after the war.

They should have tried!

And why do you think they did not?

The only threat is you misleading innocent info seekers with your old snake oil story.

Sorry, but this is the real story, no matter how much you try to change it.

I have to keep behind you with the tar and feather to make sure you don't.

Not doing much good, but as long as it makes you feel useful, be my guest.

AA obviously got her info from others who knew the family.

And who were those others?

If you can't prove the DNA tests are wrong you have NO case. NONE.Get this through your head- DNA results and the personal recollections of people in the past are NOT on equal footing and not of equal value! The court cases tossing convictions based on testimonies and alleged identifications proves this without doubt!

No matter what the DNA outcome is, the story is still the same.

And the reason all other claimants were ignored is because they didn't have savvy backers and million dollar lawsuits.

Oh, really? If I remember correctly, the Grand Duke of Hesse launched his offence long before it was talk about lawsuits, as did Grand Duke Alexander. And who were her savvy backers again?

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

First of all, the general public saw little more of Anastasia than retouched court photos from before the revolution.

Only YOU say they were retouched. What about all the emigres', they were not the 'general public.' Again you play both sides, you say people wouldn't know her, then say they did when it suits you if someone accepts AA?

When AA was found, the police sent out photos of her to the far corners of the Weimar Republic, resulting in people coming to Dalldorf to see her in the hopes that she might be a missing relative. They all went home disappointed. As the Grand Duchess story broke and forwards, AA's photo was in newspapers and magazines as far away as New York. I doubt that the general public would tie those mug shots to the perfect court photos of AN. But then again, nobody tied them to FS either.

You always say that 'far corners' story yet what do you mean? A couple of newspapers, a few police stations? There were no milk carton kids or 'have you seen me's' or amber alerts in those days, or even TV. Really how many of those milk carton kids could you really tell even if they were living next door? The picture FA on AP showed us looked nothing like AA and was a drawing. Please show the picture used and described how it was used.

As Frau Gitta Miller Müttler said to AA's lawyer: "The most remarkable thing about her are the eyes, I have never seen such eyes before.

Who the heck is this no name and how would she know AN?

Yes, I am sure they had a very good hair colorist at Dalldorf.

Hair color is useless because it's all subjective, what some call brown others call blonde, what some call red others say is just plain brown or blonde with a few highlights others don't notice. If you're getting your matching hair color story from Gleb Botkin that's not going to fly- he also described AN with a 'short flat chin and a wide mouth' when AN had a long, curved chin and a small thin mouth, he was only making it look good for AA since she did have a short flat chin, big lips and wide mouth!

As Gleb Botkin wrote: Xenia and AA talked together entirely in English, which AA spoke much better and fluently than German.

Or so he says, but anyway, she was coached in English before she left Germany as Dmitri L. stated. I guess Leeds didn't know much German. But the biggest question is, why would two Russian cousins- if in fact they were- speak anything but Russian?! Isn't that rather glaring that Leeds had to use English because AA couldn't speak Russian?

And you think most people could not afford a common newspaper? Get real!

When you have no money for food a newspaper is a luxury. Also a lot of people were illiterate.

And I am talking Norway just after the war.

What war? Are you 80 years old now Chat?

Sorry, but this is the real story, no matter how much you try to change it.

Gone with the Wind and Star Wars are real stories too, but they are stories, and they're never going to turn to reality any more than AA's. The story happened, yes, but she's not really AN.

Oh, really? If I remember correctly, the Grand Duke of Hesse launched his offence long before it was talk about lawsuits, as did Grand Duke Alexander. And who were her savvy backers again?

If someone was pretending to be my dead niece I'd do the same- set out to prove she was a fake and put the story to rest. One of the most disturbing things about you and other AA supporters is your lack of compassion for those who lost so many family members in the revolution (Ernie, Irene, Olga A) in your desire to brand them all greedy liars to hold onto your AA fantasy. It's actually very disgusting and wrong.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Only YOU say they were retouched.

ALL public photos of the IF were retouched, that is a common fact.

What about all the emigres', they were not the 'general public.' Again you play both sides, you say people wouldn't know her, then say they did when it suits you if someone accepts AA?

The emigrees were just that, the general public who probably did not come closer to the IF than a glimpse of them at a public event. As for the ones who accepted AA as AN, they all knew her personally.

You always say that 'far corners' story yet what do you mean? A couple of newspapers, a few police stations?

To all police stations, no papers as far as I know.

The picture FA on AP showed us looked nothing like AA and was a drawing. Please show the picture used and described how it was used.

I have no idea what picture you are referring to. The police photo was the one taken in June of 1920 when she was at Dalldorf.

Who the heck is this no name and how would she know AN?

From Peter Kurth: A woman who met her at a tea party recalled: "But the most overwhelming feature about her are her eyes. Of a greyish-blue, changing color, they shine like stars. Looking into them one seems to see unfathomable depths, as in very deep mountain lakes. I have never seen such eyes before." (Gitta Müller-Mittler to Fallows, September 5, 1935.)

Hair color is useless because it's all subjective, what some call brown others call blonde, what some call red others say is just plain brown or blonde with a few highlights others don't notice.

If I remember correctly, Isa described her hair as the color of Anastasia's, just a tad lighter. Olga and Shura did the same thing, but thought it was a tad darker, but with the same wave. The Botkins described her hair as the same color as Anastasia's.

If you're getting your matching hair color story from Gleb Botkin that's not going to fly- he also described AN with a 'short flat chin and a wide mouth' when AN had a long, curved chin and a small thin mouth, he was only making it look good for AA since she did have a short flat chin, big lips and wide mouth!

See photos.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h4...00064020-2.jpg

Nice and wide.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h4...iacollage2.jpg

Seems like the same jaw to me....

Or so he says, but anyway, she was coached in English before she left Germany as Dmitri L. stated. I guess Leeds didn't know much German.

Yes, she "studied" Mother Goose Rhymes with Faith Lavington, who said: It is clear to me that she knows English very well, the trouble is to get her to speak. When she does, she speaks with the purest accent, I am surprised at the purity of her speach.

But the biggest question is, why would two Russian cousins- if in fact they were- speak anything but Russian?! Isn't that rather glaring that Leeds had to use English because AA couldn't speak Russian?

Well, Xenia lived in America and used English every day. But to be fair: Gleb Botkin and Xenia spoke in Russsian, and AA spoke English. But it was clear that she followed every word of the conversation.

When you have no money for food a newspaper is a luxury. Also a lot of people were illiterate.

Aha. So now the Schanzkowskis are starving. And all those kids who went to school are now illiterate. You should be on SNL, you are always good for a laugh.

What war? Are you 80 years old now Chat?

Remember WWII? I was 60 yesterday.

Gone with the Wind and Star Wars are real stories too, but they are stories, and they're never going to turn to reality any more than AA's. The story happened, yes, but she's not really AN.

I think you are a bit tired now. Try this one again.

If someone was pretending to be my dead niece I'd do the same- set out to prove she was a fake and put the story to rest.

To the tune of $10,000? In the 30's?

One of the most disturbing things about you and other AA supporters is your lack of compassion for those who lost so many family members in the revolution (Ernie, Irene, Olga A) in your desire to brand them all greedy liars to hold onto your AA fantasy. It's actually very disgusting and wrong.

May I ask for compassion for the Botkins who lost their brother in the war and their father in Ekaterinburg?

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

ALL public photos of the IF were retouched, that is a common fact.

Never heard anyone but you say it. Well maybe AGR Bear.

The emigrees were just that, the general public who probably did not come closer to the IF than a glimpse of them at a public event. As for the ones who accepted AA as AN, they all knew her personally.

All? really? I don't see anyone who had a personal relationship with her accept her except your Botkins who, well, you know what I think.

To all police stations, no papers as far as I know.

Well there you go, that's not exactly widespread, and most people would never see them.

I have no idea what picture you are referring to. The police photo was the one taken in June of 1920 when she was at Dalldorf.

Mugshot?

From Peter Kurth: A woman who met her at a tea party recalled: "But the most overwhelming feature about her are her eyes. Of a greyish-blue, changing color, they shine like stars. Looking into them one seems to see unfathomable depths, as in very deep mountain lakes. I have never seen such eyes before." (Gitta Müller-Mittler to Fallows, September 5, 1935.

She's talking about AA, not AN.

See photos.

See mine

Anna Anderson: Exposed! | The Fact, Fiction and Fantasy surrounding the myth of "Anastasia"

Aha. So now the Schanzkowskis are starving. And all those kids who went to school are now illiterate. You should be on SNL, you are always good for a laugh.

I'm not talking about the family but people in the general area who might have known her, as you always try to say nobody who knew her...

Remember WWII? I was 60 yesterday.

I suppose it doesn't matter that I don't believe you are sixty, or Norwegian, even if you were, that would mean you were born 3 years after the war was over and it would be the mid 50's before you could read a newspaper which verifies my point that it was the 50's before people in outlying areas got the news due to TV and widespread media. I was talking about Poland in the 20's so this has nothing do to with the story!

To the tune of $10,000? In the 30's?

the 20's, and yes if I had it. As a matter of fact if I had it I'd pay a million to bury your stupid AA story into the ground!

May I ask for compassion for the Botkins who lost their brother in the war and their father in Ekaterinburg?

The difference is, Olga, Ernie and Irene were innocent.

[bruser]

If only she had spoken in russian,somthing she said she would never do again.If only the grand duchess had agreed to see her but she refused.It's a sad story and i still think she was the princess anastasia.

[Menarue]

bruser what is your position on dna identification?