Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

Thank you, Tsarskoe, you put it in a very nice perspective. Just let me add one thing: Grandiosity is something one cannot accuse AA of.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Again, listen to Annie and Dmitri, those two girls got it right all along. AA and FS look like twins. Especially after Gilliard's, as Annie says, outlining of the features of FS.

Dmitri is not even a girl, he's a guy!

Here is a post you made on AP on Aug. 1, 2007, using 'that silly painting' because you don't dare use the photo which is a dead ringer for AA. This is only one of many times you have used it on several forums. It's also on my forum posted by you numerous times.

That photo of FS does resemble AA a lot. The painting is not as important as the photograph.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Are you accusing them of falsifying information?

I think embellishing the truth is the right expression here.

Okay, one more time- you claim the picture of FS was 'retouched' to look like AA. This means you apparently admit it looks like AA. However, it does NOT look like AN, which means that AA does not look like AN. Right?
Here is a post you made on AP on Aug. 1, 2007, using 'that silly painting' because you don't dare use the photo which is a dead ringer for AA. This is only one of many times you have used it on several forums. It's also on my forum posted by you numerous times.

This is not a "silly painting", this is the retouched photo of FS that the Nachtausgabe used. The same photo that made miss Leuchtenberg's heart sink.......

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

That is AA.

Absolutely. And it fits with her story.

[ChatNoir]

Just a little tidbit of history:
From the Norwegian newspaper Aftenposten re. an interview with the author of Princess Märhta's biography:

" men for meg var det en opplevelse å treffe et menneske som kunne fortelle om hvordan han lekte med tsarens yngste datter, Anastasia, som barn. "

"but for me it was an experience to meet a person (Princess Märtha's brother) who could tell about how he played with the Tsar's youngest daughter, Anastasia, as a child."

So it seems that Princess Märtha did indeed meet Anastasia.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

I think embellishing the truth is the right expression here.

I think it woud be embellishing to change the story to say she wasn't upset to see Doris.

This is not a "silly painting", this is the retouched photo of FS that the Nachtausgabe used. The same photo that made miss Leuchtenberg's heart sink.......

Nope, the picture you use is a painting, or drawing, and it looks nothing like AA, FS or AN. The picture that made the girl's heart sink was the photo.

Here's the difference:

Left: real photo, center: drawing or painting, right: retouch used by Gilliard

http://peterkurth.com/ANNA-ANASTASIA%20NOTES%20ON%20FRANZISKA%20SCHANZKOWSKA_files/image008.jpg

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Absolutely. And it fits with her story.

But she wasn't paranoid from being afraid of Bolsheviks, she was paranoid of getting caught in her charade pretending to be AN!

And meeting someone once as a little kid does not make you an accurate judge.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

I think it woud be embellishing to change the story to say she wasn't upset to see Doris.

According to the Duke of Leuchtenberg, it was very clear that the two ladies had never seen each other before.

Nope, the picture you use is a painting, or drawing, and it looks nothing like AA, FS or AN. The picture that made the girl's heart sink was the photo.

Sorry, this was the retouched photo that the Nachtausgabe used, with earrings and the whole nine yards. There is also another one in existence that Gilliard used for his La Fausse Anastasia, not quite as elaborately touched up.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

But she wasn't paranoid from being afraid of Bolsheviks, she was paranoid of getting caught in her charade pretending to be AN!

And you know this from where? Even Gerda Kleist moaned about how afraid she was of being caught by the Bolsheviks and brought back to Russia. Walking along the streets of Berlin, she would see a suspicious character and say: Schon wieder ein Bolshevist!

And meeting someone once as a little kid does not make you an accurate judge.

Well, she said what she said. And she clearly saw that she was not Tatiana.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

If you defend the 'real' story, you'd defend the DNA results.

What I am trying to tell you, is that I am trying to follow the story from February 1920 without mixing it with allegations and assumptions and my own opinions.

I do not have their book, I had to borrow it on an interlibrary loan and it's gone back. My library doesn't have it. If you have access to it, check the footnotes yourself.

Unfortunately, there are no footnotes. AA spoke to Volkov in German, and Harriet von Rathlef Keilmann translated. How would Volkov know if she made any mistakes or that Frau Rathlef Keilmann finished her answers if he did not understand the language they were delivered in? The truth is, Volkov was crying as he left AA, but he said to Frau Rathlef Keilmann: What if I now say that she is the Grand Duchess, and they say it is not? Where will I be then?

No one ever said Tatiana had blue eyes. Olga and Bux both thought AA resembled Tatiana from across the room, but on closer examination, the differences were more apparent. Remember that Clara P. said AA looked like Tatiana, not Anastasia. It was Tatiana she favored most, not AN, who looked nothing like Tatiana.

I think it was Lili Dehn who described Tatiana's eyes as blue. Anyway, as for the likeness with Tatiana, you have to remember that AA was now much older and much thinner that may have brought out the sisterly likeness. You can see in this photo (pardon the terrible quality) how she looks like Olga.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h4...lgaandAnna.jpg

So you're admitting she didn't know the girls well enough to be a judge one way or the other? That's the truth, she didn't. So stop listing her among those who accepted AA as AN since she wouldn't have known.

Well, we now know that they knew each other personally, but not when they last saw each other.

But she said it was, in a picture, a resemblance to Marie F., whom the real AN looked nothing like! And Ernie's trip has never been proven to have happened, and the rumors were out there in books. So this really is a tosser as well.

What Cecilie said, was this: I visited AA twice more after this, spending quite a long time with her on each of the three occasions. Today I am convinced she is the Tsar's youngest daughter: not only because, now she is an elderly woman, I can sometimes detect her mother's features in hers; but even more because the kinship is betrayed in her manner of behaviour and hospitality, in all the bonds of intimate knowledge and association which link people of the same origins together.
As for Ernie's trip to St. Petersburg, we have several witnesses who either helped him, met him en route, or saw him in person in Tsarskoe Selo.

You are using a double standard again. When members of the royal family reject her from pictures, you say it doesn't count if they don't meet her in person. So apparently if they accept her, it does count?

And what members of the Royal Family are we talking about?

Gleb's books on the Romanovs are full of unproveable claims. He was a creative writer of fiction, such as "The Baron's Fancy", a story close to AA's. This is not at all proof that Xenia knew AA was AN, in fact, her own children and grandchildren have said many times she did NOT accept AA.

And how would you know, have you read his books?
Grand Duchess Xenia did not acknowledge AA, but to Xenia Leeds she allegedly said that she knew her to not be an impostor.

[Anna was Franziska]

What I am trying to tell you, is that I am trying to follow the story from February 1920 without mixing it with allegations and assumptions and my own opinions.

But by defending AA as being AN, you are making allegations that the DNA tests are wrong. For if they are not, (and they aren't) you have on case and nothing else matters.

Think one more time of the improbability of all these switches: the intestines, the hair, and the bones in Russia. Sorry, but there is no way that your defense of the pro AA position is not a denial of the DNA, and allegations of either fraud, misconduct, ineptitude, or all three, of the scientists and labs who worked on all those tests.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

According to the Duke of Leuchtenberg, it was very clear that the two ladies had never seen each other before.

You choose to believe who you want. The other accounts tell a very different story. Even Faith Lavington, who had been in favor of AA, had her faith shaken by the incidents. She told it honestly in her diary. Both Lavington and the paper reporter declared AA yelled out angrily 'that thing must go/get out!'

Sorry, this was the retouched photo that the Nachtausgabe used, with earrings and the whole nine yards. There is also another one in existence that Gilliard used for his La Fausse Anastasia, not quite as elaborately touched up.

Lavington said the picture was a PHOTO- that one is a drawing. Look at it closely. The shape of the face and the width of the mouth and the distance between the eyes are not the same as the photo. It was a drawing, like the profile of AA.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

You choose to believe who you want. The other accounts tell a very different story. Even Faith Lavington, who had been in favor of AA, had her faith shaken by the incidents. She told it honestly in her diary. Both Lavington and the paper reporter declared AA yelled out angrily 'that thing must go/get out!'

Faith Lavington was not in the room, the Duke of Leuchtenberg was the only witness. And Doris just stood there like a dummy, never said 'Hi Franzisca' or anything, just glared. And AA did not yell, she said politely: Bitte, das soll rausgehen in her poor German. But the Nachtausgabe was royally paid for their story, so they had to deliver.

Lavington said the picture was a PHOTO- that one is a drawing. Look at it closely. The shape of the face and the width of the mouth and the distance between the eyes are not the same as the photo. It was a drawing, like the profile of AA.

And that is a photo, however heavily retouched. And that was what the Nachtausgabe used.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

But by defending AA as being AN, you are making allegations that the DNA tests are wrong. For if they are not, (and they aren't) you have on case and nothing else matters.

If telling the story as described from witnesses is wrong, so sue me!

Think one more time of the improbability of all these switches: the intestines, the hair, and the bones in Russia. Sorry, but there is no way that your defense of the pro AA position is not a denial of the DNA, and allegations of either fraud, misconduct, ineptitude, or all three, of the scientists and labs who worked on all those tests.

I never think about it, the AA story itself is too interesting. Whether she was AN or not is not so important. And until we have a legal ruling, I am having fun discussing this thing on the various boards.

[Warren]

As the "Translations of "La Fausse Anastasie" by Pierre Gilliard" thread has turned into a rehash of the "Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia" thread, the two threads have been merged.

Warren
Russian Forum moderator

[tian]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

I've read numerous books on the family and have never seen any reference to them meeting any member of the Swedish royals, other than Marie Pavolvna who married into them. Even if Nicholas may have met them, the children did not. Can you produce a source that proves otherwise?

Actually, Märtha and Anastasia met at least once. The Imperial Family made a state visit to Sweden in 1909. Pictures of this meeting can be found in Nicholas and Alexandra, The Family Albums p. 82-83 and The Russian Imperial Award System 1894-1917 p.345.

[tsarskoe]

Having previously been a staunch supporter of AA until the past could of years, I had to weigh a lot of contradictory evidence, testimony, etc to finally accept that AA was not Anastasia. There were two stories in particular which convinced me that AA was not authentic. The first was her insistence that ANR's English tutor Sydney Gibbes was partially deformed on one side of his body and that he trailed one foot/walked with a limp. She insisted this in the mid 1920's and again after she met Gibbes approximately three decades later. Sydney was not deformed nor did he limp, he did however hold his head at an odd angle during photographs which AA apparently mistook for a deformity. The real Anastasia would not have made such a mistake.

The other involves the Russian Captain Felix Dassel. Dassel had been wounded during WWI and was sent to the hospital of which GD Marie and Anastasia were patronesses. Eventually he was asked to act as chaperon for the two Duchesses. When he met AA during her stay with the Leuchtenberg family he asked her a series of trick questions all of which she apparently had gotten correct. He later wrote a book in support of her claim and testified during the never-ending German trail which ended in a stalemate.

Yet AA made two mistakes during her "recollections" while Dassel was visiting. The first which is could be written off as insignificant regards a comment Dassel made to AA that the Tsarevitch Alexei used to come with his sisters Marie and Anastasia during their visits to their hospital. AA was adamant that Alexei never went with them. Dassel concurred that this was correct. Yet there are photographs showing that Alexei did indeed visit the hospital with his sisters. Perhaps such visits were rare and thus neither Dassel or AA "recalled" them, perhaps. The second mistake is one that the true Grand Duchess Anastasia could not have made. It was mentioned to AA that Dassel had said that the Tsar had a tattoo on one of his arms. AA was vehement in her denial of this claim and stated that she had often seen his arms while he rowed boats and he certainly did not have any tattoos. (Kurth, 192) (I find it interesting that a low ranking soldier would know whether or not the Tsar had a tattoo or not.) Apparently this was = another of Dassel's trick questions which AA was supposedly successful at. Yet she was not. The Tsar did in fact have a tattoo on his arm. In fact it was a very large dragon that he had gotten in Japan before he had become Tsar. In his diary he mentioned the hours of pain he sustained during its creation. Even the Japanese police who carefully watched the foreign heir during his visit recorded his going to a tattoo parlor. There is simply no way the real Anastasia would have missed such a tattoo.

For more information about the Tsar's tattoo see the Alexander Palace Discussion board under Nicholas II (Under tattoo). Also note that Baron von Kleist's daughter Gerda who lived with AA when she was first removed from the Asylum by the Russian monarchists proclaimed that Captain Dassel had in fact visited AA in her father's home and thus had already shared his knowledge with AA only to come to see her while she was at the Leuchtenberg's and pretend that it was his first meeting with her.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by tsarskoe

Having previously been a staunch supporter of AA until the past could of years, I had to weigh a lot of contradictory evidence, testimony, etc to finally accept that AA was not Anastasia. There were two stories in particular which convinced me that AA was not authentic. The first was her insistence that ANR's English tutor Sydney Gibbes was partially deformed on one side of his body and that he trailed one foot/walked with a limp. She insisted this in the mid 1920's and again after she met Gibbes approximately three decades later. Sydney was not deformed nor did he limp, he did however hold his head at an odd angle during photographs which AA apparently mistook for a deformity. The real Anastasia would not have made such a mistake.

She never said that he limped, she said that 'he rather trailed one foot.' Do we have any other description of Gibbs somewhere?

The other involves the Russian Captain Felix Dassel. Dassel had been wounded during WWI and was sent to the hospital of which GD Marie and Anastasia were patronesses. Eventually he was asked to act as chaperon for the two Duchesses. When he met AA during her stay with the Leuchtenberg family he asked her a series of trick questions all of which she apparently had gotten correct. He later wrote a book in support of her claim and testified during the never-ending German trail which ended in a stalemate.

He did not write a book, it was rather more of a pamphlet. The whole edition was mysteriously bought up right after it came on the market and disappeared from circulation. Later, in 1927, when Dassel passed through Hesse on his travels, he was arrested for no reason. Somebody must have been very, very nervous about his identification of AA.

Yet AA made two mistakes during her "recollections" while Dassel was visiting. The first which is could be written off as insignificant regards a comment Dassel made to AA that the Tsarevitch Alexei used to come with his sisters Marie and Anastasia during their visits to their hospital. AA was adamant that Alexei never went with them. Dassel concurred that this was correct. Yet there are photographs showing that Alexei did indeed visit the hospital with his sisters. Perhaps such visits were rare and thus neither Dassel or AA "recalled" them, perhaps.

Which sisters? There was more than one hospital. Please let us know what sisters are shown in the photos.

The second mistake is one that the true Grand Duchess Anastasia could not have made. It was mentioned to AA that Dassel had said that the Tsar had a tattoo on one of his arms. AA was vehement in her denial of this claim and stated that she had often seen his arms while he rowed boats and he certainly did not have any tattoos. (Kurth, 192) (I find it interesting that a low ranking soldier would know whether or not the Tsar had a tattoo or not.) Apparently this was = another of Dassel's trick questions which AA was supposedly successful at. Yet she was not. The Tsar did in fact have a tattoo on his arm. In fact it was a very large dragon that he had gotten in Japan before he had become Tsar. In his diary he mentioned the hours of pain he sustained during its creation. Even the Japanese police who carefully watched the foreign heir during his visit recorded his going to a tattoo parlor. There is simply no way the real Anastasia would have missed such a tattoo.

No tattoo here:

Also note that Baron von Kleist's daughter Gerda who lived with AA when she was first removed from the Asylum by the Russian monarchists proclaimed that Captain Dassel had in fact visited AA in her father's home and thus had already shared his knowledge with AA only to come to see her while she was at the Leuchtenberg's and pretend that it was his first meeting with her.

And was it not Gerda who insisted in court that her sister was dead when the sister was very much alive "with fond memories of AA"? And she was also the one that told the judges that AA had "ducked under the table to wipe her nose on the table cloth". I'm afraid she stopped at nothing in order to discredit AA whom she was rather hostile towards. Let it also be known that she refused to testify on oath! Dassel did not visit the Kleists according to him, "he knew that circle of emigrees." Later, when AA came under the protection of the Duke of Leuchtenberg, he realized that there might be more to the claim than he first thought, and so he set off to Seeon to see for himself.
If he recognized her at Kleist's, why did he not come forward then? Why wait 5 years?

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

She never said that he limped, she said that 'he rather trailed one foot.' Do we have any other description of Gibbs somewhere?

I have wondered if perhaps the person(s) giving AA her info got some things mixed up, such as the finger incident which was Maria and not Anastasia. Anna V. had a terrible limp after her 1915 train accident, and with or without the use of a crutch, 'trailed one foot.' This is the kind of thing that caught AA in mistakes, though they are usually written off to her 'bad memory' due to her 'trauma' from 'Ekaterinburg.'

Later, in 1927, when Dassel passed through Hesse on his travels, he was arrested for no reason. Somebody must have been very, very nervous about his identification of AA.

So again we get harsh unproven accusations against Ernie.

In Klier and Mingay's book, they tell a story that a notebook containing the info AA would need to answer Dassel's questions was locked up by Leuchtenberg in an attempt to prove she couldn't find them, but I always wondered if maybe she was tipped off.

And she was also the one that told the judges that AA had "ducked under the table to wipe her nose on the table cloth".

"A true lady of breeding" there

I'm afraid she stopped at nothing in order to discredit AA whom she was rather hostile towards.

Oh here we go again, anyone who didn't accept her false claim was 'out to discredit her' in your view. Did you ever consider she was 'hostile' toward her because she could tell she was a faker who was using her parents for free room and board and trying to use this to her advantage in the emigre' community? That would be a very frustrating thing to sit there and watch in your own house.

If he recognized her at Kleist's, why did he not come forward then? Why wait 5 years?

I don't think he 'recognized' her but was talking to her seeing if she was real or a fake since he didn't know the real AN that closely. Later, perhaps he was honestly fooled by the notebook, or perhaps he decided to join the charade camp for possible financial gain later.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

I have wondered if perhaps the person(s) giving AA her info got some things mixed up, such as the finger incident which was Maria and not Anastasia.

And what people would that be? As for the finger incident, it was witnessed by Shura and Captain Sablin from the Standart. Also Admiral Schilling's niece wrote a long letter to Frau Rathlef Keilmann telling her how she vividly remembered hearing about the accident of Anastasia's finger being crushed in a carriage door, and Chaplain Karl Berg also remembered hearing about it while staying in Tsarskoe Selo. As for Marie's "accident", what witnesses do you have?

Anna V. had a terrible limp after her 1915 train accident, and with or without the use of a crutch, 'trailed one foot.' This is the kind of thing that caught AA in mistakes, though they are usually written off to her 'bad memory' due to her 'trauma' from 'Ekaterinburg.'

I have never seen any mentioning of AV 'trailing one foot.' Sources, please.

So again we get harsh unproven accusations against Ernie.

Who mentioned Ernie?

In Klier and Mingay's book, they tell a story that a notebook containing the info AA would need to answer Dassel's questions was locked up by Leuchtenberg in an attempt to prove she couldn't find them, but I always wondered if maybe she was tipped off.

And that info is taken from Peter Kurth's book, where he writes that Captain Dassell wrote down everything he remembered from the hospital, sealed it in an envelope and gave it to the Duke of Leuchtenberg for safekeeping so that nobody could say afterwards that he changed his story in favor of AA. Or the opposite.

"A true lady of breeding" there

Once a liar.......

Oh here we go again, anyone who didn't accept her false claim was 'out to discredit her' in your view. Did you ever consider she was 'hostile' toward her because she could tell she was a faker who was using her parents for free room and board and trying to use this to her advantage in the emigre' community? That would be a very frustrating thing to sit there and watch in your own house.

And how would Gerda von Kleist know AA from Adam?

I don't think he 'recognized' her but was talking to her seeing if she was real or a fake since he didn't know the real AN that closely. Later, perhaps he was honestly fooled by the notebook, or perhaps he decided to join the charade camp for possible financial gain later.

Oh, you and your financial gains..... Dassell knew her well from the hospital and then being retained by the Tsarina as an adjutant to the girls. And how could he be 'fooled' by the notebook? It was HE who wrote down his memories.