Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

This does not prove anything. As for 'mistakes' she had a harder time with the cyrillic alphabet. Copying down words means nothing. I could do that, anyone could.

Copying words and study a language are two different things.

This is NOT TRUE! One of our posters here recently told you she could translate in several languages in writing, but couldn't speak some of them. A lot of people can write, or even read, a language they can't understand.

If you can read and write a language, you can also speak it, however poorly. It's called pronunciation.

Politicians always read things in another language, and sometimes rock stars read greetings in the language of the country they're playing in to be friendly to the crowd, but none of this proves proficiency.

Reading a readied statement is not what we are discussing here.

Before I was born, my parents had a German maid who my mother always said could read the most perfect English to my brother and sister from Little Golden books, but was barely functional in conversation and usually had to use her hands to get her point across. Nope, writing words down is NOT proof of ability.

And as we know, AA was barely functional in conversation in German. As la Buxhoeveden said: She did not know much German and spoke with a strong Russian accent.

That doesn't make him a liar! Getting something accidently wrong or making a mistake is not the same thing as a lie.

Accidentally wrong? After 13 years at the court? And when AA makes a slight mistake in describing the room, she is discredited on the spot. Talk about double standards.

Really, if he'd known about the room, he never would have said there wasn't one, because he knew he could be proven wrong!

This is not the only thing. When I find the sources, I will also tell you about the blue regiment and the samovar at Mogilev.

(as for the people, I have seen it written many times but do not have the source available, I'll dig when I have time)

Oh, spare yourself the trouble. AA said the room had window sills of Malachite, and they are marble. At least after the restauration. The Catherine Hall is another thing, I do not know what kind of window sills it has. Boris?

Maybe they sent for Olga to see what SHE thought, because she knew her better, and they weren't sure.

Why would that be necessary? Gilliard said later that he and his wife found no likeness.

None of this proves he is a liar. This is only your personal view.

My personal view? Grand Duke Andrew called Gilliard "the lickspittle of the Grand Duke of Hesse". Gleb Botkin said that "to repeat all of Gilliard's lies a new book would be necessesary". Harriet von Rathlef Keilmann called him " a rat!" Herluf Zahle said that "Gilliard's recollections of what happened in Berlin are quite different from mine."

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Then WHY did Manahan fear she was going to be put in a mental institution? We have a direct quote from the arresting sheriff that he said it.

As we have seen, Mr. Manahan feared quite a few things. But whether he feared it or not, the doctors verdict was that AA was mentally sane. And that is what we are discussing here.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Copying words and study a language are two different things.

But sometimes this is really all it amounts to, as no skills are gained or remembered.

If you can read and write a language, you can also speak it, however poorly. It's called pronunciation.

That doesn't mean you know what you're saying. Anyone can read from a piece of paper. The skills and proficiency of each individual varies greatly and you cannot make this blanket statement.

Reading a readied statement is not what we are discussing here.

As long as you pronounce it, isn't that what you said?

And as we know, AA was barely functional in conversation in German.

No, we don't know this at all, since it was clearly her language of choice over Russian, English and French, the ones AN knew much better.

As la Buxhoeveden said: She did not know much German and spoke with a strong Russian accent.

So now all of a sudden ol' Bux isn't a traitor and a liar anymore? It's almost funny the way you use her and Gilliard to try to suit your own purposes while trashing them all the rest of the time. So are they only lying when they say something you don't want to hear?

Accidentally wrong? After 13 years at the court? And when AA makes a slight mistake in describing the room, she is discredited on the spot. Talk about double standards.

Clearly, AA was misinformed by whichever person fed her the info. Gilliard's denial, or lack of memory of the room does not prove he is a liar.

Oh, spare yourself the trouble. AA said the room had window sills of Malachite, and they are marble. At least after the restauration. The Catherine Hall is another thing, I do not know what kind of window sills it has. Boris?

It doesn't matter. AA was never in the palace, and somebody else told her.

[Anna was Franziska]

But whether he feared it or not, the doctors verdict was that AA was mentally sane. And that is what we are discussing here.

Where on earth did you get this? I see no such verdict. I see a court appointed attorney guardian saying her commitment would not happen IF Manahan found viable options, which means it was possible.

As we have seen, Mr. Manahan feared quite a few things.

What do you mean, he feared quite a few things? Are you trying to say he was the paranoid and crazy one and not her? It was BOTH of them!

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Doesn't prove a thing.

Yes, it proves that AA had a very, very short time to acquire severe Hallux Valgus.

As I have said many, many times, you have to consider what a shame on the family an illegitimate pregnancy was in those days. People would go to such great lenghts to hide them they'd send girls away and sometimes mothers or even grandmothers would claim the 'bastard.' It all seems silly now that even wealthy career woman voluntarily have babies out of wedlock, but we're talking about the 20's here, not 2008. Take it in that context.

And still you wanted AA to go to the Queen of Romania in that condition?
And you don't think the Wingenders would have known?

Oh give me a break, who would believe this? Why would anyone keep a lying fraud in high style at a castle? Even to this day, the family fears being held responsible. As someone once said "I don't believe in never."

In high style? Barely, the Leuchtenbergs had no money and lived hand to mouth. AA wore threadbare clothing and lived in a castle that didn't even have a bathroom.

What happened was, (and Dmitri L. thinks so too, he could tell they recognized each other)

And how would he know? As Felix said later to Völler: You could clearly see she had no idea of who I was.

he did say it when he first saw her, but when they talked alone out of earshot (as Dmitri L. said) he changed his tune.

No, they did not talk out of earshot. It started raining, and Felix and Völler ran into a nearby bakery. There the rest of the story took place, out of the earshot of Dmitri Leuchtenberg and AA.

Perhaps she begged him not to expose her and ruin everything for her, or perhaps he realized on his own what trouble it would be for her and possibly the family if she were caught, and it was better to leave her to her 'career' as "Anastasia."

Lovely thoughts, but as Felix said: Franziska would never had been in Berlin without writing me, we were very close.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Where on earth did you get this? I see no such verdict. I see a court appointed attorney guardian saying her commitment would not happen IF Manahan found viable options, which means it was possible.

From James Lovell's book: She was going to be transferred to the nearby University of Virginia Medical Center by the doctors after they found no evidence of mental illness.

What do you mean, he feared quite a few things? Are you trying to say he was the paranoid and crazy one and not her? It was BOTH of them!

None of them were crazy. That's your words.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Yes, it proves that AA had a very, very short time to acquire severe Hallux Valgus.

Six years?

And still you wanted AA to go to the Queen of Romania in that condition?

Sigh, we've been through this before, too. As Olga A. said, Queen Marie was the ONE person in the family liberal enough not to be shocked or judgemental of it, however, Irene Hesse was one of the most prudish, making it silly a real AN would have hidden from Marie to seek out Irene. But of course, AA wasn't AN, and likely never heard of either of them when she first invented her story, until she studied more.

And you don't think the Wingenders would have known?

Not necessarily. The family may not have known, either. The pregnancy could have happened any time from 1914 to 1919. Anything could have happened to that baby, it may have even been miscarried or aborted- any pregnancy of four-five months or more will leave the same scar on the uterus as a full term baby to be found during an exam as proof of prior pregnancy (I told you about how the doctor told my Grandma she'd had five kids but she only had four, she lost one at five months falling down the stairs) Her guilt over whatever happened to the baby may have contributed to her depression when she jumped. FS herself would be such an interesting story to discuss if we could only get rid of the 'maybe she was AN' spectre. We know now she wasn't, so let's try to figure out what really did happen to poor FS.

In high style? Barely, the Leuchtenbergs had no money and lived hand to mouth. AA wore threadbare clothing and lived in a castle that didn't even have a bathroom.

In whatever style, why would anyone keep a lying fraud around for free? Of course he was suspicious, I would be too!

And how would he know? As Felix said later to Völler: You could clearly see she had no idea of who I was.

Dmitri could see the look of recognition on both faces.

No, they did not talk out of earshot. It started raining, and Felix and Völler ran into a nearby bakery. There the rest of the story took place, out of the earshot of Dmitri Leuchtenberg and AA.

Well, Dmitri L. was there, and you and I weren't.

Lovely thoughts, but as Felix said: Franziska would never had been in Berlin without writing me, we were very close.

Yet we don't know if this is true. They could even have been estranged, and this could be another factor in her wanting to die. We could even theorize that she sent him the card (if there even really was a card) to guilt trip him when he found out she was dead. Again, the possibilities of the REAL FS would be most interesting to discuss, and much less redundant than reciting the AA quotes over and over again. Could I please start a 'how FS did it' thread and have you not turn it into another AA thread as you have done on all other forums, please?

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

But sometimes this is really all it amounts to, as no skills are gained or remembered.

And as we know, AA's German skills were pretty bad. FS, on the other hand, spoke German like a native.

That doesn't mean you know what you're saying. Anyone can read from a piece of paper. The skills and proficiency of each individual varies greatly and you cannot make this blanket statement.

I don't remember AA reading from a piece of paper.............

As long as you pronounce it, isn't that what you said?

Pronunciation is something you learn when you have a teacher help you. Learning a language by self-study may teach you how to write and read, but you have nobody to teach you how to pronounce the words. Anastasia had a teacher, so she clearly knew how to pronounce the words.

So now all of a sudden ol' Bux isn't a traitor and a liar anymore?

As I asked someone before: Find my post where I call Buxhoeveden a liar! (He could not, and graciously admitted it.)

It's almost funny the way you use her and Gilliard to try to suit your own purposes while trashing them all the rest of the time. So are they only lying when they say something you don't want to hear?

Again, THEY are misapplied her. I have never called Buxhoeveden a liar.

Clearly, AA was misinformed by whichever person fed her the info. Gilliard's denial, or lack of memory of the room does not prove he is a liar.

Aha, so AA was fed information, and Gilliard had a memory lapse. You certainly know how to use excuses, don't you. Now I would REALLY like to know who knew the palace better than Gilliard after his 13 years there, and then told AA.

[quoteIt doesn't matter. AA was never in the palace, and somebody else told her.[/quote]

Maybe you can also explain why she recognized all those rooms that Faith Lavington showed her on photos from The New York Times?

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

And as we know, AA's German skills were pretty bad. FS, on the other hand, spoke German like a native.

All we have is word of mouth and the details are all different. AA clearly chose German as her main language, something FS would have done but not AN.

I don't remember AA reading from a piece of paper.............

I'm saying, reading from a piece of paper, or writing words down, does not prove proficiency,

Pronunciation is something you learn when you have a teacher help you. Learning a language by self-study may teach you how to write and read, but you have nobody to teach you how to pronounce the words. Anastasia had a teacher, so she clearly knew how to pronounce the words.

FS knew how to pronounce German words.

As I asked someone before: Find my post where I call Buxhoeveden a liar! (He could not, and graciously admitted it.)

So, you believe her when she said that AA was not AN? You believe her books, that she wasn't a traitor, but was let go because of her name? You have no issues with anything Bux ever said, hmmm? You may not openly call her a liar, yet you constantly try to disprove almost everything she's said.

Aha, so AA was fed information, and Gilliard had a memory lapse. You certainly know how to use excuses, don't you. Now I would REALLY like to know who knew the palace better than Gilliard after his 13 years there, and then told AA.

Well we all have our explainations. But in the end, the DNA tells us who was right and wrong.

Maybe you can also explain why she recognized all those rooms that Faith Lavington showed her on photos from The New York Times?

I'm not impressed at all. She could easily have seen them with their labels first and studied them, or somebody could have told her, the possibilities are very high in that area. In fact, that has to be it! Remember now, AA was proven not to be AN in DNA tests. All the bodies are found and accounted for, therefore AA WAS NOT AN and was never in the palace, which means she got her info elsewhere. Got it?

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

From James Lovell's book: She was going to be transferred to the nearby University of Virginia Medical Center by the doctors after they found no evidence of mental illness.

But don't you always call Lovell a liar, or at least an embellisher? I see nothing of the kind in the newspaper stories.

None of them were crazy. That's your words.

Read the Hook article again. It's not my invention.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Six years?

No, less than that. Gertrude stayed with her until 1918, I think. (I may be wrong on this one, better check it out.)

Sigh, we've been through this before, too. As Olga A. said, Queen Marie was the ONE person in the family liberal enough not to be shocked or judgemental of it, however, Irene Hesse was one of the most prudish, making it silly a real AN would have hidden from Marie to seek out Irene. But of course, AA wasn't AN, and likely never heard of either of them when she first invented her story, until she studied more.

Silly? After the whole tirade you just delivered about having a child out of wedlock? And imagine how someone of royal blood may have felt, having had a child with a commoner.

Not necessarily. The family may not have known, either. The pregnancy could have happened any time from 1914 to 1919.

Her medical exam from 1916 says nothing about a pregnancy.

Anything could have happened to that baby, it may have even been miscarried or aborted- any pregnancy of four-five months or more will leave the same scar on the uterus as a full term baby to be found during an exam as proof of prior pregnancy (I told you about how the doctor told my Grandma she'd had five kids but she only had four, she lost one at five months falling down the stairs) Her guilt over whatever happened to the baby may have contributed to her depression when she jumped. FS herself would be such an interesting story to discuss if we could only get rid of the 'maybe she was AN' spectre. We know now she wasn't, so let's try to figure out what really did happen to poor FS.

And you talk about speculation. Sheeesh....

In whatever style, why would anyone keep a lying fraud around for free? Of course he was suspicious, I would be too!

Well, the Duke of Leuchtenberg gave his word. And that is all we know.

Dmitri could see the look of recognition on both faces.

Oh yes, I am sure he could. He also said that Kostritski testified against AA. He is just sooo believable.

Well, Dmitri L. was there, and you and I weren't.

And so were Dr. Völler and Harriet von Rathlef Keilmann and the Duke of Leuchtenberg.

Yet we don't know if this is true. They could even have been estranged, and this could be another factor in her wanting to die.

Felix said nothing of the sort. Stop speculating and stick to the things we know.

We could even theorize that she sent him the card (if there even really was a card) to guilt trip him when he found out she was dead. Again, the possibilities of the REAL FS would be most interesting to discuss, and much less redundant than reciting the AA quotes over and over again. Could I please start a 'how FS did it' thread and have you not turn it into another AA thread as you have done on all other forums, please?

No, you can not start a "how FS did it" thread and speculate your way around. Save that for your own site.
The card was sent for Felix's birthday which was on February 17. It arrived between 8 and 14 days late, and FS excused her tardiness, she had a lot of work to do.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

[/b]

But don't you always call Lovell a liar, or at least an embellisher? I see nothing of the kind in the newspaper stories.

No, I am not calling Lovell a liar. You really have to stop these accusations!

Read the Hook article again. It's not my invention.

I see nothing there that says that she is going to a psychiatric ward anywhere.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

No, I am not calling Lovell a liar. You really have to stop these accusations!

Haven't you said before to believe Kurth's book instead since Lovell didn't always have accurate info (for whatever reason)

I see nothing there that says that she is going to a psychiatric ward anywhere.

Actually the story states that she was in one already, and that Jack feared she'd be taken to a mental institution. I have already posted the link and the text.

Again:

http://www.readthehook.com/stories/2...han-I.rtf.aspx

a Charlottesville judge appointed a legal guardian for her, and he had her admitted to the University's Blue Ridge Hospital psychiatric ward.

Jack said he abducted her because he was afraid she would be stuck in a mental institution.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

All we have is word of mouth and the details are all different. AA clearly chose German as her main language, something FS would have done but not AN.

Not word of mouth, but evidence from Felix. And you know nothing about what AN would have done, so stop speculating. FS would definitely have chosen German since it was the only language she spoke. And she spoke it well.

I'm saying, reading from a piece of paper, or writing words down, does not prove proficiency,

My sentiment exactly.

FS knew how to pronounce German words.

Of course she did, she was GERMAN!

So, you believe her when she said that AA was not AN?

I believe that she was of the opinion that AA was not AN.

You believe her books, that she wasn't a traitor, but was let go because of her name?

As for being a traitor, I have only read the testimony from Russian archives.

You have no issues with anything Bux ever said, hmmm? You may not openly call her a liar, yet you constantly try to disprove almost everything she's said.

No, I am only trying to disprove everything she said, I am only reporting what historians have found out about her. And it seems like she has "forgotten" to write about a few things.

Well we all have our explainations. But in the end, the DNA tells us who was right and wrong.

And if you are safe in your DNA belief, why are you trying so hard to fight all the other evidence?

I'm not impressed at all. She could easily have seen them with their labels first and studied them, or somebody could have told her, the possibilities are very high in that area. In fact, that has to be it!

And since these were the first uncensored photos from the Tsar's palaces, who could have shown them to her? Did she have a subscription to the New York Times?

Remember now, AA was proven not to be AN in DNA tests. All the bodies are found and accounted for, therefore AA WAS NOT AN and was never in the palace, which means she got her info elsewhere. Got it?

No, I haven't got it. Sorry. I still want to know who told her all these things.

[COUNTESS]

We don't know that AA was not a servant in the palace at some time. As we don't know who she is. You can also memorize photos. When I went to Russia I was able to identify many things I saw by sight, never having been there bfore. Given the right coaching you could identfy anything. If the New York Times had the photos, other had them, too.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Haven't you said before to believe Kurth's book instead since Lovell didn't always have accurate info (for whatever reason)

No, I have not really discussed Lovell's book very much. I find Kurth's book so much more researched and better written. The only reason I go into Lovell's book, is that he carries the story a bit longer.

Actually the story states that she was in one already, and that Jack feared she'd be taken to a mental institution. I have already posted the link and the text.

Again:

The Hook - COVER- Jack & Anna: Remembering the czar of Charlottesville eccentrics

a Charlottesville judge appointed a legal guardian for her, and he had her admitted to the University's Blue Ridge Hospital psychiatric ward.

Jack said he abducted her because he was afraid she would be stuck in a mental institution.

She was in the psychiatric ward for examination. And that's all.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

We don't know that AA was not a servant in the palace at some time. As we don't know who she is. You can also memorize photos. When I went to Russia I was able to identify many things I saw by sight, never having been there bfore. Given the right coaching you could identfy anything. If the New York Times had the photos, other had them, too.

No, these photos were taken by a photographer from the paper who had the greatest difficulties getting the pictures.
And we are talking about the Alexander Palace and the Livadia Palace here. (Actually, according to Faith Lavington, AA identified one photo as coming from the Winter Palace but was labeled as coming from Tsarskoe Selo. Further investigation proved AA right.)

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

Well, she wouldn't be much use as an impostor if she didn't have similar physical characteristics.

So true, so true. And she had them all, the height, the hair, the face, the eyes, the ears, the voice, the scars, the Hallux Valgus, the handwriting, the memories, the inside info. Boy, she was good!

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Haven't you said before to believe Kurth's book instead since Lovell didn't always have accurate info (for whatever reason)
.

No, that was me.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

So true, so true. And she had them all, the height, the hair, the face, the eyes, the ears, the voice, the scars, the Hallux Valgus, the handwriting, the memories, the inside info. Boy, she was good!

Yet when you really compare pictures that aren't blurred, shadowy or posed, their faces actually look nothing alike. I doubt the voice, too, since the languages and accents were so different, and that so few people had heard the real AN talk enough to be a judge of it. Also, the handwriting didn't look like hers, and there are pictures to prove it. The memories could have come from anyone who got away from Russia and there were half a million Russian emigres' in Berlin in 1920. So this really isn't nearly as special as you make it seem.

There were three main reasons why it succeeded so long when others didn't:

1. She had BACKING- the kids of the family doctor, niece and nephew of the head of the Russian emigre' community (Botkins), writers who championed her cause, and financial supporters. Others didn't have such connections.

2. Thanks to the writers, and the lawsuit, she became a media phenomenon people wanted to believe instead of just another claimant.

3. She claimed to know of secret bank accounts holding lots of money- others didn't have the lure of cash on their side. Grandanor corporation and her lawsuit (and don't anyone try to say it wasn't about money) drew supporters and hangers-on in hopes of a payoff if she won.

4. The fact that since the family was so private and reclusive, Anastasia never attended any schools with large numbers of students who could have known her well, and because of the war and revolution she never got her 'coming out' to society, VERY FEW people actually knew the real Anastasia well enough to be an honest judge of her. Add to this that there were four sisters of the same age range, and some people didn't really know enough to distinguish one from another. This is why it was easier to pass her off as a generic Grand Duchess than Anastasia herself. Look at some of the comments from some of those who 'accepted' her- 'she had the eyes of the Tsar'- 'she waved goodbye like my Empress' - 'she raised her hand to be kissed like a true lady of breeding'- NONE of this is unique to ANASTASIA herself. People wanted to believe, and maybe filled in some gaps with things that weren't really there.

So it was a combination of:

1. the lure of MONEY
2. MEDIA attention
3. Wishful thinking/nostalgia for the past/desire for SOMEONE to have survived
4. interest in a fascinating 'lost princess' story, WANTING to believe because it was more fun than reality
5. the lack of enough people who knew the actual Anastasia well enough to be an accurate judge of who was and wasn't her
6. those who accepted her refusing to ever admit they were wrong/had been fooled by a Polish peasant