Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Which equals a lot of questionable second and third hand alleged rumor comments that can't be verfied.

Sorry, these are not rumors, but words written down as they happened.

I told you, like with the dog, she was so beat up he wanted to make sure.

Well, if Gilliard and Olga had wanted to be so sure, why did they not come back for a second and third look before they made the decision to abandon her? (Olga: "We shall not abandon you. You are no longer alone. Longing to see you.")

She couldn't verify anything since she was FS.

What I am telling you, is that Gilliard corresponded with Harriet Rathlef Keilmann and verified things that AA had told Mrs. Keilmann. Of course, Mrs. Keilmann could not verify anything herself.

Need I name them? Olga A, Felix Y, etc.

Olga to Anatole Mordvinov in a letter: "Curiously enough, she seems to understand Russian, but prefers to answer in German."
Felix talked to her in the four usual languages, and she answered him in German.
Try again.

AA used German over the languages AA knew much better, while AA used the language FS knew best. Suspicous, huh?

Yes, I am very suspicious, because FS was a German citizen and spoke good German, while AA spoke a "terrible muddled German with a heavy Russian accent."

And it was they who instigated the case. Look, no one is ignorant, and even blind people can see that the lawsuit was over MONEY!!!

The lawsuit was over recognition. If she had been legally recognized as Anastasia, there MIGHT have been some money due her, but nobody could find any proof of a hidden fortune.

If it weren't for the alleged fortune, no one would have given a hoot and you know it.

No, actually, I do not.

So don't pretend no one was after money, it's not realistic. And don't bother to say she only wanted her 'name' because it was the 'name' that was allegedly = to the money. It was all about the money, for everyone, no way around it.

Maybe you have some proof for this?

That was the will, no way of proving that money won during her lifetime could and would have been routed to him in some form!

And where do you find any proof of that except in your mind?

NO proof other than one person's word,

Actually, two persons. You forget Dr. Chemnitz.

and she couldn't even get the date right. She told the paper 1922 and you say they lied, I say she didn't even know because it never happened. I told you, I do NOT believe your nurse story and will not argue over it again!

She got the date right, there was no other possibility since in fall of 1922, AA was mainly staying with Clara Peuthert and nowhere near Dalldorf.

AA made NO claim to be anyone until Clara P. said she was Tatiana, then switched to AN when she was turned down for being too short. This has all been rehashed to death.

AA made the claim to nurse Malinovsky in 1921 according to testimony from Thea Malinovski and Dr. Chemnitz in Hamburg.

Let's just say, I don't believe this at all. And the book "Last Days of the Romanovs" was out in 1920 and told all about this. I've even posted you the direct quotes.

You may believe or not believe what you want. And when was "Last Days of the Romanovs" translated to German?

Of course she didn't want to do any interviews, she was afraid she'd slip up and say something that gave herself away.

So why was she not afraid of talking to Olga and Shura and Gilliard and Grand Duke Andrew and Xenia Leeds and the Botkins and others that could have exposed her very fast?

This is why she let her 'friends' do all the talking so they could censor and embellish as necessary.

She did not "let" anybody do the talking, she was happiest when they said nothing, even if it was in her defense. Just see how mad she was at Harriet Rathlef Keilmann when she published her book.

But, the real AN looked nothing like Marie F.

Maybe in your eyes.

Me, other posters, other books, history itself

Could you be a little more specific?

There is no way to prove if this is how it really happened. I don't think it was. Of course we'll never know, but your slant can't be taken as fact.

My slant? Read Gleb Botkin's book.

There was of course
B. Himmelstjerna, Im Angesicht der Revolution, 1922, publisher Steeler
and a Russian book, I do not have its name.

So AA can read Russian now?

And of course she read German, if she didn't she'd have been illiterate since it was the only useable language she had!

She did not read Fraktur!

AN wouldn't have been able to read German, but AA was FS, who could read German.

From her workbooks at school, we know that she was able to read and write German with fewer mistakes than Russian.

Anyway, any of the supporters could have had access to the book and told her about it, whether she read it or not. It was around in Germany just the time her claim came to light. Clara P. had a collection of reading material, who knows what all was under her bed!

Yes, I am sure that Clara Peuthert had a huge library.
The question about Ernie came up one day when Harriet Rathlef Keilmann asked AA if she had ever met Ernest von Hesse. AA said, yes, he was Mama's brother and called uncle Ernie.
- When did you last see him?
- During the war, at home with us in Russia.
Frau Rathlef then told AA that it would be impossible for Ernest to have been in Russia during the war, she had to be mistaken.
AA got angry and said: Yes, he was there. He came in secrecy to talk about a separate peace with Germany. He even told Mama: That is no longer Princess Sunshine.
When Amy Smith mentioned the incident to Count Hardenberg in Darmstadt (Ernie refused to meet with her), he "hit the ceiling". Frau Rathlef realized that AA had hit on a sore spot, and did not mention anything about it publicly. Not until an article from Darmstadt mentioned that The Entente Press had written about it, and that was where they assumed that AA had heard about it. Of course, they could not say what date and what publication it was mentioned in.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Of course it's contrary to his father's, because his father was obviously in on the scam, (or a complete fool) and he was, apparently, disgusted by the whole thing.

The Duke of Leuchtenberg was in fact the man who believed the FS story. That's why he told AA that an old friend was coming to see her when La Wingender did her famous "identification".

I believe Dmitri. Here, he even tells us when and where she learned her pathetic English!

Of course you believe Dmitri. In spite of his lie about Kostritsky.

When Mrs. Tschiakovsky arrived in Seeon she did not speak or understand Russian;

And how did he KNOW that she did not understand Russian?His own sister, Baroness Meller, was the one who applauded AA for "beginning to speak Russian again."

she did not speak or understand English, except for what she learned from lessons taken in Lugano and in Obersdorf before coming to Seeon;

And how come she read English books at Seeon, and the Duke said that she spoke, read and wrote English?

she did not speak or understand French.

Again, how did he KNOW that?

She spoke only German with a north German accent. Grand Duchess Anastasia, on the contrary, spoke always Russian to her father, English to her mother, understood and spoke French and did not speak any German.

A North German accent? I have never heard that one before. And how did Dmitri know about Anastasia not speaking any German, he never met her.

This explains why she didn't understand English when Olga A. spoke it to her, yet she knew some by the time she came to NY. While you will call this a 'lie' I call it valuable inside info from an eyewitness, and info that, if found before, has not been brought to light by those who would have you believe AA to be AN. This is important evidence of her being coached in languages.

And may we have the name of her English teacher? And her Russian teacher?
Thank you.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Sorry, these are not rumors, but words written down as they happened.

Written down, yes, fact, not proven.

Well, if Gilliard and Olga had wanted to be so sure, why did they not come back for a second and third look before they made the decision to abandon her? (Olga: "We shall not abandon you. You are no longer alone. Longing to see you.")

Perhaps her lack of Russian, English and French skills helped convince them. And I'm not getting into another Olga quote match, though I do have way more. Whatever she said when she wasn't sure stopped mattering when she realized it wasn't her. She even felt sorry for AA as a claimant who thought she was AN until that hateful letter from Gleb.

What I am telling you, is that Gilliard corresponded with Harriet Rathlef Keilmann and verified things that AA had told Mrs. Keilmann. Of course, Mrs. Keilmann could not verify anything herself.

So we'll never know who gave her the answers!

Olga to Anatole Mordvinov in a letter: "Curiously enough, she seems to understand Russian, but prefers to answer in German."
Felix talked to her in the four usual languages, and she answered him in German.
Try again.

No, they both stated clearly that she could only use German. Yes Felix used all four yet she only used German. Olga said "my nieces knew no German...German was never used in the family.."

Yes, I am very suspicious, because FS was a German citizen and spoke good German, while AA spoke a "terrible muddled German with a heavy Russian accent."

Russians of today, hearing the awful accent on NOVA, declared her accent Polish.

The lawsuit was over recognition. If she had been legally recognized as Anastasia, there MIGHT have been some money due her, but nobody could find any proof of a hidden fortune.

Recognition FOR MONEY! From the time she mentioned the alleged huge Brit bank account, everyone had their fingers in the pie. Sorry, NO ONE is naive enough to believe no one wanted money, and only wanted to help poor little AA. Had there not been the idea of money, her story would have died in the gutter.

She got the date right, there was no other possibility since in fall of 1922, AA was mainly staying with Clara Peuthert and nowhere near Dalldorf.

I knew this was coming. Sigh. So she forgot what dates she worked there, people do that! Then after she said 1922 someone told her she'd better correct it to predate the Clara declaration, and she blamed it on the newspaper making the 'mistake.' Come on, I wasn't born yesterday.

AA made the claim to nurse Malinovsky in 1921 according to testimony from Thea Malinovski and Dr. Chemnitz in Hamburg.

Yeah, yeah, so what. It never happened.

You may believe or not believe what you want. And when was "Last Days of the Romanovs" translated to German?

Doesn't matter, because the emigres' who came to see her knew English and French too. Loads of people came to see her, we'll never know who told her what and when, but it all came from somewhere else since AA was FS.

So why was she not afraid of talking to Olga and Shura and Gilliard and Grand Duke Andrew and Xenia Leeds and the Botkins and others that could have exposed her very fast?

Some she thought she could trick, the others, she avoided. She did a lot of face hiding and going under sheets. She was afraid. One of Xenia's grandsons said "my father was raised with the real AN. AA would never see him."

She did not "let" anybody do the talking, she was happiest when they said nothing, even if it was in her defense. Just see how mad she was at Harriet Rathlef Keilmann when she published her book.

She was probably worried that the farther it went, the more likely she was to get caught and be in trouble for fraud. It's very telling that she never wanted to speak for herself. She was afraid of goofing.

My slant? Read Gleb Botkin's book.

Okay, HIS slant. And a very fictional one

So AA can read Russian now?

NO! Like I said before, most of her supporters were educated with several languages and could tell her.

She did not read Fraktur!

FS/AA read it, not AN.

From her workbooks at school, we know that she was able to read and write German with fewer mistakes than Russian.

You can say this a thousand times, (though we've never seen any proof those books even exist) yet you completely ignore the repeated eyewitness accounts of those who knew her who say AN SPOKE NO GERMAN! And no, lessons do not necessarily mean a thing, I know many, many people who took several years of a language and now can't speak a word.

Yes, I am sure that Clara Peuthert had a huge library.

We don't know, do we? But most likely it was one of the emigres', or Rathlef.

The question about Ernie came up one day when Harriet Rathlef Keilmann asked AA if she had ever met Ernest von Hesse.

The story is well known, but it still means nothing, considering the rumor was already going around, and there's no proof the trip happpened. It's YOUR slant on the story that Ernie set out to destroy a real AN over this. The reason he was against her was because a stupid faker was pretending to be his dead niece and trying to get money from it. How would you feel, if you had a murdered niece and that happened?

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Of course you believe Dmitri. In spite of his lie about Kostritsky.

How do you know it's a lie? Perhaps he did send something in writing, and it was ditched due to its negativity toward her case.

did he KNOW that she did not understand Russian?His own sister, Baroness Meller, was the one who applauded AA for "beginning to speak Russian again." ..d how come she read English books at Seeon, and the Duke said that she spoke, read and wrote English?
Again, how did he KNOW that?

It's easy to tell a person doesn't know a language. You are trying to maintain reasonable doubt, however, there is no proof at all AA knew any English before Seeon, and any French at all.

German accent? I have never heard that one before. And how did Dmitri know about Anastasia not speaking any German, he never met her.

Well now you have. Perhaps he talked to many who did.

And may we have the name of her English teacher? And her Russian teacher?
Thank you.

I guess it's not enough for you that we have proof she took lessons!

May I see the proof she knew English before Seeon? There is none. Look, this is really a stupid game. It's very clear that AA was not AN, and did not know the languages AN knew. Even in her old age her English stank and she used no French or Russian. Because all the bodies have now been found, not even the intestine switch theory is a factor anymore. AA was not AN, and never will be.

Unless you can prove all the tests were fake, including the 2007 bones, in all three countries' labs? I'm waiting!

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Written down, yes, fact, not proven.

We have 4 witnesses here, and you refuse to believe them because it does not jive with your own view. But you cling to Dmitri Leuchenberg's words even after he has been proven to tell a lie. This tells a lot about you.

Perhaps her lack of Russian, English and French skills helped convince them. And I'm not getting into another Olga quote match, though I do have way more. Whatever she said when she wasn't sure stopped mattering when she realized it wasn't her. She even felt sorry for AA as a claimant who thought she was AN until that hateful letter from Gleb.

Please do get into a quote match, but make sure that Olga, not Ian Vorres is the one you are quoting.
That "hateful" letter from Gleb was in response to the "hateful" Copenhagen Statement, signed by 12 people, of whom only Olga had seen AA.

So we'll never know who gave her the answers!

What answers? She would tell Frau Rahtlef Keilmann details from the IF life in Russia, and she in turn wrote to Gilliard to verify the accuracies of AA's stories. And he would verify or correct the statements until the end of January 1926 when he suddenly switched sides and started calling himself "The Representative of the House of Hesse."


[/quote]No, they both stated clearly that she could only use German. Yes Felix used all four yet she only used German. Olga said "my nieces knew no German...German was never used in the family.."[/quote]

Yes, she used German, but UNDERSTOOD Russian and English. Got it?

Russians of today, hearing the awful accent on NOVA, declared her accent Polish.

And others declared her accent as coming from St. Petersburg.

Recognition FOR MONEY! From the time she mentioned the alleged huge Brit bank account, everyone had their fingers in the pie. Sorry, NO ONE is naive enough to believe no one wanted money, and only wanted to help poor little AA. Had there not been the idea of money, her story would have died in the gutter.

It would, wouldn't it. She mentioned the bank account in 1925, but no lawsuit was filed until 1927. And at first AA did not want any suit to be filed, all she wanted, was that the putative fortune in England would be tied up so that her aunts could not get to it. Botkin managed to do this with the help of Edward Fallows. Grand Duchess Xenia went to the Bank of England on July 18, 1928, ten years after the murder of the IF, and she was allegedly told that no information was available until the case of identification was cleared up. She yelled at Xenia Leeds who in turn yelled at Botkin. So if you want to find out who was after the money, you can start with Grand Duchess Xenia. When AA heard that her aunt had filed lawsuits in Europe in an attempt to find the Tsar's fortune, she gave the assent to Fallows to file suit for her recognition as well.

I knew this was coming. Sigh. So she forgot what dates she worked there, people do that! Then after she said 1922 someone told her she'd better correct it to predate the Clara declaration, and she blamed it on the newspaper making the 'mistake.' Come on, I wasn't born yesterday.

I don't think you are able to understand a very simple fact: AA left Dalldorf in May of 1922, so it is impossible that she could have told nurse Malinovski ANYthing in fall of 1922. Besides, the protocols at Dalldorf confirmed the dates of nurse Malinovski's hiring.

Doesn't matter, because the emigres' who came to see her knew English and French too. Loads of people came to see her, we'll never know who told her what and when, but it all came from somewhere else since AA was FS.

I guess the whole world traipsed through the livingroom at the Kleist's from May till August, 1922. And AA had the most fantastic memory and hung on to every word.

Some she thought she could trick, the others, she avoided. She did a lot of face hiding and going under sheets. She was afraid. One of Xenia's grandsons said "my father was raised with the real AN. AA would never see him."

So, she tricked them, huh? She must have been very good at that.
As for the hiding and going under sheets, the only one she did that with, was Isa Buxhoeveden, whom she suspected of betrayal.
As for Xenia's sons, there was never a question of her refusing to see them. They never asked. Being the offspring of her opposition, AA asked Xenia Leeds not to invite them to the estate when she was there. One morning, Xenia had one of them over for tennis, thinking that AA would never know. But AA was furious, she heard the voice and recognized "one of the cousins."
Alexander's grandson saw her, though, and she immediately identified him as a "descendant of Grand Duke Alexander. I recognize him on his ocean-like walk." She reminded him of Xenia and Irina Yussupov.

She was probably worried that the farther it went, the more likely she was to get caught and be in trouble for fraud. It's very telling that she never wanted to speak for herself. She was afraid of goofing.

Oh, she was, was she. I can only quote Lili Dehn here: "She never made a mistake."

Okay, HIS slant. And a very fictional one

Yes, you would know, of course.

FS/AA read it, not AN.

In a signed report on her general condition, Dr. Theodore Eitel stated that AA could not read Fraktur.

You can say this a thousand times, (though we've never seen any proof those books even exist)

So you think the judges at the Hamburg court dealt with information that was not there?

yet you completely ignore the repeated eyewitness accounts of those who knew her who say AN SPOKE NO GERMAN!

And I spoke no German at home, and still speak no German at home. And still I am fairly fluent.

The story is well known, but it still means nothing, considering the rumor was already going around, and there's no proof the trip happpened.

Lots of witnesses, but the court did not accept it as true.

It's YOUR slant on the story that Ernie set out to destroy a real AN over this. The reason he was against her was because a stupid faker was pretending to be his dead niece and trying to get money from it. How would you feel, if you had a murdered niece and that happened?

MY slant? How about Botkin, Rathlef Keilmann, Grand Duke Andrew etc.
And why did he then wait until AA spilled the beans about his alleged trip? And why did he not go after the other claimants?

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

How do you know it's a lie? Perhaps he did send something in writing, and it was ditched due to its negativity toward her case.

Nice try. Kostritski never testified against AA. How could he, he did not bring his dental charts from Russia.

You are trying to maintain reasonable doubt, however, there is no proof at all AA knew any English before Seeon, and any French at all.

See interview with Bella Cohen. See Harriet Rathlef Keilmann, page 233. See statement from Professor Rudnev.

Well now you have. Perhaps he talked to many who did.

Aha, hearsay.

I guess it's not enough for you that we have proof she took lessons!

Yes, mother Goose rhymes with Faith Lavington!

May I see the proof she knew English before Seeon?

See above.

Unless you can prove all the tests were fake, including the 2007 bones, in all three countries' labs? I'm waiting!

I think we all are.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Nice try. Kostritski never testified against AA. How could he, he did not bring his dental charts from Russia.

I never said in court, but he did say it!

See interview with Bella Cohen. See Harriet Rathlef Keilmann, page 233. See statement from Professor Rudnev.

So once again, it all comes down to whom you choose to believe. However, now that DNA has proven AA a fake, we know who was telling the truth and who was right and wrong.

Yes, mother Goose rhymes with Faith Lavington!

A lot of people use such things to learn a language, today it's TV shows.

See above.

That's not proof!

I think we all are.

Only those who refuse to accept reality. I accept it, I want to know your reasons for denying it (other than just your desire for AA to be AN)

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

We have 4 witnesses here, and you refuse to believe them because it does not jive with your own view. But you cling to Dmitri Leuchenberg's words even after he has been proven to tell a lie. This tells a lot about you.

He did not tell a lie, you took it to mean court instead of just reporting it. He was a valuable insider, because other insiders were too blinded by hope, or greed, to see that she was nothing like AN, and all the holes in the story, but he did. I bet there's a lot more out there, but it's never been brought to light because most of those who write about AA don't like negative things to be seen, so they don't use it, just as any lawyer isn't going to use things that hurt his case.

That "hateful" letter from Gleb was in response to the "hateful" Copenhagen Statement, signed by 12 people, of whom only Olga had seen AA.

There was no excuse for its cruelty and rudeness and false accusations.

What answers? She would tell Frau Rahtlef Keilmann details from the IF life in Russia, and she in turn wrote to Gilliard to verify the accuracies of AA's stories.

Don't you see how weak and loose this is? They could have gotten the stuff from anyone, and even done research in all the books available at the time.

And he would verify or correct the statements until the end of January 1926 when he suddenly switched sides and started calling himself "The Representative of the House of Hesse."

He may have felt like a fool for ever being duped, and wanted to make up for it by clearing the name of the real, dead, AN.


[/quote]
Yes, she used German, but UNDERSTOOD Russian and English. Got it? [/quote]

No, because AN USED Russian and English, and understood very little German.

And others declared her accent as coming from St. Petersburg.

"Others" must be trying to help her cause. Anyone from St. P would laugh and be disgusted anyone couldn't tell the difference. Go ahead, play her tape for anyone in or from Russia!

It would, wouldn't it. She mentioned the bank account in 1925, but no lawsuit was filed until 1927.

I guess she thought she may be able to hoodwink Olga and when she found out it didn't work she and her supporters had to go for the throat the hard way.

And at first AA did not want any suit to be filed, all she wanted, was that the putative fortune in England would be tied up so that her aunts could not get to it. Botkin managed to do this with the help of Edward Fallows. Grand Duchess Xenia went to the Bank of England on July 18, 1928, ten years after the murder of the IF, and she was allegedly told that no information was available until the case of identification was cleared up. She yelled at Xenia Leeds who in turn yelled at Botkin. So if you want to find out who was after the money, you can start with Grand Duchess Xenia. When AA heard that her aunt had filed lawsuits in Europe in an attempt to find the Tsar's fortune, she gave the assent to Fallows to file suit for her recognition as well.

My gosh, how rude! No wonder they fought her so long! She was a crazy faker and didn't deserve any money. I'd have fought her too if it were my dead niece.

I don't think you are able to understand a very simple fact: AA left Dalldorf in May of 1922, so it is impossible that she could have told nurse Malinovski ANYthing in fall of 1922. Besides, the protocols at Dalldorf confirmed the dates of nurse Malinovski's hiring.

I already told you: people get dates wrong, and don't keep up with when stuff happened. I have a good memory for such things, but most don't. People call me up and ask me what month/year something happened, most don't remember. It's clear to see what happened, she got it wrong, one of the other AA backers told her she'd better try to fix it so she blamed it on the paper. Very, very weak link here.

I guess the whole world traipsed through the livingroom at the Kleist's from May till August, 1922. And AA had the most fantastic memory and hung on to every word.

I guess her 'fantasic memory' wasn't good enough to recall the real life of AN, only a few relayed details she often got wrong.

So, she tricked them, huh? She must have been very good at that.
As for the hiding and going under sheets, the only one she did that with, was Isa Buxhoeveden, whom she suspected of betrayal.

PLEASE! This excuse has worn more than thin. She was terrified of her, because she knew Bux knew AN well enough to expose her. Once she did, AA had to try to destroy her rep to discredit her. She was a nasty person that way.

Sigh. I'm not even going to bother to answer the rest. It's just a bunch of he said this, she said that, and of course supporters are going to say more favorable things. People on the other side said otherwise, but you call them liars. The only thing solid is the DNA and you reject that too. It's plain as day you just WANT to believe, but it's useless now.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

He did not tell a lie,

Yes, he did. Kostritsky NEVER testified against AA. All he said was: Would I have left the Grand Duchess' teeth in that condition. And that was the end of it.

you took it to mean court instead of just reporting it. He was a valuable insider, because other insiders were too blinded by hope, or greed, to see that she was nothing like AN, and all the holes in the story, but he did. I bet there's a lot more out there, but it's never been brought to light because most of those who write about AA don't like negative things to be seen, so they don't use it, just as any lawyer isn't going to use things that hurt his case.

And you are ranting on, as usual.

There was no excuse for its cruelty and rudeness and false accusations.

Oh yes, there was plenty of excuse. If the Copenhagen Statement had gone unanswered, AA would have been expelled from the US as an impostor. The silence from the Romanovs after Gleb's attack indicated to the Immigration Service that AA may be genuine after all.

Don't you see how weak and loose this is? They could have gotten the stuff from anyone, and even done research in all the books available at the time.

Yes, I am sure AA picked out faces from photos and named them after heavy research in --- what books were those again?

He may have felt like a fool for ever being duped, and wanted to make up for it by clearing the name of the real, dead, AN.

Oh, is that so. And why then run around as "The Representative of the House of Hesse"? I think it is very clear whose bidding he did.

No, because AN USED Russian and English, and understood very little German.

Yes, AN used Russian and English, but you have no inkling of how much German she understood. AA clearly spoke English and Russian, but preferred to use the little German she knew.

"Others" must be trying to help her cause. Anyone from St. P would laugh and be disgusted anyone couldn't tell the difference. Go ahead, play her tape for anyone in or from Russia!

This has already been discussed, and everybody has their own opinions.

I guess she thought she may be able to hoodwink Olga and when she found out it didn't work she and her supporters had to go for the throat the hard way.

Go for the throat? I think there were others who went for the throat more than AA ever did.

My gosh, how rude! No wonder they fought her so long! She was a crazy faker and didn't deserve any money. I'd have fought her too if it were my dead niece.

How rude? You mean Xenia? As Xenia Leeds said to gleb regarding Olga and Xenia: "What they want to offer is this: if you allow them to inherit Anastasia's money and agree that she is not to be acknowledged formally, they will, in return, give Anastasia something out of that money and send her to some quiet retreat in Europe. You (Gleb) personally will also be taken care of."
Well, we all know how that ended.

I already told you: people get dates wrong, and don't keep up with when stuff happened. It's clear to see what happened, she got it wrong, one of the other AA backers told her she'd better try to fix it so she blamed it on the paper. Very, very weak link here.

I still don't think you understand the point here: AA was nowhere near Dalldorf in the fall of 1922 and could not possibly have told nurse Malinovsky anything. Do you understand that much?
As for the hiring date of Malinovsky, it is clearly written in the protocols at Dalldorf. You get nowhere with your accusations. The Nachtausgabe had their own agenda and wrote the date as fall of 1922, erroneously or wilfully. The manuscript was never restored to nurse Malinovsky, so she had no way to find out who made the error.

Same to you.

Not at all. I always explain my reasons.

I guess her 'fantasic memory' wasn't good enough to recall the real life of AN, only a few relayed details she often got wrong.

Only a few details? Obviously you have not read much about this case. She had a wealth of information, and she did not often get it wrong. You better be prepared to supply some back up here.

PLEASE! This excuse has worn more than thin. She was terrified of her, because she knew Bux knew AN well enough to expose her. Once she did, AA had to try to destroy her rep to discredit her. She was a nasty person that way.

And she knew that Olga, Volkov, Andrew, the Botkins etc. could expose her as well. The funny thing is, she did something of the sort when Rachmaninoff came to see her as well, and he never knew Anastasia. But she did not like him because he did not support Russia in its need, but was making it big in America while his countrymen starved. As for Buxhoeveden's betrayal, it is duly noted in the Russian archives. I have already posted it.

[/quote]Sigh. I'm not even going to bother to answer the rest. It's just a bunch of he said this, she said that, and of course supporters are going to say more favorable things.[/quote]

Funny how much you believe Dmitri when he says.....

People on the other side said otherwise, but you call them liars. The only thing solid is the DNA and you reject that too. It's plain as day you just WANT to believe, but it's useless now.

When people are caught lying, what are they?

[COUNTESS]

They are liars, but so was AA.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

They are liars, but so was AA.

If you read up on this, you will find that doctors, friends and some foes all said: She has the highest regard for truth, she never contradicted herself, and she never told a lie.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

I never said in court, but he did say it!

Then you rather be prepared to back this up with Kostritki's written statement! And you will not find any.

So once again, it all comes down to whom you choose to believe. However, now that DNA has proven AA a fake, we know who was telling the truth and who was right and wrong.

I chose to believe those who have not been caught in lies.

Only those who refuse to accept reality. I accept it, I want to know your reasons for denying it (other than just your desire for AA to be AN)

So why are you fighting so hard to convince me?

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Then you rather be prepared to back this up with Kostritki's written statement! And you will not find any.

If it's not still around, it's because no AA supporting writer ever chose to use it in one of their books. Maybe Berenberg-Gossler had it.

I chose to believe those who have not been caught in lies.

AA and all of her supporters were caught in the biggest lie of all once those DNA tests came in!

So why are you fighting so hard to convince me?

I'm not, I just can't let you mislead anyone who is just learning about the topic and coming here for knowledge. The truth needs to be told to counteract the fantasy. As long as you go on I must as well.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

If you read up on this, you will find that doctors, friends and some foes all said: She has the highest regard for truth, she never contradicted herself, and she never told a lie.

She LIVED a lie by presenting, and allowing herself to be presented, as someone she wasn't. Probably the reason she never came out and said "I AM ANASTASIA" is because she KNEW she wasn't and didn't want to be in trouble for fraud if she were ever officially exposed. Maybe she thought that, by technicality, she wasn't officially 'lying' if she never came out and said it, but she still let the game continue and played right along and never tried to deny it or stop it. She also wouldn't take the witness stand and have to worry about possible perjury. She was living a lie, and I believe she knew exactly what she was doing at least for the first 20 years. At some point, she probably crossed the line into total insanity and believed her own charade. After all, since as FS she was declared insane and as AA had many spells of mental instability, it's no suprise she finally went off the deep end.

[COUNTESS]

"She never told a lie" is ridiculous. Even the best of us, George Washington, included have told some little lies here and there. When you make draconion satatements such as these, it makes it less plausible. Never trust anyone who says the "Never", did this or that.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

She LIVED a lie by presenting, and allowing herself to be presented, as someone she wasn't. Probably the reason she never came out and said "I AM ANASTASIA" is because she KNEW she wasn't and didn't want to be in trouble for fraud if she were ever officially exposed.

You should know by now that she came out and said just that in the fall of 1921 to Thea Malinovsky. But she never wanted any publicity, even positive.

Maybe she thought that, by technicality, she wasn't officially 'lying' if she never came out and said it, but she still let the game continue and played right along and never tried to deny it or stop it. She also wouldn't take the witness stand and have to worry about possible perjury.

I think perjury was the least of her worries....

She was living a lie, and I believe she knew exactly what she was doing at least for the first 20 years.

Tell that to Botkin, and you know exactly what he would tell you!

At some point, she probably crossed the line into total insanity and believed her own charade. After all, since as FS she was declared insane and as AA had many spells of mental instability, it's no suprise she finally went off the deep end.

She never went off any end, no doctor ever declared her insane. Never. Not even in her last days.
Infuriating, isn't it.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

"She never told a lie" is ridiculous. Even the best of us, George Washington, included have told some little lies here and there. When you make draconion satatements such as these, it makes it less plausible. Never trust anyone who says the "Never", did this or that.

I am not really making a statement, I am simply reporting the words of those who were there when it happened. Here is a snippet from Dr. Theodore Eitel's report on the patient:

All the information which the patient furnished to me, or to those immediately round her, I have repeatedly verified during the course of the months, and I can assert that on no occasion did the patient make a contradictory statement. Her accounts and descriptions of her experiences are now invariably voluntary, deliberate and considered, and are given without acffectation or exaggeration.
It must, therefore, be presumed that the patieent did actually undergo the experiences she describes. It would be impossible for anyone so ill physically, but who presents no psychopathic features, to sustain a false role without once deviating therefrom.
In Mrs. Chaikovski one recognizes a personality of exceptionally high ethical qualities. Her high personal qualities, her noble nature, her pronounced truthfulness in small as well as in large matters, the distinguished detachment of her personality - all these features, which she displayed to everyone right from the outset, force one to the conclusion that Mrs. Chaikovski from her earliest childhood has been brought up in the highest circles.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

If it's not still around, it's because no AA supporting writer ever chose to use it in one of their books. Maybe Berenberg-Gossler had it.

Give it a rest. NOBODY has it.

AA and all of her supporters were caught in the biggest lie of all once those DNA tests came in!

And in spite of the DNA tests, whe still have no legal decision.

I'm not, I just can't let you mislead anyone who is just learning about the topic and coming here for knowledge. The truth needs to be told to counteract the fantasy. As long as you go on I must as well.

In other words, you feel that the rest of the world is not intelligent enough to study this case and make up their own opinion. What a noble cause.

[Anna was Franziska]

If they were really intelligent, they'd accept the dna results and understand that AA is not AN and that's the end of it, and be too intelligent to fall for conspiracy theories.

[Penny Royalty]

You guys can be so funny. You don't stop arguing and it's yet impressive. I admire your plight and fight because it really shows that the both of you have a head on your shoulders. The care, the dedication, the overwhelming respect and regard for each other's opinions to inform us and yourselves about the matters pertaining to such a phenomena, simply impresses and interests me as a reader. Keep the honor of the Russian Royals lit with your advocations and enjoy in presenting if only to each other what it is you see. I enjoy the debacle and is touching to see such revelry for us all to see. Keep on with your long strife. It is good to me. It is good to see.