Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

The books were purchased at an auction in London by Ian Lilburn, who was permitted to do so by AA's lawyer, Carl August Wollmann. I assume that the books now are in the German State archives as are the rest of the papers pertaining to the lawsuit.

[Anna was Franziska]

another claimant denied by Gilliard:

Story : Alexei Poutziado is the first pretender recorded. He appears in Omsk city in 1919 and was quickly unmasked by Pierre Gilliard, the former Alexei preceptor which evoque this story in his book "Le tragique Destin de Nicolas II et de sa famille" :
"General D- informed me that he wanted to show me a 'boy who claimed to be the Tsarevich'. I knew in fact that a rumour was spreading in Omsk that the Tsarevich was still alive. He was announced to be in a small town of Altai. I had been told that the inhabitants had greeted him with enthusiasm, the schoolchildren had made a collection on his behalf, and the governor of the station had offered him, on his knees, bread and salt.

In addition, Admiral Kolchak had received a telegram asking him to come to the assistance of the pretended Tsarevich (Shortly after my departure the bogus Tsarevich ultimately confessed the imposture). I had paid no attention to these stories.

Fearing that these circumstances might give rise to difficulties, the Admiral had had the "Pretender" brought to Omsk; and General D- had called for me, thinking that my evidence would settle the difficulty and put a stop to the legend that was beginning to grow up.

The door of the next room was opened a little, and I was able to observe, unknown to him, a boy, taller and stronger than the Tsarevich, who seemed to me fifteen or sixteen years old. His sailor's costume, the colour of his hair, and the way it was arranged were vaguely reminiscent of Aleksey Nicolaievich. There the resemblance ended.

I told General D- the result of my observations. The boy was introduced to me. I put several questions to him in French: he remained dumb. When a reply was insisted upon he said that he understood everything I had said but had his own reasons for only speaking Russian. I then addressed him in that language. This, too, brought no results. He said he had decided to answer no one but Admiral Kolchak himself. So our interview ended.

Chance had brought across my path the first of the countless pretenders who doubtless for many years to come will be a source of trouble and agitation among the ignorant and credulous masses of the Russian peasantry."

[ChatNoir]

Seems that Gilliard did not "unmask" AA with the same speed. Remember, he and Shura went to Berlin on the request of Olga in order to tell her if AA really was "the little one". "If she is, let me know, and I will come to Berlin and meet you". Apparently Gilliard let Olga know that the unknown woman in Berlin may have been Anastasia, because Olga did travel to Berlin when the patient was feeling a little better. And both she and Gilliard left Berlin "without being able to say that she was NOT the Grand Duchess." Only after being away from her for 3 months did they come to the conclusion that it was not Anastasia.

[Michael HR]

True but as you can see the debate goes on.

For me it is over and I accept the DNA evidence from both graves but it is intresting to see what others think of this.

Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna

The difference is though that one of those viewpoints is proven to be wrong now. It is no longer opinion when we have an answer to our questions. Those who do not accept the answers are free to do so but will always be wrong and do not deserve their position to be respected as any other.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Michael HR

Chat I will get back to you and your post but have been busy working on a case at work and not much free time.

I am still waiting........

[Michael HR]

Dear Chat,

I am sorry but I have been busy with more work projects than I know what to do with and apologize for the time it has taken me to repsond to your message. I must also admit in all honesty that this had slipped my mind and again apologize. I thank you for reminding me of this.

From memory you asked me to show where you had said that or called "Bux" a liar. This came out of a discussion relating to as I recall Gillard.

With regard to Bux it seems that I am mistaken. From memory the Baroness account of her flight from Russia does not mention when spoken to by the Soviets that she had betrayed the IF by informing that jewels were hidden on them in Ekaterinburg. Others have said that she did just that and by this action she had betrayed the IF.

Further, my understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that money was sent to rescue the family and that this money did not reach who it should have done or was used for its purpose. The suggestion was that the Baroness had taken the money for her own use and thus also betrayed the family.

Both accounts cannot be correct. Either she did inform on the jewels and keep the money or she did not.

At the time I posted the message I had read so many messages from various members that I had mixed up this topic with Gillard. I think you mentoned that it was proven in Court in Germany that he had lied and that was the basis for your saying this and that therefore he was.

In relation to the Baroness I had asumed that you mean that she had lied in her account, leaving out the jewels and the money, and was therefore also a liar by default.

I accept that you did not say she was a liar and it was my assumption that has clouded my understanding of this exchange.

Therefore I apologize without reservation in relation to this misunderstanding of your position by myself in relation to the Baroness. It was me assuming that you thoght she was a liar in relation to actually saying that she was.


I have taken up your suggestion and have purchaed the following books:-

Nicholas and Alexandra

The last Tsar

Fate of the Romonovs

Anastasia - at the court of Anna Anderson

The Russian Revolution

The file on the Tsar

Ekaterinburg

The fall of the Romonovs

Nicholas II

As it is some years since I have read up on this subject I will refresh my memory.

[ChatNoir]

Thank you, MichaelHR, you are a gentleman after all. And maybe I am not quite as nasty as you describe me on other forums.......
Please add to your list of books:
Anastasia by Harriet Rathlef Keilmann
Anastasia, the Woman who rose again by Gleb Botkin.
Lots of information to find in these two, although they are rather hard to come by. But they are the only two books that describe Anna Anderson's life in the twenties as it actually took place.

[Michael HR]

I will try and get them. So you understand my position I do not think that AA was AN due if only to the DNA. However, I do accept that anothers point of view is as valid as mine at the very least.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

And AA being found to be a person with whom she has nothing in common is still puzzling to me.

This is your biased view, others disagree. For example, many people who look at the photos feel she looks more like FS than AN. I really don't see that AA and AN had anything in common other than a foot problem, and other things were all subjective, and contradictory on both sides. She really really wasn't this identical twin you make her out to be. But no one's personal opinion can prove a thing.

From "Tsar": In 1994, at the very moment the DNA experts concluded that Mrs, Anderson was not the tsar's daughter, new forensic comparions of her face an ears with pictures of the young Anastasia, commissioned for a television documentary in England and following routine procedures of legal identification, reached exactly the opposite conclusion. The expereiment was later successfully repeated by specialists in the United States, and their conclusions, too, were delivered with "certainty" - Anna Anderson was Anastasia. The DNA tests have won the hour, and will probably stand as the final work on a case that has left everyone who came near it, for or against, with a sense of tragedy and persistent, nagging doubts.

What show was this? Please name it and give us exact words and quotes. If the show in question was NOVA's Anastasia special, the ear specialists said nothing 'with certainty', and the face expert, Geoffrey Oxlee, using modern computer techniques to fuse pictures of AA and FS declared them to be one in the same- NOT AA and AN, it was AA and FS. I can post some screen caps of Oxlee's tests showing AA's face a complete match to FS's.

Here is a link to the episode in question, unfortunately, there is no transcript available online at this time, but I've seen it and it I know what was in it, and it's available to buy if anyone wants to see for themselves.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/teacher..._anastasi.html

So it appears a vague claim of 'a television documentary in England' doesn't prove anything if you can't name the show and tell us the names of those involved in the testing. Is there another program other than NOVA that did testings? If so, please give us a link. I have heard nothing at all, and seen no evidence of these tests being repeated in the US, if you have a source, please show us.

[BorisRom]

Once again:
(http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...tml#post729861)
Anna Anderson and GD Anastasia: Cinderella’s glass slippers.

1. GD Anastasia had CONGENITAL “Hallux Valgus” (bunions).
The identity of the congenital deformity of GD Anastasia's feet, which was very pronounced, is not only visible in photographs of the young grand duchess, but was confirmed even by those close to ANR who did NOT believe in AA's identity (for instance, the tsar's
younger sister GD Olga Alexandrovna – and she well knew the imperial children since their birth). It *was* congenital, and it was not caused by anything else. The nurse-maid (of little Anastasia) Shura Tegleva confirmed Anastasia’s congenital bunions too.

2. Anna Anderson had CONGENITAL hallux valgus (bunions) too.
Except of this diagnosis of German doctors (in Dalldorf, 1920), the diagnosis "the congenital “Hallux Valgus" was put also by the Russian doctor Sergey Mihajlovich Rudnev in St.Maria's clinic in the summer of 1925 (AA was very hardly sick of a tubercular infection):
«On her right foot I have noticed strong deformation, OBVIOUSLY, CONGENITAL: the big finger bend to the right, forming a tumour». Hallux Valgus was on her both feet. (Peter Kurth's book [Anastasia. The riddle of Anna Anderson], in Russian, p.99). Doctor Rudnev has cured and has rescued her life in 1925. AA named him «my kind Russian professor who has rescued my life».

3. On July, 27, 1925 to Berlin the spouses Gillard have arrived. Once again: Shura Gillard-Tegleva was the nurse-maid of GD Anastasia in Russia. They have visited very much sick AA in clinic. Shura has asked to show the feet of the patient. The blanket has been cast cautiously away, Shura has exclaimed:
«With [Anastasia] it was the same as here: the right foot was worse than the left» (Peter Kurth."Anastasia. The riddle of Anna Anderson", in Russian, p.121)
***
Now, the statistics data of “Hallux Valgus” (bunions):
-- the "hallux valgus" (HV) has 0,95 % from number of the surveyed women;
-- the first degree of the HV has 89 % from them (= 0,85% from the surveyed women );
-- the third degree of the HV has 1,6 % from them (= 0,0152% from the surveyed women or 1: 6580 );
-- the statistics of a congenital case «hallux valgus» makes (in modern Russia) 8:142 000000, or, approximately, 1:17 750 000!
We can assume the statistics data of a congenital case «hallux valgus» in former Russia did not differ too strongly (let even in some times, 1: 10 000 000). Thus the case of “AA was not ANR” has the probability from 1:10 millions to 1:17 millions.
In addition:
The citation from article about congenital “hallux valgus” of AA (“Gone with the wind”, L-A newspaper "Panorama", February, 2007):
“As one of the orthopedists (advising me) has expressed: «It is easier to find two girls of one age with identical FINGER PRINTS, than with attributes CONGENITAL hallux valgus”
***
Thus, I think (I hope :), very rare congenital deformation of feet "hallux valgus" of AA and ANR puts a fat point in fierce disputes of supporters and opponents of Anna Anderson.

Boris

P.S. Of course, I can suppose many opponents (opponents of Anna Anderson) will keep their former opinion, but henceforth they should demonstratively deny down the stated above.
P.P.S. ... and they should deny Peter Kurth's book on former - the main thing!

Thus,
The scientific medical statistics in this case is in 3000 times of more reliability (authentic), than DNA-researches and much more preferable in sense of possibility of mistakes and falsification. Hence, thereof, the burden of an explanation of discrepancy of DNA-tests should lie down completely on the opponents of Anna Anderson. They should find a mistake or traces of falsification. Supporters of Anna Anderson can engage in more important affairs now: in particular, to find-out (investigation) of mess with remains of Imperial family in Russia.

[Michael HR]

I was reading borisRom post with regard to Anna Anderson as above and note that final paragraph.

While I am no expert I note the DNA results that have been published.

With the assistance of mtDNA via HRH Prince Philip my understanding is that it has been confirmed that Empress Alexandra and three daughters were found in the first mass grave outside Ekaterinburg. There was some argument on who the fourth daughter was and that at that time was missing. Russia stated Maria and America stated Anastasia.

We then move on to the discovery of the 2nd grave and again with the assistance of mtDNA we are informed that in this grave lay the remains of Alexis and the fourth daughter, ether Maria or Anastasia.

Therefore by DNA all four daughters have been accounted for and that sadly no one got out of the Ipatiev House alive that night.

Moving on, with the assistance of the mtDNA samples of Anna Anderson were sent for testing and the result showed that Anna Anderson could not be related to the maternal line of the Empress Alexandra as there was no mtDNA match. Further, tests confirmed that there was a mtDNA match with the member of the familly of Franziska Schanzkowskathat some had argued Anna Anderson had belonged to for many years.

Over the years that I have watched the Anna Anderson case, some 40 odd by now, I always kept an open mind on this topic as there was a great deal of information that stood her argument and suggested that she might had been Anastasia. However the DNA evidence we have now is compelling which is why I assume the Russian Government acepted the results and allowed the burial in St Petersburg of the first remains found. Had they had doubts I do not think they would have allowed this to take place.

I will of course continue to read and have recently purchased a number of books. Again I will look at evidence as presented but unless something comes forward to show that a mistake in results had taken place, what I cannot imagine, I would not I think change my mind. I am not concerned with the chain of custody as this does not change the end result of the myDNA done which clearly shows no mtDNA match and therefore no membershi of the Romonov family.

The story of Anna Anderson is very intresting but for me now for reasons that do not say she was but how she managed the sustain the argument for so long.

Michael HR

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by BorisRom

Once again:
(http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...tml#post729861)
Anna Anderson and GD Anastasia: Cinderella’s glass slippers.

1. GD Anastasia had CONGENITAL “Hallux Valgus” (bunions).
The identity of the congenital deformity of GD Anastasia's feet, which was very pronounced, is not only visible in photographs of the young grand duchess, but was confirmed even by those close to ANR who did NOT believe in AA's identity (for instance, the tsar's
younger sister GD Olga Alexandrovna – and she well knew the imperial children since their birth). It *was* congenital, and it was not caused by anything else. The nurse-maid (of little Anastasia) Shura Tegleva confirmed Anastasia’s congenital bunions too.

2. Anna Anderson had CONGENITAL hallux valgus (bunions) too.
Except of this diagnosis of German doctors (in Dalldorf, 1920), the diagnosis "the congenital “Hallux Valgus" was put also by the Russian doctor Sergey Mihajlovich Rudnev in St.Maria's clinic in the summer of 1925 (AA was very hardly sick of a tubercular infection):
«On her right foot I have noticed strong deformation, OBVIOUSLY, CONGENITAL: the big finger bend to the right, forming a tumour». Hallux Valgus was on her both feet. (Peter Kurth's book [Anastasia. The riddle of Anna Anderson], in Russian, p.99). Doctor Rudnev has cured and has rescued her life in 1925. AA named him «my kind Russian professor who has rescued my life».

3. On July, 27, 1925 to Berlin the spouses Gillard have arrived. Once again: Shura Gillard-Tegleva was the nurse-maid of GD Anastasia in Russia. They have visited very much sick AA in clinic. Shura has asked to show the feet of the patient. The blanket has been cast cautiously away, Shura has exclaimed:
«With [Anastasia] it was the same as here: the right foot was worse than the left» (Peter Kurth."Anastasia. The riddle of Anna Anderson", in Russian, p.121)
***
Now, the statistics data of “Hallux Valgus” (bunions):
-- the "hallux valgus" (HV) has 0,95 % from number of the surveyed women;
-- the first degree of the HV has 89 % from them (= 0,85% from the surveyed women );
-- the third degree of the HV has 1,6 % from them (= 0,0152% from the surveyed women or 1: 6580 );
-- the statistics of a congenital case «hallux valgus» makes (in modern Russia) 8:142 000000, or, approximately, 1:17 750 000!
We can assume the statistics data of a congenital case «hallux valgus» in former Russia did not differ too strongly (let even in some times, 1: 10 000 000). Thus the case of “AA was not ANR” has the probability from 1:10 millions to 1:17 millions.
In addition:
The citation from article about congenital “hallux valgus” of AA (“Gone with the wind”, L-A newspaper "Panorama", February, 2007):
“As one of the orthopedists (advising me) has expressed: «It is easier to find two girls of one age with identical FINGER PRINTS, than with attributes CONGENITAL hallux valgus”
***
Thus, I think (I hope :), very rare congenital deformation of feet "hallux valgus" of AA and ANR puts a fat point in fierce disputes of supporters and opponents of Anna Anderson.

Boris

P.S. Of course, I can suppose many opponents (opponents of Anna Anderson) will keep their former opinion, but henceforth they should demonstratively deny down the stated above.
P.P.S. ... and they should deny Peter Kurth's book on former - the main thing!

Thus,
The scientific medical statistics in this case is in 3000 times of more reliability (authentic), than DNA-researches and much more preferable in sense of possibility of mistakes and falsification. Hence, thereof, the burden of an explanation of discrepancy of DNA-tests should lie down completely on the opponents of Anna Anderson. They should find a mistake or traces of falsification. Supporters of Anna Anderson can engage in more important affairs now: in particular, to find-out (investigation) of mess with remains of Imperial family in Russia.

We don't know that Anna Anderson had congenital hallux valgus. We simply have the word of a doctor who treated her for TB that she must have done. That's hardly conclusive. We don't know whether the exact angle of the deformation was the same for both of them. We don't know a lot of things about this claim. We know a lot more about the DNA, which the Anderson apologists are simply brushing aside.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Michael HR

The story of Anna Anderson is very intresting but for me now for reasons that do not say she was but how she managed the sustain the argument for so long.
Michael HR

Maybe these were part of the reasons:

It is the Grand Duchess Anastaia Nikolaevna; I have recognized her. It is the same person whom I knew; only the lower part of the face, the mouth, is changed, otherwise nothing. I recognize her: I am not relying on arguments. I am ready to affirm it on oath. (Tatiana Botkin)

Anastasia recognised me as instantly as I had recognised her, and apparently understood at once that I had come as a friend - not an enemy. I watched her, incredulous and fascinated. Her smile, the sound of her voice, her every gesture flooded my mind with endless memories - deeply disturbing, yet also so dear and joyful. She was so obviously, so completely her own self - the adored little Princess of my childhood days, the bewitching Anastasia. It had been my intention to ask her different questions, and guide in a conversation that would permit me to decide whether she was Anastasia or an impostor. Now I no longer needed those questions. (Gleb Botkin)

My heart tells me she is Anastasia. (Olga Alexandrovna)

What has become of the Grand Duchess, she is a veritable ruin. I will do everything I can to help the Grand Duchess. (Pierre Gilliard)

I loved her so much. Why do I love this girl here so much? If you knew how I felt! Can you tell me why I love your patient so much? (Shura Gilliard)

I believe she is the Grand Duchess. (Alexei Volkov)

I affirm she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia. (Captain Felix Dassel)

To the best of my conscience I must acknowledge that Anastasia Tschaikovsky is no one other than my niece, Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaievna. I recognized her at once, and further observation only confirmed my first impression. There is for me no doubt: She is Anastasia. (Andrew Vladimirovitch)

I have recognized her, physically and intuitively, through signs which do not deceive... What can I say after having known her? I certainly cannot be mistaken about her identity. (Lili Dehn)

One of the most convincing elements of her personality was a completely unconscious acceptance of her identity. She was herself at all times and never gave the slightest impression of acting a part...I am firmly convinced that the claimant is, in fact, Grand Duchess Anastasia of Russia. (Xenia Leeds)

She isn't my sister. (Felix Schanzkowsky)

[Menarue]

Yawn........ You are quoting people who knew nothing about DNA, if they had known about it and had seen the results they would have been extremely sad but very grateful to know the truth. You, Chat, know about DNA and so there is no excuse for you to believe this sad silly myth any longer.

[Michael HR]

Thank you Chat. it was an intresting list.

Is there photos of the feet of Anna Anderson showing the condition she had that we can compare to AN's photo showing her condition?

[ChatNoir]

Go to peterkurth.com which has a photo of AN showing her right foot. The photo of the older AA's right foot is, I think, in James Lovell's book.

[Michael HR]

Thanks and will do

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by Menarue

Yawn........ You are quoting people who knew nothing about DNA, if they had known about it and had seen the results they would have been extremely sad but very grateful to know the truth. You, Chat, know about DNA and so there is no excuse for you to believe this sad silly myth any longer.

Yes, it is very sad how he has to drag out the same old lists again, even in a thread that is about DNA and not quotes. I could post other quotes proving most of the people on that list said otherwise, but I don't want to take the thread any further off topic. This is about DNA and how it holds up in a court of law. Foot conditions or alleged eyewitness testimony do not overrule DNA, as the Innocence project has proven.

[Menarue]

My grandmother had hallux valgus, she blamed it on the tight boots she had to wear as a young girl. Now I am wondering if she wasn´t related to the IF.....
I too, couldn´t care whether Anna Anderson and Franziska were the one and same person or not, what I do know is that all members of the IF have now been accounted for, unfortunately all brutally murdered and that is the sad truth.

[BorisRom]

Originally Posted by Menarue

My grandmother had hallux valgus, she blamed it on the tight boots she had to wear as a young girl. Now I am wondering if she wasn´t related to the IF.....

Menarue,
Has your grandmother had congenital HV? Has your grandmother had heavier form of HV on right foot?
And... has your grandmother had all other things (qualities) what Anna Anderson had?