Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[AGRBear]

I respect your opinion.

Now, please respect the fact that I haven't made up my mind AA was FS.

Thanks.

AGRBear

[lucien]

Originally Posted by AGRBear

If I only had the time!

AGRBear

Ah yes,AGRBear,nice to see you here too.Ofcourse it is clear that it is my personal opinion that any discussion on who was who and why not is of no interest to me as the world is full of those thinking they are what they most certainly are not nor ever will be.Respect?Yes,but not for milking for milkings sake,it has no value and is pointless to a fault.But again,that is my opinion,and I will air that if I so please.Thank you.

[lucien]

Originally Posted by Michael HR

What would be intresting would be a book that tried to explan how, why and with whom AA kept the worlds attention for so long. That would probably sell quite well.

I know some think that AA was AN but the world will only see and hear the DNA evidence which would suggest that she was not.

Chat I will get back to you and your post but have been busy working on a case at work and not much free time.

Why?Because people are people and easily believe anything but the truth and rather invent their own instead.
But hey,I'm sure there's one out there willing/smelling a fast buck and become an instant author.
I just wish they leave the entire Family alone and in peace.

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by lucien

Ah yes,AGRBear,nice to see you here too.Ofcourse it is clear that it is my personal opinion that any discussion on who was who and why not is of no interest to me as the world is full of those thinking they are what they most certainly are not nor ever will be.Respect?Yes,but not for milking for milkings sake,it has no value and is pointless to a fault.But again,that is my opinion,and I will air that if I so please.Thank you.

Who is "milking for milking sake"?

"pointless to a fault". I'm sure there are many things which interest you that I don't find interesting but I'd never say it was "pointless" just because I wasn't interested. I bet I'd bore you if I talked about my grandchildren. We all have different interests or else it would be a very dull world.

Respect. Yes, I expect respect just as you should expect it from me.

Enough about us. Let's get back to the subject.

AGRBear

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by lucien

Ah yes,AGRBear,nice to see you here too.Ofcourse it is clear that it is my personal opinion that any discussion on who was who and why not is of no interest to me as the world is full of those thinking they are what they most certainly are not nor ever will be.Respect?Yes,but not for milking for milkings sake,it has no value and is pointless to a fault.But again,that is my opinion,and I will air that if I so please.Thank you.

I haven't seen "milking for milking's sake". The posts are quite informative and have facts to back them up. There is more and more information that Chat and AGRBear dig up and it's fascinating. I am wondering if someone will start a thread about the "fascination" that is almost occult of the Romanovs. There are people out there who choose to put them on alters and worship them.
That, IMO, is wrong. They were, after all, only human. . . .

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter

Read the post again - his book is my source. In it he says that Anastasia didn't know German. Their schoolbooks prove they had studied it seriously.

This still doesn't prove she knew or could speak it! Studying does not = proficiency, in languages or anything else.

Speaking of these 'schoolbooks', where were they, who saw them, and where are they now?

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

This still doesn't prove she knew or could speak it! Studying does not = proficiency, in languages or anything else.

Nobody has claimed that AA was proficient in German, as a matter of fact, the Duke of Leuchtenberg stated that:
1. The German she speaks is so faulty that it must be clear to everyone that German cannot be her mother tongue.
2. She understands Russian excellently well, and could also speak Russian if she were not suffering from an inhibition.
3. She not only understands English, but also reads, writes, and speaks English.
4. She neither speaks nor understands a word of Polish.

Speaking of these 'schoolbooks', where were they, who saw them, and where are they now?

The school workbooks or the children of the Tsar were purchased by Ian Lilburn at an auction in London to be used as evidence in court.
From Peter Kurth: "Here, however, in black and white, were the lessons to prove that the Grand Duchess had studied German "in a serious manner," that her German lessons, in fact, bore fewer errors than her Russian lessons did."
The books are probably still in Germany.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Yes it was all about the money!

What money?

Chat, so now you're back to Xenia again and not Gilliard? It's very insulting to Olga to say she was influenced by anyone, or that she'd go along with denying a real AN for money. Look at her life, she had no money! She was the 'black sheep' of the family with the 'wrong' marriage who ended up livving on a dirt farm and dying in a small apartment. There were hard feelings between her and Xenia over their mother's estate which lasted a lifetime. This woman was no one's pawn, and was not controlled by anyone, and certainly not 'paid off!'

I have no idea why you keep coming up with the notion that Olga was "paid off". Let's look back at Olga and what we know about her dealings with AA in the beginning:
In 1925, she wrote to Shura: "Please go at once to Berlin with M. Gilliard to see the poor lady. Suppose she really were the little one. Heaven alone knows if she is or not. It would be such a disgrace if she were living all alone in her misery and if all that is true.....
P.S.: If it really is she, please send me a wire and I will come to Berlin to meet you."
We do not know what Shura answered, but Olga did go to Berlin to see the unknown patient. After meeting AA, she said to Herluf Zahle and Bella Cohen: "My heart tells me the little one is Anastasia." (AA weighed at this time less than eighty pounds; she had no front teeth; she had just begun to recover from an illness that had nearly killed her, and she was still sedated with morphine.)
From Peter Kurth: "Soon Grand Duchess Olga called Harriet von Rathlef out onto the balcony. She pointed into the sickroom and said, "Our little one and Shura seem very happy to have found one another again." Frau von Rathlef waited. Olga continued: "If I had any money, I would do everything for the little one, but I haven't any and must earn my own pocket money by painting."
What was the Grand Duchess trying to say? Finally is came out: "I am so happy that I came, and I did it even though Mamma did not want me to. She was so angry with me when I came. And then my sister wired me from England saying that under no circumstances should I come to see the little one.""
"Major-General Alexander Spiridovitch, the former chief of the Tsar's secret police, saw a letter Olga had sent to her mother's secretary in Denmark immediately after her first visit to AA: "Poor Mamma, how am I supposed to tell her? It will kill her." (The Dowager Empress was convinced that the Tsar and his family were all still alive.)
Olga then sent cards and little presents to AA, among them Grand Duchess Marie's personal photo album. She would write among other things: "Don't be afraid. You are not alone now and we shall not abandon you." I am remembering the times we were together, when you stuffed me full of chocolates, tea and cocoa." "Am longing to see you."
Then, in January, 1926, came her denial of AA in National Tidende.
From Peter Kurth: "Under the circumstances, Gilliard had the right to do anyting he pleased. "It was I who persuaded Grand Duchess Olga to issue the denial which appeared in the Danish Press....," he admitted some months later."
"Before granting Andrew the permission to investigate the affair, however, Olga added frankly: "You think I may be wrong. Such mistakes can of course happen. One way or the other it is ghastly."
"As Zahle explained it to Prince Frederick of Saxe-Altenburg, Grand Duchess Olga, during the second consultation with the Dowager Empress, was so nervous that she never took her eyes off her embroidery. When Zahle asked the Empress to consider how it would look to the world and to history if everything were not done that could be done to clear up this case, the Empress replied only: "My daughter Olga tells me this woman is not my granddaughter" (Interview with Prince Frederick of Saxe-Altenburg). And from the Zahle questionnaire: "Did Grand Duchess Olga's behavior (at this meeting) give Excellency Zahle the impression that she was deeply shamed by the contradiction between her behavior after her visit to the claimant in Berlin, when the Grand Duchess took the identity of the claimant with her niece to be as good as certain, and her subsequent denial of that identity in the press?""

[Anna was Franziska]

Chat we've all seen your anti Olga collection a dozen times. I'm not going to sit here and match quotes with you from her bio, or things I just reread in Massie that contradict all that. The only proof we need is that the DNA didn't match, the bodies have all been found, and AA was not AN therefore Olga was right and deserves an APOLOGY instead of more smears and insinuations. She didn't turn her back on her 'niece' she denied an imposter, and as I explained in the second part of the post you cut off, she had no money! It's all so terrible to villify this lady, even years after her death, for your own advantage. AA was not AN, she was right, let it go!

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Chat we've all seen your anti Olga collection a dozen times. I'm not going to sit here and match quotes with you from her bio, or things I just reread in Massie that contradict all that. The only proof we need is that the DNA didn't match, the bodies have all been found, and AA was not AN therefore Olga was right and deserves an APOLOGY instead of more smears and insinuations. She didn't turn her back on her 'niece' she denied an imposter, and as I explained in the second part of the post you cut off, she had no money! It's all so terrible to villify this lady, even years after her death, for your own advantage. AA was not AN, she was right, let it go!

For my own advantage? I have no idea what you are talking about. All I am doing, is trying to get the story straight, not speculating and insinuating like some others. If you see her own sayings and writings as "anti Olga collection", that is your problem.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

For my own advantage? I have no idea what you are talking about. All I am doing, is trying to get the story straight, not speculating and insinuating like some others.

No, you are trying to say that Olga believed in AA but was influenced by others to withdraw her support. You insinuate she DID accept her but was forced to deny her. You do this to try to bolster your own position that AA was AN, and because a close aunt's denial is a blow to the cause, you have to try to undermine it. If you really wanted to 'set the story straight' you'd admit that, no matter what, Olga DID NOT DENY ANY "NIECE" and apologize for attempting to frame her.

If you see her own sayings and writings as "anti Olga collection", that is your problem.

I have my own 'pro Olga collection' but since these quotes have been posted multiple times already by both of us I'm going to spare everyone.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

No, you are trying to say that Olga believed in AA but was influenced by others to withdraw her support.

And as you have seen, Gilliard was the one to admit that he talked her into the denial in the Copenhagen paper.

You insinuate she DID accept her but was forced to deny her.

I insinuate nothing, I only quote Olga's own cards and Herluf Zahle's statements.

You do this to try to bolster your own position that AA was AN, and because a close aunt's denial is a blow to the cause, you have to try to undermine it. If you really wanted to 'set the story straight' you'd admit that, no matter what, Olga DID NOT DENY ANY "NIECE" and apologize for attempting to frame her.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it will make any difference who AA was whether or not Olga accepted her. I have no idea why you are working yourself into a snit over this.

I have my own 'pro Olga collection' but since these quotes have been posted multiple times already by both of us I'm going to spare everyone.

Thank you.

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

This still doesn't prove she knew or could speak it! Studying does not = proficiency, in languages or anything else.
Speaking of these 'schoolbooks', where were they, who saw them, and where are they now?

They were bought by Ian Lilburn for the court case (in 1964 I believe) originally to try and get fingerprints from them. According to a Times report of the trial (I think I've already posted the date, if not am happy to look it up again) the schoolbooks dated from 1913 to 1916. They were produced as evidence in court for the trial. They were not returned to Ian Lilburn and as far as I am aware they are still with the rest of the evidence from the case, wherever that is - Hamburg presumably.

[Anna was Franziska]

What happened to the fingerprints?

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

What happened to the fingerprints?

They couldn't get any. GD Anastasia was a very neat pupil, no blotches etc anywhere in her books to give them a print.

I' m surprised you don't already know this. It is detailed in PK's book and I'm sure it's been discussed elsewhere.

[AGRBear]

In order to have found a fingerprint in those days, they would have destroyed GD Anastasia book/books and the court in AA's case ruled not to do so. Today, the fingerprints might be found with new technic that would not destroy the books.

If my memory serves me well this afternoon, I believe the books were sold and the present owner's name is not known to the public.


AGRBear

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by AGRBear

In order to have found a fingerprint in those days, they would have destroyed GD Anastasia book/books and the court in AA's case ruled not to do so. Today, the fingerprints might be found with new technic that would not destroy the books.

If my memory serves me well this afternoon, I believe the books were sold and the present owner's name is not known to the public.


AGRBear

Bear, how could they be sold? They were taken by the court as part of the evidence in the case and never returned to Ian Lilburn who was the rightful owner. Maybe there was another set of schoolbooks that you are thinking of?

[Anna was Franziska]

Seems like I remember Chat posting once somewhere that Darmstadt had the fingerprints and was hiding them, or something like that.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Seems like I remember Chat posting once somewhere that Darmstadt had the fingerprints and was hiding them, or something like that.

To the best of my knowledge, the schoolbooks were not Ian Lilburn's private property. Their purchase was sanctioned by AA's attorneys, and they are probably being kept together with all the other material pertaining to the case.
As for Darmstadt hiding the fingerprints, this is something that I have never posted. Darmstadt did hide the positive results of the graphological test that Lucy Weiszäcker did in the late 20's, or maybe even destroyed them.

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

To the best of my knowledge, the schoolbooks were not Ian Lilburn's private property. Their purchase was sanctioned by AA's attorneys, and they are probably being kept together with all the other material pertaining to the case. ..[in part]...

Are any of AA's lawyers still living? If they have died, who, at this point in time, would have the material, such as GD Anastasia's books?

Anyone know from whom they had purchased the books?

The word "private auction" still pops up in my head when referring to these books. I cannot pull the rest of the story out of my memory bank at this time. Sorry.

AGRBear