Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

Do you mean to say that he admitted that he burned his papers because he'd been caught lying? If so, please give some details about where this admission is published. If not, the answer to your last question appears to be the statement in Peter Kurth's book that he burned his papers because he thought the case was closed. You might not agree with that statement, but it still seems to be the closest thing we have to published verification of his motives.

No, that's not what I said. I was responding to AWF who said maybe he had lied about burning them, although I can't imagine why he would. He said he burned his papers while he was being strongly questioned by AA's lawyers. He lied about variouus things - see Chat's post - one example being the contentious German lessons which he actually timetabled while they were at Tobolsk and yet he said they didn't know any German. Those lies had been told prior to the appearance in court - eg in his book La Fausse Anastasia.

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

I agree, I have seen this happen very often with AA supporters, but when I do background checks on what they claim, it rarely adds up to what was told for the truth.
.

Please give us an example.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

No, no, no. I mean a few words as in a few words, such as counting to 10 and literally a few words. Other family members say they spoke none at all.

And neither did I at home. Absolutely none. Still upon my first arrival in Germany, I spoke close to fluent German. AN was not at all fluent in German, Anna Vyburova says in her book that none of the Grand Duchesses were well versed in neither French nor German. But they continued their language lessons all the way to Tobolsk.

AA clearly used German to communicate, meaning she was more than functional in the language and chose to use it over any other.

Seems reasonable since she was in Germany.

As Bux said, she ignored her English and spoke German to the nurse. Olga was taken aback because she knew the real AN did not have a command of German.

And how often did Olga speak German with the Grand Duchesses?

FS would have used German as her language of choice, over her other one Kashub Polish.

Absolutely, and she spoke good German, too, according to her family.

Also AA, as Olga mentioned, didn't talk much, so her grunting words here and there could have been misread as bad German.

Grunting words? She asked about Olga's family, confirmed names of people at the court, asked about rooms, commented on photos. (Read my post with excerpts from Bella Cohen's interview. Also Rathlef Keilmann.)

AN knew English, Russian and French. Strange she'd forget all three so quickly (as Olga mentioned in the quote I posted, she was told she was pulled from the canal speaking German exclusively) Even aphasia victims don't forget entire languages.

And AA understood all that Olga said to her in Russian, something Olga confirmed in a letter to Mordvinov of March 30, 1927.

I really do think you AA supporters have tried this German thing long enough, and it will never excuse why a girl who spoke fluent Russian, nearly fluent English and a lot of French and a 'few German words' to 'no German at all' suddenly only used German. It was because she was FS!

And why would FS all of a sudden start using bad German with a very limited vocabulary?

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by AGRBear

I've never said or even hinted that Dr. Ginther's unpublished results of the slide and the other objects were wrong. How in the world did you get the impression that I had?

AGRBear

I didn't. He said himself that the results with the slide weren't believable and that the other specimens didn't give usable DNA samples. Given that he said it himself, I was interested in why you were saying that the results weren't published because of prior publication by the Stoneking-Gill group. If he didn't have publishable results -and he himself said his sample was too contaminated for the results to be believable - then the publication of another study is irrelevant. You can't get a decent research paper out of "we tested this sample, but we found such heavy contamination that it gave different results almost every time it was tested, and so we're no further forward in knowing whether the person the sample came from was related to either the Imperial family or the Schankowska family." That remains true whether someone else had published another study or not. Had his results been usable, and if they'd been the same as the Gill-Stoneking ones, that wouldn't have ruled out trying to publish on the grounds that the reference samples (Princess Sofia and Margarete Ellerik) were different so it would have provided independent confirmation, or even offering to publish jointly with the Gill-Stoneking groups. And of course if the results he obtained were different from the ones Gill and Stoneking had obtained, and consistently different, that would have been a very publishable piece of work.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by AGRBear

Let us take this one step at a time and see if you can finally convince me that AA was FS without the use of DNA/mtDNA.

AA jumped into the Berlin canal 17 Feb 1918.

About 3 weeks later: The report of the police [I forget the term Chat used earlier on this thread] tells us that the Wingenders established, I believe, it was around the 12th of March 1918 that AA had not returned to her place of residence, which was a room in their home/flat/apartment building [this is unclear to me].

This is not an assumption nor "questionable heresay", this is a report which is dated. And, evidence like this should be noted by everyone.

If Chat has time, perhaps he could repeat this information so we have the dates and the rest of the information correct.

AGRBear

The more you read up on this tangled case, the more details emerge. A copy of the "Abmeldung" for FS, dated March 9, 1920, was supposed to be produced by Doris Wingender as a condition of her being paid 1500 DM by the Nachtausgabe. This Abmeldung, however, has never been seen by anyone. According to Felix S., the Wingenders contacted his family "sometime in March and told them that FS had vanished. The family contacted the Berlin Police, who did not have an Abmeldung for FS and did not know where she had gone." So the date of March 9 is now in question until a copy of the Abmeldung is found.

[Menarue]

I wonder if anyone knows what kind of education FS had? Actually I have heard many so called celebrities, sport and entertainment who are almost illiterate but they are native speakers and I forgot to mention,have a very limited vocabulary...
In those days, in Germany, or Poland or wherever, I don´t know if children were obliged to go to school? I don´t know for how long?

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

...[in part]...

Actually it was 500,000 and most of them were aristocrats who most likely had better transportation after they left the country.

I stand corrected. It was 500,000.

In general aristocracts were not as capable, due to their lack of knowledge on how things worked among the peasants, as the majority of the 500,000 were. The several people you've used as examples are good examples of people who did want to leave Russia. And, yes, they took longer than 5 months. But, you cannot compare them to the majority of peasants who fled from all parts of Russia to Germany in that time period.


AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

The more you read up on this tangled case, the more details emerge. A copy of the "Abmeldung" for FS, dated March 9, 1920, was supposed to be produced by Doris Wingender as a condition of her being paid 1500 DM by the Nachtausgabe. This Abmeldung, however, has never been seen by anyone. According to Felix S., the Wingenders contacted his family "sometime in March and told them that FS had vanished. The family contacted the Berlin Police, who did not have an Abmeldung for FS and did not know where she had gone." So the date of March 9 is now in question until a copy of the Abmeldung is found.

Thanks Chat.

I had forgotten this correction.

Trying to recall the Timeline for FS.

If I remember correctly, shortly before this she had been working at a bottle factory in Posen. And, it was because she was close to her family that she visited them for Christmas [1919]. Then she went to work in asparagus field near Berlin. Have I remembered this correctly?

AGRBear

[ChatNoir]

You know more than me here, I only know that the bottle-washing factory was in Bütow. While working there, she cut her ringfinger on the right hand just under the nail which caused a bit of stiffness to the last joint in the finger. (Felix S.) AA had no such scar or stiffness in same finger.
She did go to work in 1920 planting asparagus outside Berlin, the dates are in Rathlef Keilmann.

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter

Those lies had been told prior to the appearance in court - eg in his book La Fausse Anastasia.

Are you saying he lied in his book and falsified information? How do you know this? What are your sources?

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by Menarue

I wonder if anyone knows what kind of education FS had? Actually I have heard many so called celebrities, sport and entertainment who are almost illiterate but they are native speakers and I forgot to mention,have a very limited vocabulary...
In those days, in Germany, or Poland or wherever, I don´t know if children were obliged to go to school? I don´t know for how long?

I believe it was on AP that Richard Schweitzer talked about FS's education as have Peter Kurth on other forums. If I remember correctly, and my memory has failed me twice this morning, FS had the usual schooling provided in Posen. In the USA at that same time, this would have been about the eight grade. Then, she was accepted to the higher grade and moved to a town near where she grew-up since B. [however you spell the village she was born] didn't have the upper grade schools. This means she had passed tests providing information that she was capable of going up into what we'd call High School. Only a small minority of village girls went on to this level. She was about 14....or was it 15. About this time her mother remarried. For some reason FS's stopped going to school. Not sure if we know the reason. At the age of 16, her mother sent FS and Gertrude to Berlin to work.

I believe one of her teachers have given us some information about the student she had known as FS. Don't recall where I read this.

I've got phones not working and revisions to do because we're off two feet on piers for deck. I'll be back when I can.

AGRBear

PS The samples Remy gave Dr. Ginther was done for Remy. This is what Curious One was interested and his answer was toward these samples mentioned in Massie's book, THE FINAL CHAPTER. The testing he did for King is not related, although, Remy inquired into his findings about the intestine sample. His letter to Curious One tells us that he agrees with Dr. Gill's findings on the sample of the intestines.

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

You know more than me here, I only know that the bottle-washing factory was in Bütow. While working there, she cut her ringfinger on the right hand just under the nail which caused a bit of stiffness to the last joint in the finger. (Felix S.) AA had no such scar or stiffness in same finger.
She did go to work in 1920 planting asparagus outside Berlin, the dates are in Rathlef Keilmann.

Buetow [Bytow] is north of Posen [Pozan].

Bytow Region Map: Barnowiec — Zapcen | Poland Google Satellite Maps

AGRBear

[tian]

Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter

But that book wasn't published until 1996, after AA died.

What I mean is that the swastika could be easily seen, it wasn’t a secret known only by the imperial family. All Nicholas’s cars seem to have had swastika as hood ornament.

How many actually took note of it is a different thing. Gilliard and Volkov apparently didn't

[Menarue]

Thanks AGRBear. I hadn´t seen anything about FS´s education.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter

Please give us an example.

Where do I start? Just about everything! The more more I learned, the more holes I saw through her story. The usual list of alleged 'differences' comes to mind, many of the quotes, statements passed off as fact that were really either only speculation, exaggeration, or from sources with very shaky ground.

For example, let's start with the famous and oft quoted line 'she knew things only the real Anastasia could have known!' This is stated as fact on many websites and by many individuals to explain why they believe in her. But taking this apart, we see in reality, there was nothing only the real AN could have known, and if there were, who would be there to verify it? Everyone in her immediate family was dead. If it was something others around the family could have known, then there's a possibility that one of those who fled Russia could have told AA, either intentionally, or incidently in conversation during one of their visits.

Perhaps the biggest one of these to me was the "Uncle Ernie's visit", usually referred to by AA supporters as 'dropping the bomb' or 'spilling the beans.' It's used to make excuses why Ernie was so out to get AA, apparently, so anxious to get rid of her that he conspired with detectives and newspapers to fabricate the FS story and falsify evidence (according to some AA supporters) Besides the fact that said trip likely never happened, or that someone else possibly knew about it to tell her if it did, the biggest epiphany moment came when I saw a German girl on another forum post, quite innocently and in a context not even concerning AA, that she had purchased a book called "In the Face of the Revolution". Published in Germany in 1922, it alleged Ernie took the trip and gave supposed 'evidence' to prove it. Since it did exist in Germany 3 years before she made her accusation to Ernie, the fact that the story was not unique to a member of the Imperial family, it really diffused the old 'bomb!'

AA supporters have openly stated matter of factly that FS was 5'6" while AA was 5'2". When I researched this further, I found out the only 'evidence' of FS's height came from the Wingender sisters, who said she was 'a little taller than us' and they were 5'3". The only other source of her height was that a foreman she used to work with guessed she was 'about 5'4". Yet as it passed around the net, the difference grew 2 more inches. Even the estimate of 5'4" is just a guess- if you're tired of my dirty dog story, do you remember the story of the group of fans who all met the rock star on the same night, yet all reported him a different height and all swore they were right? Height is very, very subjective, can easily be distorted in the mind's eye over time, and a person's perception of height can too easily be influenced by hairdos, shoes, them or the other person standing on a curb, incline or decline in the ground, curbs, steps or other factors. Bottom line- it's not a FACT that FS was taller than AA, just an estimate based on guesses. Same goes for the hair color accounts which are subjective and change from person to person. Might as well throw the old shoes in here, too, since people can get shoe sizes wrong, and sizes vary so much due to makers and materials.

Then take the claim that 'lots of family members who knew AN real well swore she was Anastasia'. As I checked into this, the details emerged- there were no 'close family members' on the list, and the people who claimed her didn't know her nearly as well as those who had denied her, and some who claimed her later denounced her. Others put on the list of accepting her actually made very different declarations I found elsewhere. Some who accepted her never met the real AN, and/or only based their acceptance on such intangibles as 'she has the tsar's eyes' or 'waves like the empress' or 'raised her hand to be kissed like a true lady of breeding.' A lot of it was generic perceived family likeness or random "Grand Duchess" in general, not much specific to Anastasia herself.

I could go on and on and on, but the post will only hold so many words.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Where do I start? Just about everything! The more more I learned, the more holes I saw through her story. The usual list of alleged 'differences' comes to mind, many of the quotes, statements passed off as fact that were really either only speculation, exaggeration, or from sources with very shaky ground.

For example, let's start with the famous and oft quoted line 'she knew things only the real Anastasia could have known!' This is stated as fact on many websites and by many individuals to explain why they believe in her. But taking this apart, we see in reality, there was nothing only the real AN could have known, and if there were, who would be there to verify it? Everyone in her immediate family was dead. If it was something others around the family could have known, then there's a possibility that one of those who fled Russia could have told AA, either intentionally, or incidently in conversation during one of their visits.

Rember when Olga med AA in Berlin, and AA talked to her about the winding staircase where the girls would go down and sit on the little chairs, watching their mother have her hair done in the morning? The names she knew of the ladies at the court? The photo of Shura with her face hidden, and still AA knew who it was? (Bella Cohen, New York Times.) Where did she get this kind of information?

Perhaps the biggest one of these to me was the "Uncle Ernie's visit", usually referred to by AA supporters as 'dropping the bomb' or 'spilling the beans.' It's used to make excuses why Ernie was so out to get AA, apparently, so anxious to get rid of her that he conspired with detectives and newspapers to fabricate the FS story and falsify evidence (according to some AA supporters) Besides the fact that said trip likely never happened, or that someone else possibly knew about it to tell her if it did, the biggest epiphany moment came when I saw a German girl on another forum post, quite innocently and in a context not even concerning AA, that she had purchased a book called "In the Face of the Revolution". Published in Germany in 1922, it alleged Ernie took the trip and gave supposed 'evidence' to prove it. Since it did exist in Germany 3 years before she made her accusation to Ernie, the fact that the story was not unique to a member of the Imperial family, it really diffused the old 'bomb!'

And from the article in a German newspaper (see my earlier post) we know that Darmstadt tried the same approach: AA had to have seen the article in the Entente press that alleged that Ernst von Hesse had undertaken a trip to Russia during the war. Of course, all Ernst had to do, was to go to Berlin, take a look at AA and flatly declare her an impostor. Why spend all that money to denounce her? And why did AA beg Frau Rathlef Keilmann to bring "uncle Ernie" to Berlin? If she really were an impostor, I think any member of the family was the last thing she wanted to see.

AA supporters have openly stated matter of factly that FS was 5'6" while AA was 5'2". When I researched this further, I found out the only 'evidence' of FS's height came from the Wingender sisters, who said she was 'a little taller than us' and they were 5'3". The only other source of her height was that a foreman she used to work with guessed she was 'about 5'4". Yet as it passed around the net, the difference grew 2 more inches. Even the estimate of 5'4" is just a guess- if you're tired of my dirty dog story, do you remember the story of the group of fans who all met the rock star on the same night, yet all reported him a different height and all swore they were right? Height is very, very subjective, can easily be distorted in the mind's eye over time, and a person's perception of height can too easily be influenced by hairdos, shoes, them or the other person standing on a curb, incline or decline in the ground, curbs, steps or other factors. Bottom line- it's not a FACT that FS was taller than AA, just an estimate based on guesses. Same goes for the hair color accounts which are subjective and change from person to person. Might as well throw the old shoes in here, too, since people can get shoe sizes wrong, and sizes vary so much due to makers and materials.

The fans met the rock star one night. FS stayed with the Wingenders over a long period of time.

Then take the claim that 'lots of family members who knew AN real well swore she was Anastasia'. As I checked into this, the details emerged- there were no 'close family members' on the list, and the people who claimed her didn't know her nearly as well as those who had denied her, and some who claimed her later denounced her. Others put on the list of accepting her actually made very different declarations I found elsewhere. Some who accepted her never met the real AN, and/or only based their acceptance on such intangibles as 'she has the tsar's eyes' or 'waves like the empress' or 'raised her hand to be kissed like a true lady of breeding.' A lot of it was generic perceived family likeness or random "Grand Duchess" in general, not much specific to Anastasia herself.

Olga said when she left Berlin: "My heart tells me that the little one is Anastasia." Gilliard told Zahle: "We are leaving without being able to say she is not the Grand Duchess." Grand Duke Andrew recognized her as AN. Tatiana and Gleb Botkin never wavered in their belief that AA was AN. Neither did Xenia Leeds, who really was not in the position to "recognize" AA since they only played together in childhood. But she saw the family likeness, and AA apparently reminded her of many things that they had done together as children. And as Xenia said: The moment I saw her, I knew I was looking at an equal. Lili Dehn spent a week with AA, and according to her, AA was AN. "She never made a mistake."

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Where did she get this kind of information?

Books written in the early 20's, magazines with stories and photos, Russian emigres' who had visited her. The only sure place she didn't get it was Russia.

Why spend all that money to denounce her?

How about to stop a crazy imposter from pretending to be your dead niece and trying to get money out of 'relatives?'

The fans met the rock star one night. FS stayed with the Wingenders over a long period of time.

It's still subjective, and based on too many factors, such as heeled shoes. I could not accurately tell you if any friend or cousin I stayed with for days was taller than me or not. Guesstimates are not proof.

Olga said when she left Berlin: "My heart tells me that the little one is Anastasia."

I don't know the source of this, but I can post a dozen quotes from her declaring otherwise. We've been through this repeatedly. Olga spent years testifying against AA, she gave the invalid every chance and realized it wasn't her niece.

Gilliard told Zahle: "We are leaving without being able to say she is not the Grand Duchess."

And later, like Olga, after giving her a chance, realized it wasn't AN, and became one of her strongest opponents. Please don't bother to feed me the 'paid off by Ernie' line I've heard it a thousand times like a bad infomercial and don't believe it.

Grand Duke Andrew recognized her as AN.

As I said, people not so close to the family. As a member of the hated Vladmiriovichi line, and married to the ex mistress of the Tsar, he was hardly a frequent family guest. He also later withdrew his support.

Tatiana and Gleb Botkin never wavered in their belief that AA was AN.

Well, you know what I think of that.

family likeness,

Yeah, I mentioned that perceived family likeness thing, not AN particularly. I've see some say she reminded them of the dowager empress, whom the real AN didn't resemble in the least. It's not accurate.

and AA apparently reminded her of many things that they had done together as children.

Xenia's sister Nina remembered AN as a bad child who cheated at games, kicked, scratched and pulled hair'- so maybe she took this to explain AA's rampages and odd behavior!

And as Xenia (Leeds) said: The moment I saw her, I knew I was looking at an equal.

and she was wrong, unless she was the equal of a Kashub factory worker.

Lili Dehn spent a week with AA, and according to her, AA was AN. "She never made a mistake."

A week? Come on. This is questionable, as I've said before, for many reasons. The incidents she and AA shared were right out of Lili's book, going out to talk to the soldiers, descriptions of Alexandra's clothes, etc. The way she 'waved goodbye like the Empress' could easily been taught her over the years by anyone who knew the family. She never met Lili until the 1950's, much time had passed, Lili was elderly and AA no spring chicken- making harder to connect a teenage girl of distant memory with a middle aged woman in the room. Also Lili's daughter openly called AA an 'imposter' and claimed her mother had 'no immediate recognition.'

I have been through all this before. Same old.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Books written in the early 20's, magazines with stories and photos, Russian emigres' who had visited her. The only sure place she didn't get it was Russia.

I don't think the photo of Shura was published in any book.

How about to stop a crazy imposter from pretending to be your dead niece and trying to get money out of 'relatives?'

As I said, it could easily have been done with one single visit to Berlin. And what 'relatives' were she trying to get money from?

I don't know the source of this, but I can post a dozen quotes from her declaring otherwise. We've been through this repeatedly. Olga spent years testifying against AA, she gave the invalid every chance and realized it wasn't her niece.

The source of this is Harriet Rathlef Keilmann. You know, the one who sent her manuscript to Olga for verification and was told by Olga that her account of the happenings at Mommsen were "quite correct".

And later, like Olga, after giving her a chance, realized it wasn't AN, and became one of her strongest opponents. Please don't bother to feed me the 'paid off by Ernie' line I've heard it a thousand times like a bad infomercial and don't believe it.

And I have not used the 'paid off by Ernie' line. All I know, is that Gilliard passed himself off as the "Representative of the House of Hesse".

As I said, people not so close to the family. As a member of the hated Vladmiriovichi line, and married to the ex mistress of the Tsar, he was hardly a frequent family guest. He also later withdrew his support.

He did not withdraw his support, he was ordered off the case by his brother. (Kurth)

Well, you know what I think of that.

Yes, I do. Would be nice if you could give a valid reason.

and she was wrong, unless she was the equal of a Kashub factory worker.

She was wrong? And how do you know?

A week? Come on. This is questionable, as I've said before, for many reasons. The incidents she and AA shared were right out of Lili's book, going out to talk to the soldiers, descriptions of Alexandra's clothes, etc. The way she 'waved goodbye like the Empress' could easily been taught her over the years by anyone who knew the family. She never met Lili until the 1950's, much time had passed, Lili was elderly and AA no spring chicken- making harder to connect a teenage girl of distant memory with a middle aged woman in the room. Also Lili's daughter openly called AA an 'imposter' and claimed her mother had 'no immediate recognition.'

Please post Lili's daughter's claims.

[Anna was Franziska]

You know I think the Botkins were part of the charade. Why make me say it again? Their 'endorsement' means nothing to me for that reason. Andrew actually backed out after Gleb's very rude letter to Xenia A. {deleted - Elspeth} You have asked me to post the Lili's daughter quote no less than six times, I think this makes seven.(counting PMs and other forums)

http://www.whoiswho.ru/russian/Passw...5r/den/st1.htm

Rough translation:

Large shaking was for Lillie the moment, when was conducted examination on the establishment of personality Anna Anderson, itself for the great princess to Anastasiy, the junior daughter of last tsar put out. " No of spontaneous of recognition" , i.e., " No. I do not at first glance learn [ee]" , the friend of tsarina said, after seeing impostor. The fact that Anna Anderson by no means not Anastasiy, Lillie's [trezvomyslyashchaya] did not doubt (that also confirmed after death Anderson DNA analysis),

As for the memories, she got them somewhere else because she wasn't AN. Ho hum same old.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

You know I think the Botkins were part of the charade. Why make me say it again? Their 'endorsement' means nothing to me for that reason.

So you really believe that two people so devoted to the IF would willingly back an impostor? You seem to forget that there was not a penny in it for any of them.

Andrew actually backed out after Gleb's very rude letter to Xenia A. {deleted - Elspeth} You have asked me to post the Lili's daughter quote no less than six times, I think this makes seven.(counting PMs and other forums)

Andrew was disappointed in Botkin's methods, but it was Cyril who ordered him to stop investigating the case. And the quote from Lili's daughter confirms that Lili did not recognize AA as AN upon their first meeting. They had both grown much older, and the recognition came over days as they talked together about the old days at the court. As Lili said about AA: I have recognized her through signs that do not deceive.

As for the memories, she got them somewhere else because she wasn't AN. Ho hum same old.

Then maybe you could show us where she got them.