Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Anna was Franziska]

What I am trying to tell you, is that I am trying to follow the story from February 1920 without mixing it with allegations and assumptions and my own opinions.

But by defending AA as being AN, you are making allegations that the DNA tests are wrong. For if they are not, (and they aren't) you have on case and nothing else matters.

Think one more time of the improbability of all these switches: the intestines, the hair, and the bones in Russia. Sorry, but there is no way that your defense of the pro AA position is not a denial of the DNA, and allegations of either fraud, misconduct, ineptitude, or all three, of the scientists and labs who worked on all those tests.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

According to the Duke of Leuchtenberg, it was very clear that the two ladies had never seen each other before.

You choose to believe who you want. The other accounts tell a very different story. Even Faith Lavington, who had been in favor of AA, had her faith shaken by the incidents. She told it honestly in her diary. Both Lavington and the paper reporter declared AA yelled out angrily 'that thing must go/get out!'

Sorry, this was the retouched photo that the Nachtausgabe used, with earrings and the whole nine yards. There is also another one in existence that Gilliard used for his La Fausse Anastasia, not quite as elaborately touched up.

Lavington said the picture was a PHOTO- that one is a drawing. Look at it closely. The shape of the face and the width of the mouth and the distance between the eyes are not the same as the photo. It was a drawing, like the profile of AA.

 

[ChatNoir]

You choose to believe who you want. The other accounts tell a very different story. Even Faith Lavington, who had been in favor of AA, had her faith shaken by the incidents. She told it honestly in her diary. Both Lavington and the paper reporter declared AA yelled out angrily 'that thing must go/get out!'

Faith Lavington was not in the room, the Duke of Leuchtenberg was the only witness. And Doris just stood there like a dummy, never said 'Hi Franzisca' or anything, just glared. And AA did not yell, she said politely: Bitte, das soll rausgehen in her poor German. But the Nachtausgabe was royally paid for their story, so they had to deliver.

Lavington said the picture was a PHOTO- that one is a drawing. Look at it closely. The shape of the face and the width of the mouth and the distance between the eyes are not the same as the photo. It was a drawing, like the profile of AA.

And that is a photo, however heavily retouched. And that was what the Nachtausgabe used.

 

[ChatNoir]

But by defending AA as being AN, you are making allegations that the DNA tests are wrong. For if they are not, (and they aren't) you have on case and nothing else matters.

If telling the story as described from witnesses is wrong, so sue me!

Think one more time of the improbability of all these switches: the intestines, the hair, and the bones in Russia. Sorry, but there is no way that your defense of the pro AA position is not a denial of the DNA, and allegations of either fraud, misconduct, ineptitude, or all three, of the scientists and labs who worked on all those tests.

I never think about it, the AA story itself is too interesting. Whether she was AN or not is not so important. And until we have a legal ruling, I am having fun discussing this thing on the various boards.

 

[Warren]

As the "Translations of "La Fausse Anastasie" by Pierre Gilliard" thread has turned into a rehash of the "Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia" thread, the two threads have been merged.

Warren
Russian Forum moderator

 

[tian]

I've read numerous books on the family and have never seen any reference to them meeting any member of the Swedish royals, other than Marie Pavolvna who married into them. Even if Nicholas may have met them, the children did not. Can you produce a source that proves otherwise?

Actually, Märtha and Anastasia met at least once. The Imperial Family made a state visit to Sweden in 1909. Pictures of this meeting can be found in Nicholas and Alexandra, The Family Albums p. 82-83 and The Russian Imperial Award System 1894-1917 p.345.

 

[tsarskoe]

Having previously been a staunch supporter of AA until the past could of years, I had to weigh a lot of contradictory evidence, testimony, etc to finally accept that AA was not Anastasia. There were two stories in particular which convinced me that AA was not authentic. The first was her insistence that ANR's English tutor Sydney Gibbes was partially deformed on one side of his body and that he trailed one foot/walked with a limp. She insisted this in the mid 1920's and again after she met Gibbes approximately three decades later. Sydney was not deformed nor did he limp, he did however hold his head at an odd angle during photographs which AA apparently mistook for a deformity. The real Anastasia would not have made such a mistake.

The other involves the Russian Captain Felix Dassel. Dassel had been wounded during WWI and was sent to the hospital of which GD Marie and Anastasia were patronesses. Eventually he was asked to act as chaperon for the two Duchesses. When he met AA during her stay with the Leuchtenberg family he asked her a series of trick questions all of which she apparently had gotten correct. He later wrote a book in support of her claim and testified during the never-ending German trail which ended in a stalemate.

Yet AA made two mistakes during her "recollections" while Dassel was visiting. The first which is could be written off as insignificant regards a comment Dassel made to AA that the Tsarevitch Alexei used to come with his sisters Marie and Anastasia during their visits to their hospital. AA was adamant that Alexei never went with them. Dassel concurred that this was correct. Yet there are photographs showing that Alexei did indeed visit the hospital with his sisters. Perhaps such visits were rare and thus neither Dassel or AA "recalled" them, perhaps. The second mistake is one that the true Grand Duchess Anastasia could not have made. It was mentioned to AA that Dassel had said that the Tsar had a tattoo on one of his arms. AA was vehement in her denial of this claim and stated that she had often seen his arms while he rowed boats and he certainly did not have any tattoos. (Kurth, 192) (I find it interesting that a low ranking soldier would know whether or not the Tsar had a tattoo or not.) Apparently this was = another of Dassel's trick questions which AA was supposedly successful at. Yet she was not. The Tsar did in fact have a tattoo on his arm. In fact it was a very large dragon that he had gotten in Japan before he had become Tsar. In his diary he mentioned the hours of pain he sustained during its creation. Even the Japanese police who carefully watched the foreign heir during his visit recorded his going to a tattoo parlor. There is simply no way the real Anastasia would have missed such a tattoo.

For more information about the Tsar's tattoo see the Alexander Palace Discussion board under Nicholas II (Under tattoo). Also note that Baron von Kleist's daughter Gerda who lived with AA when she was first removed from the Asylum by the Russian monarchists proclaimed that Captain Dassel had in fact visited AA in her father's home and thus had already shared his knowledge with AA only to come to see her while she was at the Leuchtenberg's and pretend that it was his first meeting with her.

 

[ChatNoir]

Having previously been a staunch supporter of AA until the past could of years, I had to weigh a lot of contradictory evidence, testimony, etc to finally accept that AA was not Anastasia. There were two stories in particular which convinced me that AA was not authentic. The first was her insistence that ANR's English tutor Sydney Gibbes was partially deformed on one side of his body and that he trailed one foot/walked with a limp. She insisted this in the mid 1920's and again after she met Gibbes approximately three decades later. Sydney was not deformed nor did he limp, he did however hold his head at an odd angle during photographs which AA apparently mistook for a deformity. The real Anastasia would not have made such a mistake.

She never said that he limped, she said that 'he rather trailed one foot.' Do we have any other description of Gibbs somewhere?

The other involves the Russian Captain Felix Dassel. Dassel had been wounded during WWI and was sent to the hospital of which GD Marie and Anastasia were patronesses. Eventually he was asked to act as chaperon for the two Duchesses. When he met AA during her stay with the Leuchtenberg family he asked her a series of trick questions all of which she apparently had gotten correct. He later wrote a book in support of her claim and testified during the never-ending German trail which ended in a stalemate.

He did not write a book, it was rather more of a pamphlet. The whole edition was mysteriously bought up right after it came on the market and disappeared from circulation. Later, in 1927, when Dassel passed through Hesse on his travels, he was arrested for no reason. Somebody must have been very, very nervous about his identification of AA.

Yet AA made two mistakes during her "recollections" while Dassel was visiting. The first which is could be written off as insignificant regards a comment Dassel made to AA that the Tsarevitch Alexei used to come with his sisters Marie and Anastasia during their visits to their hospital. AA was adamant that Alexei never went with them. Dassel concurred that this was correct. Yet there are photographs showing that Alexei did indeed visit the hospital with his sisters. Perhaps such visits were rare and thus neither Dassel or AA "recalled" them, perhaps.

Which sisters? There was more than one hospital. Please let us know what sisters are shown in the photos.

The second mistake is one that the true Grand Duchess Anastasia could not have made. It was mentioned to AA that Dassel had said that the Tsar had a tattoo on one of his arms. AA was vehement in her denial of this claim and stated that she had often seen his arms while he rowed boats and he certainly did not have any tattoos. (Kurth, 192) (I find it interesting that a low ranking soldier would know whether or not the Tsar had a tattoo or not.) Apparently this was = another of Dassel's trick questions which AA was supposedly successful at. Yet she was not. The Tsar did in fact have a tattoo on his arm. In fact it was a very large dragon that he had gotten in Japan before he had become Tsar. In his diary he mentioned the hours of pain he sustained during its creation. Even the Japanese police who carefully watched the foreign heir during his visit recorded his going to a tattoo parlor. There is simply no way the real Anastasia would have missed such a tattoo.

No tattoo here:

Also note that Baron von Kleist's daughter Gerda who lived with AA when she was first removed from the Asylum by the Russian monarchists proclaimed that Captain Dassel had in fact visited AA in her father's home and thus had already shared his knowledge with AA only to come to see her while she was at the Leuchtenberg's and pretend that it was his first meeting with her.

And was it not Gerda who insisted in court that her sister was dead when the sister was very much alive "with fond memories of AA"? And she was also the one that told the judges that AA had "ducked under the table to wipe her nose on the table cloth". I'm afraid she stopped at nothing in order to discredit AA whom she was rather hostile towards. Let it also be known that she refused to testify on oath! Dassel did not visit the Kleists according to him, "he knew that circle of emigrees." Later, when AA came under the protection of the Duke of Leuchtenberg, he realized that there might be more to the claim than he first thought, and so he set off to Seeon to see for himself.
If he recognized her at Kleist's, why did he not come forward then? Why wait 5 years?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

She never said that he limped, she said that 'he rather trailed one foot.' Do we have any other description of Gibbs somewhere?

I have wondered if perhaps the person(s) giving AA her info got some things mixed up, such as the finger incident which was Maria and not Anastasia. Anna V. had a terrible limp after her 1915 train accident, and with or without the use of a crutch, 'trailed one foot.' This is the kind of thing that caught AA in mistakes, though they are usually written off to her 'bad memory' due to her 'trauma' from 'Ekaterinburg.'

Later, in 1927, when Dassel passed through Hesse on his travels, he was arrested for no reason. Somebody must have been very, very nervous about his identification of AA.

So again we get harsh unproven accusations against Ernie.

In Klier and Mingay's book, they tell a story that a notebook containing the info AA would need to answer Dassel's questions was locked up by Leuchtenberg in an attempt to prove she couldn't find them, but I always wondered if maybe she was tipped off.

And she was also the one that told the judges that AA had "ducked under the table to wipe her nose on the table cloth".

"A true lady of breeding" there

I'm afraid she stopped at nothing in order to discredit AA whom she was rather hostile towards.

Oh here we go again, anyone who didn't accept her false claim was 'out to discredit her' in your view. Did you ever consider she was 'hostile' toward her because she could tell she was a faker who was using her parents for free room and board and trying to use this to her advantage in the emigre' community? That would be a very frustrating thing to sit there and watch in your own house.

If he recognized her at Kleist's, why did he not come forward then? Why wait 5 years?

I don't think he 'recognized' her but was talking to her seeing if she was real or a fake since he didn't know the real AN that closely. Later, perhaps he was honestly fooled by the notebook, or perhaps he decided to join the charade camp for possible financial gain later.

 

[ChatNoir]

I have wondered if perhaps the person(s) giving AA her info got some things mixed up, such as the finger incident which was Maria and not Anastasia.

And what people would that be? As for the finger incident, it was witnessed by Shura and Captain Sablin from the Standart. Also Admiral Schilling's niece wrote a long letter to Frau Rathlef Keilmann telling her how she vividly remembered hearing about the accident of Anastasia's finger being crushed in a carriage door, and Chaplain Karl Berg also remembered hearing about it while staying in Tsarskoe Selo. As for Marie's "accident", what witnesses do you have?

Anna V. had a terrible limp after her 1915 train accident, and with or without the use of a crutch, 'trailed one foot.' This is the kind of thing that caught AA in mistakes, though they are usually written off to her 'bad memory' due to her 'trauma' from 'Ekaterinburg.'

I have never seen any mentioning of AV 'trailing one foot.' Sources, please.

So again we get harsh unproven accusations against Ernie.

Who mentioned Ernie?

In Klier and Mingay's book, they tell a story that a notebook containing the info AA would need to answer Dassel's questions was locked up by Leuchtenberg in an attempt to prove she couldn't find them, but I always wondered if maybe she was tipped off.

And that info is taken from Peter Kurth's book, where he writes that Captain Dassell wrote down everything he remembered from the hospital, sealed it in an envelope and gave it to the Duke of Leuchtenberg for safekeeping so that nobody could say afterwards that he changed his story in favor of AA. Or the opposite.

"A true lady of breeding" there

Once a liar.......

Oh here we go again, anyone who didn't accept her false claim was 'out to discredit her' in your view. Did you ever consider she was 'hostile' toward her because she could tell she was a faker who was using her parents for free room and board and trying to use this to her advantage in the emigre' community? That would be a very frustrating thing to sit there and watch in your own house.

And how would Gerda von Kleist know AA from Adam?

I don't think he 'recognized' her but was talking to her seeing if she was real or a fake since he didn't know the real AN that closely. Later, perhaps he was honestly fooled by the notebook, or perhaps he decided to join the charade camp for possible financial gain later.

Oh, you and your financial gains..... Dassell knew her well from the hospital and then being retained by the Tsarina as an adjutant to the girls. And how could he be 'fooled' by the notebook? It was HE who wrote down his memories.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

And what people would that be? As for the finger incident, it was witnessed by Shura and Captain Sablin from the Standart. Also Admiral Schilling's niece wrote a long letter to Frau Rathlef Keilmann telling her how she vividly remembered hearing about the accident of Anastasia's finger being crushed in a carriage door, and Chaplain Karl Berg also remembered hearing about it while staying in Tsarskoe Selo. As for Marie's "accident", what witnesses do you have?

Olga A.

I have never seen any mentioning of AV 'trailing one foot.' Sources, please.

I have never seen the term 'trailing one foot' before, but she did indeed do that, with a terrible limp, dragging one leg behind the other with difficulty, after her 1915 train accident. This is very well documented, including in her own book "Memories of the Russian Court."

Who mentioned Ernie?

You say he was arrested in Hesse for 'no reason' and then said 'someone' must have not liked his endorsement of AA. Praytell who else in Hesse were you referring to?

And how would Gerda von Kleist know AA from Adam?

I'm saying she could tell she was someone who was fake and pretending and using her family. I have noticed that among AA's wealthy backers, the older generation was generous with her, yet the younger members of the family found her a suspicious fake. Perhaps the older ones were more nostalgic for old Russia, or wanted to believe more, while the kids wore no such rose colored glasses and could tell a snotnosed fake when they saw her.

And that info is taken from Peter Kurth's book, where he writes that Captain Dassell wrote down everything he remembered from the hospital, sealed it in an envelope and gave it to the Duke of Leuchtenberg for safekeeping so that nobody could say afterwards that he changed his story in favor of AA. Or the opposite.

And how could he be 'fooled' by the notebook? It was HE who wrote down his memories

I'm saying AA could have read it or been allowed to see it. That's what I used to think, but now I know the Gerta Kliest story, it's more likely AA got her info from that earlier visit.

Oh, you and your financial gains.....

Yes, because if there were not a lure of a large sum of money and a lawsuit, AA would have gone the route of all other pretender.

 

[ChatNoir]

Olga A.

No, Olga was not a witness to anything, she just "remembered the story"

You say he was arrested in Hesse for 'no reason' and then said 'someone' must have not liked his endorsement of AA. Praytell who else in Hesse were you referring to?

I think you did the referral.

I'm saying she could tell she was someone who was fake and pretending and using her family. I have noticed that among AA's wealthy backers, the older generation was generous with her, yet the younger members of the family found her a suspicious fake. Perhaps the older ones were more nostalgic for old Russia, or wanted to believe more, while the kids wore no such rose colored glasses and could tell a snotnosed fake when they saw her.

And how do you then explain that Gerda's sister had "fond memories" of AA? And that among the Duke of Leuchtenberg's children, Dmitri was the only one who was almost hostile towards her?

I'm saying AA could have read it or been allowed to see it. That's what I used to think, but now I know the Gerta Kliest story, it's more likely AA got her info from that earlier visit.

But there was, according to Dassel, no earlier visit.

Yes, because if there were not a lure of a large sum of money and a lawsuit, AA would have gone the route of all other pretender.

And what route would that have been?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

No, Olga was not a witness to anything, she just "remembered the story"

Who remembered it correctly? Who knows? There are even differences on where it was supposed to have happened. I agree with what Olga said, that somebody vaguely remembered it but relayed it incorrectly to AA. She may not have been present when it happened, but she knew which niece had a hurt/scarred finger.

I think you did the referral.

Then please do tell me, who in Hesse would want to allegedly arrest a person 'for no reason' due to his support of AA? You tell me.For if you weren't referring to Ernie, what was your point?

And how do you then explain that Gerda's sister had "fond memories" of AA? And that among the Duke of Leuchtenberg's children, Dmitri was the only one who was almost hostile towards her?

So some kids enjoy a guest, others are disgusted to see a fake use their family.

But there was, according to Dassel, no earlier visit.

So again, it appears we are left with which person you choose to believe. But consider, if Dassel was 'in on it' of course he'd deny it, wouldn't he?

And what route would that have been?

Claim ended and not believed. However, since she had a lot of savvy backers and there was a promise of a huge payoff involved, and she had stories written about her that made her a media darling, she lasted a long time. It's like any other product, some are marketed better than others, so some become more popular.

 

[ChatNoir]

Who remembered it correctly? Who knows? There are even differences on where it was supposed to have happened. I agree with what Olga said, that somebody vaguely remembered it but relayed it incorrectly to AA. She may not have been present when it happened, but she knew which niece had a hurt/scarred finger.

Well Shura remembered the incident, but not whom it happened to. Captain Sablin was there and remembered well that Anastasia got her fingers crushed. And then there's this:

Dear Madam,
I was married in Russia, and lived first in Siberia and then in St. Petersburg up to 1905. My uncle, Admiral Baron Schilling, was chief of the administration of the Grand Duke Alexei Alexamdrovich, and lived om the Grand Duke's palace on the Moika. Both my cousins were ladies-in-waiting to the Empress, and I remember well how often we talked of the Tsar's children, and especially of Anastasia, as the most lively and also the naughtiest of the daughters.
One day, however, the following incident was related with the greatest horror, and I cannot understand how Shura, the governess, cannot or will not recall it, seeing that it made such an impression on me who had no connection with the family.
My cousin or my uncle told me with great concern that the children, after another mad romping game, had to go out for a drive. After they entered the carriage, the footman shut the door and crushed Anastasia's finger. Even to-day, as I write, I still feel the same shudder as I felt when I heard it then, so that I have not forgotten it and still have a clear memory of it.
I ofen asked how the finger was healing, being interested, partly as a doctor's wife, in whether the finger would have to come off or not. But I was also anxious about the poor child who had to suffer so much. It was a long time before the hand healed.
Unfortunately, I cannot give you any address to which you could write to my relations for further information, for the Revolution has scatterd us. But if you want to know anything more from me, I am entirely at your disposal.
(signed) G. B.

Then please do tell me, who in Hesse would want to allegedly arrest a person 'for no reason' due to his support of AA? You tell me.For if you weren't referring to Ernie, what was your point?

I think you have implied that Ernie was the responsible one.

So again, it appears we are left with which person you choose to believe. But consider, if Dassel was 'in on it' of course he'd deny it, wouldn't he?

Yes, I prefer to believe those who do not tell lies and do not decline taking the oath in court.

Claim ended and not believed. However, since she had a lot of savvy backers and there was a promise of a huge payoff involved, and she had stories written about her that made her a media darling, she lasted a long time. It's like any other product, some are marketed better than others, so some become more popular.

And who were these "savvy backers"? And where was the promise of the "huge payoff", and to whom? And how could she be a "media darling" with books like La Fausse Anastasie and the articles from Darmstadt and Gilliard appearing in the papers? What about three verdicts against her? What about the Romanovs all fighting her? Backing, indeed!

 

[tsarskoe]

AA DID say that Sydney Gibbes limped. Quote from AA after meeting with Syndey Gibbes: "He (Gibbes) had a limping leg. He looked very pleasant in one way. This man was never limping. I never believe that that was Mr. Gibbes...NEVER." (Welch, 220) When she said that he looked very pleasant in one way I am assuming this is a throw back to her 1920's statement when she said that he part of his body was deformed.

And yes, the Tsar did have a tattoo and a large one at that. Simply Google "Tsar Nicholas tattoo".

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Well Shura remembered the incident, but not whom it happened to. Captain Sablin was there and remembered well that Anastasia got her fingers crushed. And then there's this:

Dear Madam,
I was married in Russia, and lived first in Siberia and then in St. Petersburg up to 1905. My uncle, Admiral Baron Schilling, was chief of the administration of the Grand Duke Alexei Alexamdrovich, and lived om the Grand Duke's palace on the Moika. Both my cousins were ladies-in-waiting to the Empress, and I remember well how often we talked of the Tsar's children, and especially of Anastasia, as the most lively and also the naughtiest of the daughters.
One day, however, the following incident was related with the greatest horror, and I cannot understand how Shura, the governess, cannot or will not recall it, seeing that it made such an impression on me who had no connection with the family.
My cousin or my uncle told me with great concern that the children, after another mad romping game, had to go out for a drive. After they entered the carriage, the footman shut the door and crushed Anastasia's finger. Even to-day, as I write, I still feel the same shudder as I felt when I heard it then, so that I have not forgotten it and still have a clear memory of it.
I ofen asked how the finger was healing, being interested, partly as a doctor's wife, in whether the finger would have to come off or not. But I was also anxious about the poor child who had to suffer so much. It was a long time before the hand healed.
Unfortunately, I cannot give you any address to which you could write to my relations for further information, for the Revolution has scatterd us. But if you want to know anything more from me, I am entirely at your disposal.
(signed) G. B.

Carriage? No, Olga said it was on the trainand note Olga says nothing of not being present, YOU added that part)

…The mistakes she made could not be all attributed to lapses of memory. For instance, she had a scar on one of her fingers and she kept telling everybody that it had been crushed because of a footman shutting the door of a landau too quickly. And at once I remembered the incident. It was Marie, her elder sister, who got her hand hurt rather badly, and it did not happen in a carriage but on board the imperial train. Obviously someone, having heard something of the incident, had passed a garbled version of it to Mrs Anderson.

I think you have implied that Ernie was the responsible one.

You have not answered my question. If you did not mean Ernie was the person in Hesse who had him arrested, what was your point?

To refresh your memory, here is exactly what you posted:

Later, in 1927, when Dassel passed through Hesse on his travels, he was arrested for no reason. Somebody must have been very, very nervous about his identification of AA.

Yes, I prefer to believe those who do not tell lies and do not decline taking the oath in court.

You mean like AA, who refused to testify AT ALL because she knew she'd be lying? (and don't hand me that 'my father owns the courts' excuse) Isn't it true that MOST of the people on BOTH sides didn't take an oath, since, unlike in the US, it's NOT REQUIRED?

And who were these "savvy backers"? And where was the promise of the "huge payoff", and to whom? And how could she be a "media darling" with books like La Fausse Anastasie and the articles from Darmstadt and Gilliard appearing in the papers? What about three verdicts against her? What about the Romanovs all fighting her? Backing, indeed!

Botkin was the most savvy backer of all, though not the only. Yes, she was a media darling from the time Rathlef's stories hit the paper and Anastasia cigarettes and candy came on the market, and a cabaret singer dedicated a song to her and her story. Gleb's books romaticizing the story added to it, coming to America exploded it, and the Ingrid Bergman movie sealed it.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

AA DID say that Sydney Gibbes limped. Quote from AA after meeting with Syndey Gibbes: "He (Gibbes) had a limping leg. He looked very pleasant in one way. This man was never limping. I never believe that that was Mr. Gibbes...NEVER." (Welch, 220) When she said that he looked very pleasant in one way I am assuming this is a throw back to her 1920's statement when she said that he part of his body was deformed.

So she tried to say the man wasn't really Gibbes but faking? That's typical, since he openly denounced her. She always tried to damage the reps of those who denied her by trying to trash them with horrible stories, such as Bux being a 'traitor', Ernie committing 'treason', Felix Y. trying to kill her, etc. In that way, she was a very vile person, and it makes me lose any sympathy for her every time I think if it.

 

[ChatNoir]

Carriage? No, Olga said it was on the trainand note Olga says nothing of not being present, YOU added that part)

No, I did not add that part, I just said that she did not witness it, she just 'remembered the story'. Still, she said nothing about it until years later. And according to Captain Sablin, Shura Gilliard, Karl Berg and Admiral Schilling's niece, Anastasia got her fingers damaged in a carriage door, the same story that AA told.

You have not answered my question. If you did not mean Ernie was the person in Hesse who had him arrested, what was your point?

My point was to show that someone was very eager to confiscate Dassel's pamphlet, and somebody in Hesse had him arrested. And right away you think of Uncle Ernie. Good job.

You mean like AA, who refused to testify AT ALL because she knew she'd be lying? (and don't hand me that 'my father owns the courts' excuse) Isn't it true that MOST of the people on BOTH sides didn't take an oath, since, unlike in the US, it's NOT REQUIRED?

I don't think AA refused to testify, she was heard by the judge at Unterlengenhart. As for the oath, it is up to the judge to decide whether or not it is required. Both Doris Wingender and Gerda Kleist were asked to take the oath, but both declined. On the other side, Captain Dassel insisted in taking the oath.

Botkin was the most savvy backer of all, though not the only.

Botkin could only back her with his writings, he had not a penny to give to her cause. He came on the scene in 1927, and by the end of the year, they had already had a falling out, and were not to speak to each other until 1938.

Yes, she was a media darling from the time Rathlef's stories hit the paper and Anastasia cigarettes and candy came on the market, and a cabaret singer dedicated a song to her and her story. Gleb's books romaticizing the story added to it, coming to America exploded it, and the Ingrid Bergman movie sealed it.

And with all that exposure, photos and all, positive or negative, nobody ever came forward and said: Oh, there is Franzisca, I remember her from school/the factory/the restaurant/the hospital etc etc. The Bergman movie only confused the public by putting a happy ending on the story and had nothing to do with the real world of AA. Coming to America did not explode the story, it imploded in Europe, and therefore Gilliard's book quickly went out of print. Nobody was interested anymore. The interest did not peak again until the trial was well underway in the 50's.

 

[ChatNoir]

AA DID say that Sydney Gibbes limped. Quote from AA after meeting with Syndey Gibbes: "He (Gibbes) had a limping leg. He looked very pleasant in one way. This man was never limping. I never believe that that was Mr. Gibbes...NEVER." (Welch, 220) When she said that he looked very pleasant in one way I am assuming this is a throw back to her 1920's statement when she said that he part of his body was deformed.

I have to look up Welch again about this.

And yes, the Tsar did have a tattoo and a large one at that. Simply Google "Tsar Nicholas tattoo".

Then where was it? I just showed you a photo of his bare arms?

 

[Russophile]

Then where was it? I just showed you a photo of his bare arms?

Copy that. I just googled it and for a myriad of things from Hilary Clinton to old pictures of the Tsar but no tattoo.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I was just reading Welch's page 220 as mentioned by tsarskoe and it is worse than I thought! Like I said she always tried to damage the reps of those who denied her by making up horrible accusations on them. In addition to denying he was the real Gibbes, she also claimed he had stolen from the family and pestered his family for years for the return of the allegedly stolen items (page 221)

Back to page 220:

Gibbes (now an Orthodox Priest 'Father Nicholas') spent 3 days with her in Paris. At first Anna had insisted everyone wear surgical masks; when this proved impossible, she elected to hide her face behind a newspaper. When Father Nicholas (Gibbes) at last caught sight of her face, he declared she bore no resemblance to Anastasia. He said she also failed to recognize photos he had brought of her childhood rooms. He later famously declared 'if that's Anastasia, I'm a Chinaman.'

Of course, this denial led, as it had with so many others, to the nasty accuastions and character assassination against him.

Then Gleb tried to back her up by saying Gibbes was deformed, something no other person who knew him had ever said, that he limped or 'dragged one leg', and that 'he had defects in his physical build...always held his hed to one side..in general he gave the impression of a physically defective person.." (Welch pp. 220-221)

 

[Anna was Franziska]

And with all that exposure, photos and all, positive or negative, nobody ever came forward and said: Oh, there is Franzisca, I remember her from school/the factory/the restaurant/the hospital etc etc.

As I've said before, this is self defeating of you to say, since no one ever came forward yelling 'there's ANASTASIA!' either! Anastasia was much more famous, yet unless the suggestion was made that was who she was, no one ever said a thing!

The Bergman movie only confused the public by putting a happy ending on the story and had nothing to do with the real world of AA.

Berenberg-Gossler said the movie, coming to fame at the same time as his court case against AA, (he was an opposing lawyer in the 50's) did much to damage his case in the eyes of the public, who wanted to believe the fairy story that AA was a lost princess and considered those trying to say she wasn't to be villains. He said:


During Anderson's German court cases the press were always more interested in reporting her side of the story then the opposing benches less glamorous perspective, editors often pulled journalists after reporting testimony delivered by her side and ignored the rebuttal, resulting in the public seldom getting a complete picture.
The case coincided with the release of Twentieth Century Fox's box office hit Anastasia staring Ingrid Bergman, for which she won the Best Actress Oscar in 1956. The grossly inaccurate movie helped legitimize Anderson's claims in the court of public opinion and made the lives of the Von Berenberg-Gossler's difficult, the court case had a large following in German tabloids and many readers who saw the movie thought it was a true story.

His opposition of her claim was so unpopular, he even recieved death threats, which frightened his family:

Dr. Von Berenberg-Gossler received nasty letters even death threats, his wife reproached by acquaintances for his part in a perceived injustice. At the height of the court drama, after Von Berenberg-Gossler's victorious judgment before the Higher Regional Court, his worried son asked his mother to buy his father a bullet proof vest for Christmas just in case an irate Anderson fan took a shot at him.


Remembering Anna Anderson (Part II)

Coming to America did not explode the story,

With Gleb's publicity and the backing of Rachmaninoff, they were met on their arrival by numerous reporters, and she was fed to the wealthy NY society, who didn't know any better, as the lost Grand Duchess. (See Chapter 4 of Welch's "A Romanov Fantasy", especially pages 143, and 146-149)

it imploded in Europe, and therefore Gilliard's book quickly went out of print. Nobody was interested anymore.

This, along with the ID of her as FS, was the main reason he knew he had to get her out of Europe. It was a shrewd plan, and it worked.

The interest did not peak again until the trial was well underway in the 50's.

This is true, and it was the movie that was a big cause of it.

AA's fame in the 20's thanks to Rathlef's stories, with the cigarettes, candy, and song, can be seen on page 131 of Welch's book.

 

[ChatNoir]

As I've said before, this is self defeating of you to say, since no one ever came forward yelling 'there's ANASTASIA!' either! Anastasia was much more famous, yet unless the suggestion was made that was who she was, no one ever said a thing!

Famous by nice, retouched publicity photos, yes. But very, very few people really knew her.

Berenberg-Gossler said the movie, coming to fame at the same time as his court case against AA, (he was an opposing lawyer in the 50's) did much to damage his case in the eyes of the public, who wanted to believe the fairy story that AA was a lost princess and considered those trying to say she wasn't to be villains. He said:


During Anderson's German court cases the press were always more interested in reporting her side of the story then the opposing benches less glamorous perspective, editors often pulled journalists after reporting testimony delivered by her side and ignored the rebuttal, resulting in the public seldom getting a complete picture.
The case coincided with the release of Twentieth Century Fox's box office hit Anastasia staring Ingrid Bergman, for which she won the Best Actress Oscar in 1956. The grossly inaccurate movie helped legitimize Anderson's claims in the court of public opinion and made the lives of the Von Berenberg-Gossler's difficult, the court case had a large following in German tabloids and many readers who saw the movie thought it was a true story.

His opposition of her claim was so unpopular, he even recieved death threats, which frightened his family:

Dr. Von Berenberg-Gossler received nasty letters even death threats, his wife reproached by acquaintances for his part in a perceived injustice. At the height of the court drama, after Von Berenberg-Gossler's victorious judgment before the Higher Regional Court, his worried son asked his mother to buy his father a bullet proof vest for Christmas just in case an irate Anderson fan took a shot at him.

Of course he would complain about any support for the person he was trying to defeat. That should be a no-brainer.


Remembering Anna Anderson (Part II)

With Gleb's publicity and the backing of Rachmaninoff, they were met on their arrival by numerous reporters, and she was fed to the wealthy NY society, who didn't know any better, as the lost Grand Duchess. (See Chapter 4 of Welch's "A Romanov Fantasy", especially pages 143, and 146-149)

And with the quick mind of Gleb and the help of Rachmaninoff's manager, they managed to disappear with AA before the press got hold of her.

This, along with the ID of her as FS, was the main reason he knew he had to get her out of Europe. It was a shrewd plan, and it worked.

ID of her as FS? Dream on. She was never ID'd as FS, that's why she could obtain a passport, a visa and go to USA as Anastasia Chaikowski.

This is true, and it was the movie that was a big cause of it.

AA's fame in the 20's thanks to Rathlef's stories, with the cigarettes, candy, and song, can be seen on page 131 of Welch's book.

I think this has all been covered in Kurth's book where miss Welch seems to have gotten most of her information.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Famous by nice, retouched publicity photos, yes.

The Romanovs were camera bugs. The majority of their pics are candid.

But very, very few people really knew her.

You got this from me, when I said that is why we have a lack of real witnesses- I always tell you this when you list people who said she was AN who had never met the real AN, or only met her once as a little kid, and were no judge of her. So not many people knew the real AN, but just think, FS was even far less famous!

ID of her as FS? Dream on. She was never ID'd as FS,

You're telling me to 'dream on?' YOU need to 'dream on' that AA was not FS, because she was.

 

[ChatNoir]

The Romanovs were camera bugs. The majority of their pics are candid.

Yes, and how many of those pictures were floating around in the '20s for the general public to see?

You got this from me,

No, I did not get that from you, I got that from the general story about the IF.

when I said that is why we have a lack of real witnesses- I always tell you this when you list people who said she was AN who had never met the real AN, or only met her once as a little kid, and were no judge of her.

Are you including the Botkins, Lili Dehn, Alex Volkov, Felix Dassel, Grand Duchess Olga, Pierre Gilliard, Shura Gilliard, Grand Duke Andrew and Zinaida Tolstoi on that list?

So not many people knew the real AN, but just think, FS was even far less famous!

Far less famous, yes. But she had a large family, she went to school with other kids, she worked in a restaurant, a bottle washing factory and an ammunition factory. She was in and out of sanatoria and must have made some friends in Berlin. But in spite of all this exposure to other people, nobody came forward when AA's photo was plastered all over the press. Only three nurses from an asylum came forward when FS's photo hit the Nacthausgabe, testifying to the fact that she had been a patient of theirs for five years.

You're telling me to 'dream on?' YOU need to 'dream on' that AA was not FS, because she was.

So far, I have seen no proof.

 

[ChatNoir]

I was just reading Welch's page 220 as mentioned by tsarskoe and it is worse than I thought! Like I said she always tried to damage the reps of those who denied her by making up horrible accusations on them. In addition to denying he was the real Gibbes, she also claimed he had stolen from the family and pestered his family for years for the return of the allegedly stolen items (page 221)

And where does Welch get this information from? She does not say. And what members of Gibbes family is she talking about? And how did AA get their names and addresses so that she could pester them? Sounds like fiction to me.

Gibbes (now an Orthodox Priest 'Father Nicholas') spent 3 days with her in Paris. At first Anna had insisted everyone wear surgical masks; when this proved impossible, she elected to hide her face behind a newspaper. When Father Nicholas (Gibbes) at last caught sight of her face, he declared she bore no resemblance to Anastasia. He said she also failed to recognize photos he had brought of her childhood rooms. He later famously declared 'if that's Anastasia, I'm a Chinaman.'

It was actually 2 days. And the two did not recognize each other, too much time had passed. Or could it be that Gibbes just stuck to his earlier statement denouncing AA that was used for publication in La Fausse Anastasie? As for the photos, we have been through that story with Olga and Gilliard.

Of course, this denial led, as it had with so many others, to the nasty accuastions and character assassination against him.

What character assasination?

Then Gleb tried to back her up by saying Gibbes was deformed, something no other person who knew him had ever said, that he limped or 'dragged one leg', and that 'he had defects in his physical build...always held his hed to one side..in general he gave the impression of a physically defective person.." (Welch pp. 220-221)

Remember, Gleb Botkin also remembered Gibbes from the old days. Gibbes defended his walk and stated that he "had both his legs". I don't think anyone ever questioned that.

 

[tian]

Copy that. I just googled it and for a myriad of things from Hilary Clinton to old pictures of the Tsar but no tattoo.

Go to Alexander Palace forum. There is a topic "Nicky's Tattoo?", page 7, reply #90. There are pictures.

 

[Warren]

I've removed some posts. It's pointless for members to get exasperated and start having digs at each other. People will choose to believe what they want to believe and no-one can be coerced into accepting another's point of view, least of all by this endlessly repetitive argument.

It's not the end of the world if some believe that Anna Anderson was Anastasia while some believe with equal certainty that she wasn't. Discuss by all means, but please leave out the personal sniping as it makes the atmosphere of the thread very unpleasant.

thanks,
Warren
Russian Forums moderator

 

[Menarue]

Exasperated, that is the exact word. Thanks Warren for deleting I would have regretted it later. I am not that interested in a subject which for me has been fully explained by forensics I was just trying to defend someone who is obviously far more interested in this subject than I have become.
Delete this too if you like.
Thanks again.......

 

[Warren]

Menarue, you were merely voicing what other members have been saying to the Mods about the tone of this thread, although perhaps less diplomatically.