Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

The letter was actually not written by them, but by an official. Irene's signed statement has been burnt to a crisp.

Then how did Kurth quote part of it for a book written years later?

Plus another letter from Hemmelmark to Kleist demanding back all material relating to Princess Irene's involvement with AA.

Of course they wanted out of it completely.

(Footnote from Kurth's book):

What is the source quoted in the footnote? For the whole thing? Sounds very weird to me. Especially the part involving Andrew, who Olga said had 'vile motives', claiming an alleged dying confession of an 87 year old woman. Just give this one up, Chat, Irene didn't believe AA was AN, unless she went crazy in her old age. I know a lady that age who's convinced a man lives in her wall and tries to kill her, and tells stories of her dead brother (still alive) coming to take her places she's never been. Sounds like more rumors and guesses.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Then how did Kurth quote part of it for a book written years later?

Remember, it was reproduced in False Anastasia.

Of course they wanted out of it completely.

I think that is what I am trying to tell you.

What is the source quoted in the footnote?

Lori von Oertzen's testimony in Hamburg, as stated in the footnote.

For the whole thing? Sounds very weird to me. Especially the part involving Andrew, who Olga said had 'vile motives', claiming an alleged dying confession of an 87 year old woman.

Remember, it was Olga who gave Andrew the green light to undertake an investigation. Before granting Andrew the permission to investigate the affair, however, Olga added frankly: "You think I may be wrong. Such mistakes can of course happen. One way or the other it is ghastly. (Kurth)

In any Just give this one up, Chat, Irene didn't believe AA was AN, unless she went crazy in her old age. I know a lady that age who's convinced a man lives in her wall and tries to kill her, and tells stories of her dead brother (still alive) coming to take her places she's never been. Sounds like more rumors and guesses.

I go with the testimonies, the statements and the letters, and now we have several people leading us to the same conclusion. (And I would be grateful for no more stories about people you know.)

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Remember, it was reproduced in False Anastasia.

But you said everything in that book was fake and couldn't be proven since he burned his stuff! I bet Irene had a copy, and the lawyers in the case.

Lori von Oertzen's testimony in Hamburg, as stated in the footnote.

We'll never know if it's right or not, it contradicts everything said by Irene herself.

I am not matching Olga quotes again.

I go with the testimonies, the statements and the letters, and now we have several people leading us to the same conclusion.

Then why do you ignore Irene's own testimony for gossip of others?

[PrinceOfCanada]

...how many different threads are you going to do this in?

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfCanada

...how many different threads are you going to do this in?

Every single one, as long as Chat's here. I know you may think it odd I blame him when I am guilty too, but I have a streak of the Marty McFly being called chicken in me, and when challenged I can't back down. However, I honestly HATE that EVERY SINGLE AA THREAD ends up EXACTLY ALIKE not only here but on other forums. No one is ever able to find anything or remember what was in each thread because they are all the same! The poster Chat will keep dragging up the same old quotes I have answered over and over, many times in the same thread! Check the "AA's claim" thread for proof of this. I tried to separate the issues by starting new threads, hoping each one can stick only to its particular topic and leave the redundant stuff in the generic 'claim' thread, but sure enough both of them quickly degraded into yet another yes or no, he said she said display of all the same old quotes and topics. It really does get on my nerves, and noticing from small number of other participants, I can imagine most other people don't want to bother with this discussion if it stays the way it's been going.

My suggestion is if the mods could please have each thread be about a specific topic, such as this one being just the interviews, etc., and anyone- even me- going off topic be told so, and have their post moved or removed. Even if the belief in AA will never end, the same old mess surrounding it can stop.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

But you said everything in that book was fake and couldn't be proven since he burned his stuff! I bet Irene had a copy, and the lawyers in the case.

No, I did not say everything in his book was fake. Please read my posts before you quote me.

We'll never know if it's right or not, it contradicts everything said by Irene herself.

That's what I am trying to tell you.

I am not matching Olga quotes again.

No need to, this one is in writing.

Then why do you ignore Irene's own testimony for gossip of others?

I do not ignore her testimony, I just question it like I do with almost everything. And we are not talking gossip here, we are talking statements, legal testimony and signed letters.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Every single one, as long as Chat's here. I know you may think it odd I blame him when I am guilty too, but I have a streak of the Marty McFly being called chicken in me, and when challenged I can't back down. However, I honestly HATE that EVERY SINGLE AA THREAD ends up EXACTLY ALIKE not only here but on other forums. No one is ever able to find anything or remember what was in each thread because they are all the same!

Funny, I have no problems remembering and finding what I need.

The poster Chat will keep dragging up the same old quotes I have answered over and over, many times in the same thread!

The only problem is, you have not "answered" them, just denied them because they don't seem to go with your point of view. And telling me that the Easter Bunny is my mother just because you don't agree with my view, is not the best way of debating.

Check the "AA's claim" thread for proof of this. I tried to separate the issues by starting new threads, hoping each one can stick only to its particular topic and leave the redundant stuff in the generic 'claim' thread, but sure enough both of them quickly degraded into yet another yes or no, he said she said display of all the same old quotes and topics. It really does get on my nerves, and noticing from small number of other participants, I can imagine most other people don't want to bother with this discussion if it stays the way it's been going.

I think the lack of participants mostly is due to the general public's ignorance of the facts in this case.

My suggestion is if the mods could please have each thread be about a specific topic, such as this one being just the interviews, etc., and anyone- even me- going off topic be told so, and have their post moved or removed. Even if the belief in AA will never end, the same old mess surrounding it can stop.

I may be wrong, but you seem to be on a quest here to have the world believe what you do.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

I do not ignore her testimony, I just question it like I do with almost everything. And we are not talking gossip here, we are talking statements, legal testimony and signed letters.

Her statement was signed, yet you choose to believe others and their second or third hand comments about her than herself. You just don't like her statement because it's a flat denial of AA by someone who knew AN well.

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Funny, I have no problems remembering and finding what I need.

Funny you don't remember posting the same stuff over and over in the same thread, and/or in the one right under it.

The only problem is, you have not "answered" them, just denied them because they don't seem to go with your point of view. And telling me that the Easter Bunny is my mother just because you don't agree with my view, is not the best way of debating.

Even when I give you quotes and documented evidence what good does it do, everyone is just a liar, or someone else is the one who's right and anyone who you don't want to hear is wrong (like poor Irene, see how you believe others over her!)

I think the lack of participants mostly is due to the general public's ignorance of the facts in this case.

I think it's because they get annoyed by the redundancy and bickering.

What 'facts' do you mean, the he said she said he thought she heard him say and told her that's suddenly a 'fact' because it's a footnote? All the time you deny the 'facts' of the DNA?

I may be wrong, but you seem to be on a quest here to have the world believe what you do.

And you aren't?

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by Penny Royalty

Your debacle has caught my eye and interest in that the parties involved persuade an accumulation of factual hearsay that has a bases in truth. The final result in so many speculations leave one both wondering and interested in actuality. I thought I read last night here a post by Menarue that either is not here or has been omitted. Maybe I'm crazy and I read the same argument between you in another topic but I think not. Your adamant rebuttals leave one inclined to find more about the intended discussion and it is another reason for visiting this forum. You impress me and it is nice to follow. Simply know that the truth is out there and I hope some resolution can be attained by camaraderie that strive to embolden and enlighten one to another so that we may live prosperously and in harmony. I find that here and I simply wanted to suggest that your portrayals are note worthy. Keep on deciphering this mystery that was at a time embedded with factual events. May the truth be told. Good day.

Menarue made this post in this thread

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...tml#post795265

but has also posted several times in the Anna Anderson's Claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia thread.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Her statement was signed, yet you choose to believe others and their second or third hand comments about her than herself. You just don't like her statement because it's a flat denial of AA by someone who knew AN well.

I am only telling you about all the evidence, not just a bit of it.

Even when I give you quotes and documented evidence what good does it do, everyone is just a liar, or someone else is the one who's right and anyone who you don't want to hear is wrong (like poor Irene, see how you believe others over her!)

You really have to stop this "everyone is a liar" thing. As for "poor Irene", do you remember who her brother was?

I think it's because they get annoyed by the redundancy and bickering.

They are not alone.

What 'facts' do you mean, the he said she said he thought she heard him say and told her that's suddenly a 'fact' because it's a footnote? All the time you deny the 'facts' of the DNA?

And sometimes the foonote happens to be a legal testimony. And I do not deny the DNA, I only question the source.
Maybe if you spent less time on trying to make me look bad, we could discuss more interesting things.

[Penny Royalty]

My sincere apology. I was mistaken upon reading this thread. Late last night I was reading what I thought was the same posters and same topic about the events of certain royals. Blindly I went into this topic thinking it was the same thread because you as writers were alike to that other thread. I thought it was the same with some doubt though. My mistake. It seemed odd. Thanks for the correction. I didn't look closer.
Edit. After looking closer I'm still wondering whether Menarue posted last night or not. Maybe I'm confused some.
Edit again. I was confused about the thread I was reading. Menarue's post was on another thread. I apologize for the mix up.

[ChatNoir]

Maybe it could be of interest to read a medical report on AA. This one is written by Dr. Lothar Nobel, House Doctor at the Mommsen Sanatorium, Berlin.

Mrs. Anastasia Chaikovski was in the Mommsen Sanatorium for nearly eight months, during which time I visited her daily, and I had the opportunity, unbeknown to the patient, to examine her mental condition; and I make the following report on her mentality during this period. Having regard to the object of the report, I have drafted it in terms which can be generally understood.
On entering the hospital, the patient was in a high fever. Her body was emaciated, her skin very pale, her expression sickly, and her features set. The physical state of the patient need not be considered in detail. I shall only mention the particulars obtained from the examination of the X-ray photograph.
The plate reveals shading on the left ethmoid bone; the left jaw cavity and sphenoid bone are shaded, the mastoid probably somewhat degenerated. There is a shaded place on the right auditory passage, various defects of the upper and lower jawbones, and some teeth are missing. It is doubtful whether any impression is shown on the roof of the skull.
It is not possible to obtain more accurate information from an examination of the X-ray plate, owing to the absence of check photographs.
When her temperature had fallen, it was possible to speak to Mrs. Chaikovski. The patient speaks with a typical foreign accent, which, most probably, is Russian, in well-chosen but unaffected words; she is friendly, polite, and amiable; she shows a distinct timidity and an uneasy reserve, especially as soon as she suspects any allusion in the questions of conversation to her past; she remains silent to questions of that kind and excuses her silence on the score of over-exertion and the pain in her arm. The information she gives is correct as to detail. There are no abnormalities in her movements, carriage, opinions and perceptions. Her disposition is variable, sometimes she is in a relatively good humour, and at others is melancholy. When asked for the reason, the patient says it is on account of the great pain in her arm, which does not allow her to rest and deprives her of her sleep at night.
She lies in bed with an anxious expression on her face, and declares that she desairs of any prospect of being cured, that she has lost the desire to live, and that it would be best for her to pass quietly into oblivion.
(continued)

[Anna was Franziska]

It's understandable that would happen since all the threads end up alike. The same thing would happen on AP, nobody could find a particular discussion, accused the mods of deleting it, and it was because it was in another one just like it. Sigh.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by Menarue

Exactly. Thank you Anna was Franzisca, those two articles are very interesting and give a clear account of the case from people who really knew.
After the DNA results I didn´t have to be convinced but this has just been an extra confirmation, the icing on the cake.

Thank you! That's what I thought when I found it too. With all this info along with the photos and especially the DNA, I can't understand why the AA myth still goes on.

[ChatNoir]

From her one can learn nothing of her past. On the contrary, she is at great pains to avoid all questions on this subject. Only gradually, as her health improves and the duration of her stay here lengthens, does the patient become more confidential and frank. She has never read books and papers here, and has written nothing. She has, however, followed with interest, when accounts of current events were read out to her.
To questions relating to her past she gives slow and hesitating answers, considers for a long time with a strained expression on her face, and finds difficulty in calling to mind the names of persons and places. Afther a very long time, she ceased completely to be suspicious of me, and, when occasion arose, she told me without hesitation about her early life; it is better to approach her by means of indirect questions, since, when direct questions are put to her, one always notices the anxious and searching expression on her face, and receives the reply: "I know no more, it is trying to me, I have forgotten everything, I am of no more use in the world because my memory has suffered so." Then again, she once told me, during the course of our converstaion, that it was terrible, when she had gone to such great trouble to forget all the horrible things which she had experienced, that somebody should come and revive everything, and make her so sad and despondent again. The patient, when she was feeling better, sometimes told those whom she knew well about her former life in Tsarskoe Selo, about childish pranks, about summer travels in the Crimea, about sea-voyages in the yacht Standard among the Finnish islands, the damage once suffered by the yacht, about her favourite dog, and also about the illness of her brother. Other things she spoke about were: her flight through Russia in a peasant wagon, the treatment of the injuries to ther head by means of wet applications, her stay in Rumania, the journey to Germany, her attempted suidcide through despair, the time spent by her in the various hospitals, and, finally, she reported certain facts relating to Dalldorf, which, so far as I could judge and was able to verify, were absolutely true.
(continued}

[ChatNoir]

She told me she was photographed in Dalldorf; she told me about a patient who died of tuberculosis, with exact details regarding the dates. To her great indignation another patient had eaten the food left by the one who had died, and she had also died later. The patient, however, denied that she had read books and had asked for journals and newspapers. Her manner of speech is, of course, absolutely free of all theatrical gesture, and is natural. It also happens that she herself forgets many things she has narrated, and, on my referring to them again, she wonders where I have learnt about them. The account of her former life is patchy; but, during the time she was under my observation, it has noticeably become more coherent, which is attributable to the improvement in her general well-being and to the healing of the wounds on the left elbow. The patchiness of her memory is also due in a large measure to the will to forget the terrible happenings in her past life, of which mention has already been made.
So far as her language is concerned, I have been assured that, formerly, when in the company of her parents, her brother, and her sisters, English was almost exclusively spoken, only when the teachers and the servants were present was the Russian language used. The patient, however, did not speak Russian. When asked the reason for this, she stated that she had experienced too much distress and misfortune in Russia that the language was not pleasing to her, and she did not wish to speak it. She was determined on this and would not speak Russian. She would follow a conversation in Russian between two other persons attentively, and, at times, give answers in German, and point out Russian words which were wrongly pronounced. Reading gave her a great deal of trouble, especially the formation of letters into words. After much deliberation, she was able to write "Anastasia."
Possibly the reason for her avoidance of Russian was because she was forbidden to speak it during her flight, and also because of her fear of being discovered; the fear of being found is reflected in her whole being, in her words, and in her remarks.
(continued)

[ChatNoir]

This, in my opinion, is the reason for her inaccessibility in the hospitals in which she had previously been and at the commencement of her stay in the Mommsen Sanatorium. It is for this reason that she has answered questions hardly at all or badly. In fear also lies the reason for her recurring melancholy moods, with their helplessness and apathy and lack of energy and even a longing for death. At such times the patient is inaccessible; she can scarcely be induced to eat, and is monosyllabic. She loses courage, has doubts about being cured, does not take the trouble to answer questions which require long consideration, but excuses herself on account of over-exertion and headache, which doubtless arises in consequence of her worry and despair and the pain in her arm. Her description of the events on her departure from the institution at Dalldorf is correct and was given promptly. As was also the account of her ailment, of the time she spent with different families and in hospitals, the names of the sisters, and particulars of the time spent in this sanatorium.
In conclusion, I would like to state that in my opionion there is no mental deficiency whatever. During this long period of observatrion, I have not noticed in the patient any sign of mental derangement nor any kind of outside influence or auto-suggestion. The memory has certainly suffered, possibly on account of the injuries to her head; the melancholy moods referred to above certainly do exist; but, in my opinion, these have no psycho-pathological significance. It can hardly be definitely decided how far the loss of memory is connected with the head injuries, since it is not possible accurately to ascertain the severity of the injuries. This form of disturbance of the memory is peculiar, and does not fall under any recognized category, particularly as it extends equally over the past as a whole. Only in relation to things which have occurred in the immediate past is her memory normal.
(continued)

[ChatNoir]

It is difficult to decide how far the will of the patient enters into consideration. It is clear that, on some days, she is better able to remember things and answer questions put to her; this also applies to statements made of her own accord.
I will now add a few remarks concerning the identification of the patient. Of course, there can, on my part, be no question of proof. However, it appears to me impossible that her recollections depend on suggestion, and that the knowledge of many insignificant details is to be attributed to anything other than to her own experiences. Further, it is hardly probable, psychologically, that anybody, who for some purpose or other is playing the part of another, would act as the patient is doing and show so little initiative in the realisation of her plans.
(Signed) Dr. Lothar Nobel.
Berlin, end of March, 1926

[Penny Royalty]

Very nice to read. I can feel for her through your descriptions and I enjoyed every bit of it. Thank you for sharing the say of those who were close to her. It makes me want to care for those in a position of ailment. Thanks for bringing us that. Very romantic.

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Of course, that's why it changes so much. Any cop will tell you the first sign of a liar is changing the story multiple times. .

And what about any doctor telling you people don't lie when they are under the influence of morphine? Whatever she said, it was not a deliberate lie.