Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[BeatrixFan]

AA ceased to be Orthodox in the late 1920s, when the Orthodox Church declared her a fraud. Make of this what you will, but her attitude to the Church was the same as her (ultimate) attitude toward the Romanov survivors. She rejected them all (should she not have had the right to do that? -- as a human being, I mean). I doubt that you, or I, or almost anyone would behave differently. pk

Oh I agree and understand. I was treated appallingly by the local parish priest because of my sexuality. It took me 4 years to find a gay friendly Catholic Church but even that has meant tiny little steps and I spent 4 years totally rejecting the Church because it rejected me so I'm a kindred spirit with AA on that front.

 

[plkbvt]

I believe that even at the time of her death the cremation caused some eyebrows to rise as it is really very uncommon with Russian Orthodox people. And I believe that it was done very quickly too, only a few hours after she died. Some believe that this path was chosen so no tests could be done on the body of Ms. Anderson.

OK -- let me tell this again (as I have done many times) -- she ceased to be Orthodox; she was not interested in it after 1928 or so; she felt that the Church as well as the Romanov family had betrayed her (as they did): "And what good were all Mama's prayers? She was so devout and she prayed constantly -- and even so disaster has befallen us." What!? -- was she to be denied the crisis of faith that any fool can have (and does)? It is terribly insulting (to her, not to me). It's like some of the German judges said in the early days: "Well, it's not possible that she would avoid the Russian language, because everyone knows that the Russian adheres so dearly to his heritage and background."

Bullfeathers! She was treated like a piece of dirt, and pride alone would have swung her away from romantic and sentimental notions about "Russia."

The decision for cremation she made herself in 1927 (and before you say "Franziska Schanzkowska," let me remind you that the same strictures against cremation existed at that time in the Catholic faith -- so, whoever she was, she was defying them all). It certainly had nothing to do with some fear she may have had about "DNA" tests, which didn't exist even at the time she died in 1984. I do believe she was worried about her corpse being poked at and molested on account of "the claim" -- but PLEASE!!! It was her own decision and she was committed to it. pk

 

[plkbvt]

So, what are the chances that a random piece of tissue taken from the Martha Jefferson hospital would have a 100% match with Karl Maucher though?

It was not 100% -- look it up. In the 14-15 years since those tests were done, moreover, it has been shown that 20 to 30 to 40 percent of modern "Europeans" can be shown to have the same profile. pk

 

[lexi4]

It was her own decision and she was committed to it. pk

And she absolutely had the right to make that decision.
Lexi

 

[ysbel]

OK guys, I had to step back as moderator and take out references to personalties here. It does not help the discussion and it would be extremely helpful if from now on, we can take the emotions out of this discussion and hopefully we can all learn a lot.

Please just stick to the facts of the case and leave your personal opinions (positive and negative) about other members out of the discussion. It doesn't advance your case.

ysbel
Russian forum moderator

 

[ysbel]

So, what are the chances that a random piece of tissue taken from the Martha Jefferson hospital would have a 100% match with Karl Maucher though?

It was not 100% -- look it up. In the 14-15 years since those tests were done, moreover, it has been shown that 20 to 30 to 40 percent of modern "Europeans" can be shown to have the same profile. pk

Thanks plkbvt, do you have a link to the findings that you can share with us?

 

[ysbel]

I've just deleted another post after the mod warning not to engage in personal fights here.

Personal fight between members will not be tolerated.

The rest of us don't want a ringside seat in a personal fight.

This is the last warning I will make of this kind.

ysbel
Russian forums moderator

 

[Marengo]

Thank you for informing me about Ms. Andersons history with the Orthodox church, I was not aware she turned her back to it in the 20-ties already. The catholic and the protestant churches were against cremation in those days too and some protestant branches still are today indeed.

That she chose to be cremated quickly after her death to prevent people rom doing all kinds of tests on her is understandable too, but still it feeds the rumours that she had something to hide, that she was an impostor and such.

But again, what do all these theories, clues, strange stories etc. matter now? We have had scientific evidence and the real body of Anastasia has been found near Jekatherineburg. So how sympathetic, charming, etc. Ms. Anderson was, it wouldn't be very logical to keep believing that she was Grand Duchess Anastasia.

OK -- let me tell this again (as I have done many times) -- she ceased to be Orthodox; she was not interested in it after 1928 or so; she felt that the Church as well as the Romanov family had betrayed her (as they did): "And what good were all Mama's prayers? She was so devout and she prayed constantly -- and even so disaster has befallen us." What!? -- was she to be denied the crisis of faith that any fool can have (and does)? It is terribly insulting (to her, not to me). It's like some of the German judges said in the early days: "Well, it's not possible that she would avoid the Russian language, because everyone knows that the Russian adheres so dearly to his heritage and background."

Bullfeathers! She was treated like a piece of dirt, and pride alone would have swung her away from romantic and sentimental notions about "Russia."

The decision for cremation she made herself in 1927 (and before you say "Franziska Schanzkowska," let me remind you that the same strictures against cremation existed at that time in the Catholic faith -- so, whoever she was, she was defying them all). It certainly had nothing to do with some fear she may have had about "DNA" tests, which didn't exist even at the time she died in 1984. I do believe she was worried about her corpse being poked at and molested on account of "the claim" -- but PLEASE!!! It was her own decision and she was committed to it. pk

 

[ysbel]

The quote feature got messed up when you responded to me so I'll respond to what I can figure out that you wrote:

But it is different, precisely because of the person AA claimed to be. Don't give me Bellevue and mental wards and "homeless" psychotics -- she had nothing to do with that, as every doctor who ever saw her, right up to her death, could and did attest ....

It doesn't make sense to claim that Anna Anderson's case is different because of who she claimed to be.Despite all the claims, everybody's DNA works on the same principles and the tests should be equally reliable no matter who was the subject of the test-whether it was Anastasia or Franziska Schanzkowska or the homeless man down the street from Bellevue.

Despite what Anna Anderson later claimed to be, she was originally found as an unidentified woman in the area of Berlin with amnesia which is not that different situation than some of the homeless people that get found at Bellevue. There is a process for identifying unknown persons as she originally was known as 'Fraeulein Unbekannt' and while it doesn't work 100%, there is no reason to think that it cannot work on Anna Anderson in the same way that it works on thousands of other people.

If people stopped seeing this case as so special just because of who Anna Anderson claimed to be and just looked at it as another missing person report, the mystery would solve itself. Anna Anderson may have been extremely hurt by others in her lifetime and have great humanity regardless of whether she was Anastasia or Franziska Schanzkowska and she may have sincerely believed she was Anastasia and made a very convincing presentation to all those around her. But that doesn't necessarily mean that she WAS Anastasia.

 

[Russophile]

No, it doesn't.

 

[BorisRom]

Cinderella’s glass slippers

Once again:
Anna Anderson and GD Anastasia: Cinderella’s glass slippers.
Due to these discussions and due to conversation on this theme with Peter Kurth (I thank you so much, Peter!), I have decided to formulate this theme more precisely now:

1. GD Anastasia had CONGENITAL “Hallux Valgus” (bunions).
The identity of the congenital deformity of GD Anastasia's feet, which was very pronounced, is not only visible in photographs of the young grand duchess, but was confirmed even by those close to ANR who did NOT believe in AA's identity (for instance, the tsar's
younger sister GD Olga Alexandrovna – and she well knew the imperial children since their birth). It *was* congenital, and it was not caused by anything else. The nurse-maid (of little Anastasia) Shura Tegleva confirmed Anastasia’s congenital bunions too.

2. Anna Anderson had CONGENITAL hallux valgus (bunions) too.
Except of this diagnosis of German doctors (in Dalldorf, 1920), the diagnosis "the congenital “Hallux Valgus" was put also by the Russian doctor Sergey Mihajlovich Rudnev in St.Maria's clinic in the summer of 1925 (AA was very hardly sick of a tubercular infection):
«On her right foot I have noticed strong deformation, OBVIOUSLY, CONGENITAL: the big finger bend to the right, forming a tumour». Hallux Valgus was on her both feet. (Peter Kurth's book [Anastasia. The riddle of Anna Anderson], in Russian, p.99). Doctor Rudnev has cured and has rescued her life in 1925. AA named him «my kind Russian professor who has rescued my life».

3. On July, 27, 1925 to Berlin the spouses Gillard have arrived. Once again: Shura Gillard-Tegleva was the nurse-maid of GD Anastasia in Russia. They have visited very much sick AA in clinic. Shura has asked to show the feet of the patient. The blanket has been cast cautiously away, Shura has exclaimed:
«With [Anastasia] it was the same as here: the right foot was worse than the left» (Peter Kurth."Anastasia. The riddle of Anna Anderson", in Russian, p.121)
***
Now, the statistics data of “Hallux Valgus” (bunions):
-- the "hallux valgus" (HV) has 0,95 % from number of the surveyed women;
-- the first degree of the HV has 89 % from them (= 0,85% from the surveyed women );
-- the third degree of the HV has 1,6 % from them (= 0,0152% from the surveyed women or 1: 6580 );
-- the statistics of a congenital case «hallux valgus» makes (in modern Russia) 8:142 000000, or, approximately, 1:17 750 000!
We can assume the statistics data of a congenital case «hallux valgus» in former Russia did not differ too strongly (let even in some times, 1: 10 000 000). Thus the case of “AA was not ANR” has the probability from 1:10 millions to 1:17 millions.
In addition:
The citation from article about congenital “hallux valgus” of AA (“Gone with the wind”, L-A newspaper "Panorama", February, 2007):
“As one of the orthopedists (advising me) has expressed: «It is easier to find two girls of one age with identical FINGER PRINTS, than with attributes CONGENITAL hallux valgus”
***
Thus, I think (I hope , very rare congenital deformation of feet "hallux valgus" of AA and ANR puts a fat point in fierce disputes of supporters and opponents of Anna Anderson.
The scientific medical statistics in this case is in 3000 times of more reliability (authentic), than DNA-researches and much more preferable in sense of possibility of mistakes and falsification. Hence, thereof, the burden of an explanation of discrepancy of DNA-tests should lie down completely on the opponents Anna Anderson. They should find a mistake or traces of falsification. Supporters of Anna Anderson can engage in more important affairs now: in particular, to find-out (investigation) of mess with remains of Imperial family in Russia.

Regards
Boris

P.S. Of course, I can suppose many opponents (opponents of Anna Anderson) will keep their former opinion, but henceforth they should demonstratively deny down the stated above.
P.P.S. ... and they should deny Peter Kurth's book on former - the main thing!

 

[Anna was Franziska]

But again, what do all these theories, clues, strange stories etc. matter now? We have had scientific evidence and the real body of Anastasia has been found near Jekatherineburg. So how sympathetic, charming, etc. Ms. Anderson was, it wouldn't be very logical to keep believing that she was Grand Duchess Anastasia.

That's right. After the DNA proved her to be an imposter, none of the old 'what about the shoes' 'what about what so n so said' matter anymore. We have our answer, though it may not be what some had hoped for. Until somebody can prove that the sample was switched or the results tampered with (both frequent accusations from Anderson's backers) or at least give some reasonable proof for such a theory other than simply a desire for her to be Anastasia, the results stand as evidence. As someone else mentioned, it wasn't just a mismatch (and remember, ONE mismatch is all it takes, so no need to compare more, she's already had five) for the royal family (it was Prince Phillip's DNA that was used) it also was a match for the Schanzkowska family(no mismatches). Those 1920's detectives turned out to have been right all along!


Looking at clear, face forward pictures, not disguised by dark shadows or convenient props, it's clear to me- even without DNA- that AA was FS. The facial shape, bone structure and features match. Anderson (Schanzkowska) had a flat, squared chin, a wide mouth and thick, shapeless lips. Anastasia had a long, rounded chin and a small mouth with thin lips.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

It was not 100% -- look it up.

It was 99.9%, which is as much as you can get. It doesn't go to 100. You can have a 100% exclusion (as AA's sample did for the royal family) but as far as proving identity, it doesn't go any higher than 99.9% for anyone.

Some of those 'who's the baby's daddy' shows will have results that come back that the father got only 96% or 98% proof of paternity, but still didn't question the results. (even if he didn't want to have to pay child support!)

In the 14-15 years since those tests were done, moreover, it has been shown that 20 to 30 to 40 percent of modern "Europeans" can be shown to have the same profile. pk

Yes the entire genome is vast, BUT every single human being shares the exact same sequences over 99.5% of the genome. The actual amount of variation is rather small, and occurs in what is called "junk DNA". Only certain strings of junk DNA will match with close blood relations. HOWEVER, only two or three max. mis matches will exclude relationship 100% no doubt.(she had five) THIS is why those claiming the mtDNA of Anna Anderson should be retested or is "unrealiable" are simply wrong.

To be clear. Whether one looks at 13 or 23 loci, ONE mismatch is an exclusion for mtDNA. The case of Anna Manahan had FIVE mismatches to the Victoria line of descent. There were NO mismatches for the Karl Maucher mtDNA. IF one examines 23 loci, the same five mis-matches will STILL be there. This is the reason that every single specialist in forensic mtDNA analysis says there is no reason to re test the Anna manahan samples.

For example (this is going to be extremely oversimplified, but ok for our purposes). Here are two sequences:


ACTGGGTAACGTAAGGTC
AGTAAGCCACTATACGCC


So we are comparing them to see if the two match. Normally you won't compare the entire sequence but just part of it...

So if we look at random loci (positions) then there is a chance we may get a false positive if we don't look at enough of them... Like this:

ACTGGGTAACGTAAGGTC
AGTAAGCCACTATACGCC


So even though these specific loci match, the sequence doesn't. Statistically speaking, the more loci you compare the more accurate the result will be, because in this case, if you did one more, there would be a mismatch and we would have our answer.

However, with mismatch, it's a different story once there is a mismatch, even of one base. So if you look at the same sequence but compare more loci and get one mismatch, it's a mismatch, period. There is no way you can a false mismatch... Like this:

ACTGGGTAACGTAAGGTC
AGTAAGCCACTATACGCC


And once there is a mismatch, all bets are off. ONE mismatch is all it takes, and she already has five, so it won't make any difference how many more sequences they test. One and she's out.

 

[COUNTESS]

Thank you. Very clearly and nicely presented.

 

[BorisRom]

Thank you. Very clearly and nicely presented.

The scientific medical statistics in this case is in 3000 times of more reliability (authentic), than DNA-researches and much more preferable in sense of possibility of mistakes and falsification.
"Clearly and nicely"?

 

[Ex-Princess Lisa]

Once again:
Anna Anderson and GD Anastasia: Cinderella’s glass slippers.

1. GD Anastasia had CONGENITAL “Hallux Valgus” (bunions).
The identity of the congenital deformity of GD Anastasia's feet, which was very pronounced, is not only visible in photographs of the young grand duchess, but was confirmed even by those close to ANR who did NOT believe in AA's identity (for instance, the tsar's
younger sister GD Olga Alexandrovna – and she well knew the imperial children since their birth). It *was* congenital, and it was not caused by anything else. The nurse-maid (of little Anastasia) Shura Tegleva confirmed Anastasia’s congenital bunions too.

2. Anna Anderson had CONGENITAL hallux valgus (bunions) too.
Except of this diagnosis of German doctors (in Dalldorf, 1920), the diagnosis "the congenital “Hallux Valgus" was put also by the Russian doctor Sergey Mihajlovich Rudnev in St.Maria's clinic in the summer of 1925 (AA was very hardly sick of a tubercular infection):

I have hallux valgus, my father has hallux valgus, but it does'nt make me Anastasia!

 

[BorisRom]

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I have hallux valgus, my father has hallux valgus, but it does'nt make me Anastasia!

Have you CONGENITAL hallux valgus?

-- the "hallux valgus" (HV) has 0,95 % from number of the surveyed women;
-- the first degree of the HV has 89 % from them (= 0,85% from the surveyed women );
-- the third degree of the HV has 1,6 % from them (= 0,0152% from the surveyed women or 1: 6580 );
-- the statistics of a congenital case «hallux valgus» makes (in modern Russia) 8:142 000000, or, approximately, 1:17 750 000!
We can assume the statistics data of a congenital case «hallux valgus» in former Russia did not differ too strongly (let even in some times, 1: 10 000 000). Thus the case of “AA was not ANR” has the probability from 1:10 millions to 1:17 millions.

As one of the orthopedists has expressed: «It is easier to find two girls of one age with identical FINGER PRINTS, than with attributes CONGENITAL hallux valgus”

So,
have you CONGENITAL HV?

 

[ysbel]

The scientific medical statistics in this case is in 3000 times of more reliability (authentic), than DNA-researches and much more preferable in sense of possibility of mistakes and falsification.
"Clearly and nicely"?

Can you show us other cases where hallux valgux was a preferred method of identification over DNA testing?

 

[Ex-Princess Lisa]

Congenital means something that has been inherited.
As my father has been to the doctor and diagnosed with a bunion and I also subsequently have been diagnosed with the same thing on my right foot, I think it is safe to assume I inherited this condition from my father.
It is very annoying because I am unable to wear high heels, only about an inch and a half.

 

[BorisRom]

Congenital means something that has been inherited.
As my father has been to the doctor and diagnosed with a bunion and I also subsequently have been diagnosed with the same thing on my right foot, I think it is safe to assume I inherited this condition from my father.
It is very annoying because I am unable to wear high heels, only about an inch and a half.

No.
Congenital means that a person has it from the birthday. Parents of Anastasia (Nicholas and Alexandra) had not it (HV) in general.
Boris

P.S.
I sympathize with you and your father.

 

[BorisRom]

Can you show us other cases where hallux valgux was a preferred method of identification over DNA testing?

Researchers on identification have paid attention to this extremely rare medical statistics of CONGENITAL HV only one year ago (in 2007), therefore similar precedent yet was not. Case AA/ANR can become precedent.
Boris

 

[ysbel]

Researchers on identification have paid attention to this extremely rare medical statistics of CONGENITAL HV only one year ago (in 2007), therefore similar precedent yet was not. Case AA/ANR can become precedent.
Boris

Thanks for explaining Boris.

Well since it took DNA two decades to establish itself before being admitted in courts, I'm afraid it may be awhile before congenital HV findings have the same reputation for reliability for determining identity as current DNA tests enjoy. It may happen though but from the look of it, not very soon.

 

[lexi4]

Thanks for explaining Boris.

Well since it took DNA two decades to establish itself before being admitted in courts, I'm afraid it may be awhile before congenital HV findings have the same reputation for reliability for determining identity as current DNA tests enjoy. It may happen though but from the look of it, not very soon.

I agree. I think DNA trumps HV in the identification process.
Boris, my understanding it that all HV cases are gentic.

 

[COUNTESS]

The scientific medical statistics in this case is in 3000 times of more reliability (authentic), than DNA-researches and much more preferable in sense of possibility of mistakes and falsification.
"Clearly and nicely"?

Just trying to be nice. Sometimes I am snippy. Lots of discussion sometimes borders on the bizarre and this was a cogent reply, and very "clear and concise".

 

[lexi4]

Just trying to be nice. Sometimes I am snippy. Lots of discussion sometimes borders on the bizarre and this was a cogent reply, and very "clear and concise".

Countess, I have found that sometimes life borders on the bizarre.
Lexi

 

[COUNTESS]

Quite true. I didn't want to use the word nutty.

 

[plkbvt]

It said on ABC that the bodies were those of Tsaravitch Alexei and Grand Duchess Anastasia. I feel it is good that the whole family can be reunited again. But what does this say about people like Anna Anderson? How could so many people have been wrong? A few years ago I read Anna Anderson's autobigraphy...quite interesting.

Two things: what makes you think that AA's supporters were "wrong." Only the 1994 DNA tests, when that science was in its infancy. Much has changed.

Second, AA did not write her own "autobiography." It was ghosted at the request of her attorneys. She did not cooperate with it in any respect, and gained not a dime from its publication. pk

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Two things: what makes you think that AA's supporters were "wrong." Only the 1994 DNA tests, when that science was in its infancy. Much has changed.

As has already been explained: it doesn't matter because once you mismatch on one sequence it's enough to disqualify you. So even if they did the more modern 23 point tests, it would make no difference. She mismatched 5 of 13, so if you do 23, she'll only mismatch more (and remember ONE was all it takes to not be Anastasia) This is why all the experts agree there is no need to retest.

It should also be noted that the tests were done in not only one but four different labs (three with the intestines, one with the hair sample) and all gave the same results. If there had been any mistake by anyone, all four would not have turned out the same. The new bones found last summer will be sent to other labs after they are finished in Russia, so hopefully the more labs test them in more countries, the less doubt there will be. (this since some people have mentioned they don't trust Russia)

 

[plkbvt]

For the DNA tests on the bodies found in Koptyaki Forest, DNA from Prince Phillip was used. His mother, Princess Alice of Greece, was the daughter of Alexandra's oldest sister, Victoria. Both Alexandra and Victoria shared the same mtDNA. Testing for Nicholas proved to be more complicated. His nearest living relative was his sister Olga's son. He believed the bones found to be a hoax engineered by the KGB and refused to cooperate with the testing. Consequently, the lab cloned the DNA of Nicholas using the PCR process but this too proved problematic. In the end, the body of Nicholas's brother, Grand Duke George Alexandrovich, was exhumed and a match obtained.
So, the DNA used for Nicolas and Alexandra was that of Prince Phillip and Grand Duke George.
Lexi

Lexi -- this is quite correct, but as I never get tired of saying, no *legal* review has ever been passed on this. Who was there when a hair of Prince Philip's was plucked? Who oversaw this procedure? Answer: Nobody. I swear to you, none of this would hold up for two minutes in a court of law -- it would be tossed out on its ear. Especially when you figure that the Hesse/Mountbattens were always AA's most vociferous opponents. Any court of law would demand that these tests be repeated -- only now there are no samples to use, the bones of the i.f. being interred in Russia is a more or less "inviolate" state (they're not about to open those tombs again!) and all of the putative "AA" samples being in great dispute as to origin and "chain of custody." No -- never in a courtroom would any of this hold up, which is why the survivors have not brought it to court for an official judicial ruling. They KNOW that they would have to go back to the very beginning. pk

 

[plkbvt]

Oh I agree and understand. I was treated appallingly by the local parish priest because of my sexuality. It took me 4 years to find a gay friendly Catholic Church but even that has meant tiny little steps and I spent 4 years totally rejecting the Church because it rejected me so I'm a kindred spirit with AA on that front.

Thank you for this, BeatrixFan -- I wish more people understood.

When you use the handle "BeatrixFan" are you speaking of Her Majesty of the Netherlands? pk