Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

Problem is that Anderson's DNA was not taken while she was alive. As she was cremated after her death, no DNA was available, till someone "remembered" that he had kept a lock of her hair... That was a rather fishy story and there is no real proof that it really was Anderson's DNA.

It's a bit more scientific and reliable than a lock of hair. According to Marlene Eilers in "Queen Victoria's Descendants" (p56): "[in 1994] a sample of her intestinal tissue (which had been kept on file at Martha Jefferson Hospital in Charlottesville, a normal procedure following surgery) was sent to Aldermaston in England where Dr Peter Gill performed the DNA tests. Concurrently, DNA testing was also being performed on several strands of hair belonging to Anna Anderson at Penn State in the United States. The DNA testing would prove that the hair samples and the tissue were from the same person, and [Anna Anderson's DNA] did not match the Hesse-Romanov code."

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Warren

It's a bit more scientific and reliable than a lock of hair. According to Marlene Eilers in "Queen Victoria's Descendants" (p56): "[in 1994] a sample of her intestinal tissue (which had been kept on file at Martha Jefferson Hospital in Charlottesville, a normal procedure following surgery) was sent to Aldermaston in England where Dr Peter Gill performed the DNA tests. Concurrently, DNA testing was also being performed on several strands of hair belonging to Anna Anderson at Penn State in the United States. The DNA testing would prove that the hair samples and the tissue were from the same person, and [Anna Anderson's DNA] did not match the Hesse-Romanov code."

A quote from: Could Anna Anderson be Anastasia?

DNA testing in 1994 showed that the mtDNA of Empress Alexandra and her daughters to be a perfect match with the Duke of Edinburgh. DNA testing in 1994 on the remains of the most famous Romanov survivor claimant, Anna Anderson Manahan, showed that her mtDNA did not match that of the Duke of Edinburgh, meaning that she could not be Anastasia as she claimed until her death in 1984. Instead, it matched with an alleged grandnephew of Franziska Schanzkowska the woman who Anna Anderson's opponents had long hoped to identify her with, Carl Maucher, supporting the hypothesis that Franziska Schanzkowska and Anna Anderson were one and the same. However, not only recent analysis by DNA experts, but further DNA tests and circumstantial evidence make the 1994 verdicts not so official after all. What we do know is that the chain of custody for the samples tested would not have stood up in any court. The only thing which suggest the intestinal tissue was from Anderson is that the number on the box correlates to the her history number. However, we don't know how the procedure was carried out in 1979. We don't have hard proof this was her tissue. Second of all, we don't have a chain of custody for the hair samples at all. All we have is some woman who claimed to have found them in John Manahan's old bookstore inside of a book with a letter that read, 'Anastasia's hair'. Inside this letter the hair was allegedly found. No STRs were derived from this hair, so we don't have any PROOF that these hairs were from the same person as the intestine or Anna Anderson. As for the blood slide which was located in Germany, it didn't have the same sequence at all (although it is a common misconception). So what we have are three samples, allegedy belonging to Anna Anderson, not one of them with the absolute proof.

and another, even more interesting:

Historian Greg King has done some great research on the Romanovs and written an excellent biography of Empress Alexandra. But what he has to say on Anna Anderson/ Anastasia may come as a shock to those who refuse to believe that anyone could have survived the bloodbath of 1918, despite the evidence of two missing bodies.
"One needn't believe in conspiracies or ascribe incompetence to those who conducted the testing to have doubts about their continued validity. Two distinct methods of DNA testing were used to show support for the hypotheses that Anastasia Manahan or Anna Anderson 1) Could not have been a child of Nicholas and Alexandra; 2) Did not match the mtDNA Hessian profile derived by Gill and used to match four of the female Ekaterinburg remains to the profile derived from HRH The Duke of Edinburgh; and 3) Matched the mtDNA profile of Karl Maucher, lending support to the hypothesis that she was Schanzkowska.
Both nuclear and mitochondrial (mtDNA) testing was done. Nuclear testing is preferred as it renders better results and is considered more accurate, while mtDNA is less discriminating. Nuclear DNA tests showed that AA could not possibly have been a daughter of N and A, yet changes in the science make the 1994 verdict obsolete. Gill used a 6-point Short Tandem Repeat (STR) analysis of the nuclear DNA to arrive at these results. Within four years of these tests, 10 point STR testing was being done, and when results of 10 point STR testing were compared with 6 point STR tests, the 6 point analysis was shown conclusively to give both false positive and negative results-in other words, conclusions based on 6 point STR tests were proved faulty. In 1999, the testing had gone from the 6 point STR tests of 1993-94 and the 10 point STR tests of 1998 to 12 point STR tests, the accuracy of which further undermined 6 point STR test results. Gill admitted this in a statement released in 2000, adding that FSS had changed from the old 6 point STR method to the 10 point STR method in 1999. In 2000, the STR tests were up to a 14 point system; in 2001, it was 16 points, and by 2002, the industry standard worldwide in STR testing was 20 point STR tests. Scientific studies have repeatedly shown that 6 point STR tests are unreliable and result in false matches and exclusions. The 6 point STR nuclear DNA tests that showed Anastasia Manahan could not have been a daughter of N and A, therefore, are now meaningless.
The mtDNA match to the Maucher profile is also now known to be less reliable than everyone believed. In 1994, mtDNA matches were believed to prove identity, and to be unique to related individuals. Last year, an extensive UK study showed that out of a random 100 persons, four completely unrelated subjects shared exactly the same mtDNA profiles; extrapolate that here, on a board with 400 members: of the 400 of us posting here, 40 of us-unrelated to each other-would have identical mtDNA profiles, thus "proving" that we're related. The odds of a random mtDNA match between the Manahan sample and the Maucher profile are indeed considerable given the size of the world population and the numbers involved. I suspect, based on the continuing evolution of the science, that future studies will show mtDNA profiles to be even more common than this.
My reservations about regarding the 1994 DNA tests as absolutely conclusive in the matter of Anastasia Manahan, therefore, rest on the advances of science. Two of the three planks in the DNA case against her have now been shown to be either unreliable or less than compelling in a mere ten years. Her exclusion from the Hessian mtDNA profile remains, and while the methods used to obtain the exclusion remain in practice, given the above changes I hesitate to presume that they, too, won't be challenged as the science evolves; already in the last 2 years there have been two substantial challenges to the DNA testing done on the Ekaterinburg remains, and I suppose there will be more in the future that may or may not be valid. This makes it theoretically possible -- given the facts above about the first two DNA planks in the case -- that ultimately in another generation none of the DNA identifications/exclusions in the Anderson case will matter-and the case will fall back to where it always rested before the DNA -- to examination of physical traits, memories, recognitions, etc.
It seems to me, whether one wishes to believe in Anna Anderson or not (and I don't wish either way, incidentally), it is best to keep an open mind and at least examine the facts as known now in the DNA case against Anastasia Manahan -- as three separate issues -- rather than repeatedly refer to ten year old tests that, taken as a whole, have lost two-thirds of their validity."


As Anna/Anastasia did not leave children it really doesn't matter nowadays but still there is something fishy in the whole story - too many strange occurances and some people involved with real good motives. Which is something I don't feel when it comes to Diana's death.

[Lady Night Stalker]

As Anna/Anastasia did not leave children it really doesn't matter nowadays but still there is something fishy in the whole story - too many strange occurances and some people involved with real good motives. Which is something I don't feel when it comes to Diana's death.

When Anna Anderson was examined it was reported that she had born atleast one child. According to Anderson the child was the son of one of the men who saved her and that she gave it up for adoption. Its probably impossible to find this child now that Anderson is dead not to mention this guy probably has no idea about his past. That is assuming her child is still alive. Europe went through some pretty tulmutous years. WWII, the holocaust, Cold War.....he's probably dead.

[BorisRom]

AA=ANR: CINDERELLA’S GLASS SLIPPERS OF GD ANASTASIA

Very rare congenital deformation of feet "hallux valgus" of AA and ANR puts a fat point in fierce disputes of supporters and opponents of Anna Anderson. In a fairy tale the princess was found out on glass slipper but if in a fairy tale the Prince has found out the Cinderella, in the life of Anna-Anastasia all has taken place on the contrary, and till now, in almost 88 years from appearance-occurrence of Anna-Anastasia in Berlin, even the significant part of members of the House of Romanovs does not recognize, that "Anna Anderson" was the rescued GD ANR (the rescued on July, 17, 1918 ). Fierce disputes on Anna Anderson's riddle proceed till now …
It is surprisingly that all knew about a rarity of this orthopedic disease, but until recently it occurred to nobody to address to experts-orthopedists and to learn exact medical statistics. Only in this 2007 year an unknown engineer from Ekaterinburg has made it (Vladimir Momot, his article was published in L-A newspaper “Panorama” in February, 2007). So:
«The first work about hallux valgus has been published by doctor Laforest in 1778. The largest works in XX century are D.E.Shklovsky's monography (1937), E.I.Zajtsev's(1959) and G.N.Kramarenko's (1970) dissertations. Working in the Central scientific research institute of traumatology and orthopedy of Ministry of Health of the USSR, Galina Nikolaevna Kramarenko has processed the statistical material collected as a result of mass inspections of women on diseases of static deformation of feet. In result she has obtained the following data. Hallux valgus. as a rule, appears at women of 30-35 years old. G.Kramarenko has found out, that the "isolated" hallux valgus 0,95 % suffer from number of the surveyed women. And the first degree of illness has been fixed at 89 %, and the third degree (case AA and ANR) only at 1,6 % from among the women having the given disease. Thus, one of 6500 women (in the age more senior than 30 years) suffers from this illness.
As to cases of congenital disease (case of AA and ANR), these cases are individual and meet extremely seldom. In head establishment of Russia on this problem the Research institute of children's orthopedic of a name of G.I.Turner for last ten years it is registered only eight cases of this disease. - And it is on hundred fifty millions [more exactly, on 142 million - B.R.] inhabitants of Russia».
Thus, the statistics of a congenital case «hallux valgus» makes 8:142 000000, or, approximately, 1:17 750000! Thus, Anna Anderson really was GD Anastasia with such probability (99,9999947)! By the way, this Research institute of children's orthopedic of a name of G.I.Turner is in Tsarskoe Selo (nowadays. Pushkin) where on June 5 (18), 1901 in 6 A.M. Anastasia Nikolaevna Romanova was born. It is very probable, that children's doctor Henry Ivanovich Turner (1858 - 1941) examined imperial children in the beginning of XX century in the Aleksandrovsky palace and diagnosed «hallux valgus» to small Anastasia…
The above mentioned statistics practically put down the negative results of the DNA-tests which have been carried out with the remains of some of her body-materials in 1994-1997 - because those years reliability of DNA-researches did not exceed 1:6000 - in three thousand times less authentically, than statistics of "glass slippers" of Anna-Anastasia!
And nota bene, the statistics of congenital «hallux valgus» is actually the statistics of facts\artefacts (there are not doubts here) while DNA-researches are a complex (and difficult) procedure at which the opportunity of casual genetic pollution of initial materials is impossible to exclude, and even their ill-intentioned substitution.

***

I am extremely grateful to Peter Kurth who has given to me the initial information.
For those who reads in Russian (the full text of this article):
http://www.petroprognoz.spb.ru/analitika/20okt07-AA-ANR.html
Boris

[morhange]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Peter Kurth a longtime supporter of Anna Anderson? Maybe I'm thinking of someone else, but I could have sworn it was him...

[Royal Fan]

Yes Peter Kurth Defened her Claims.

[BorisRom]

So, statistics data:
-- the “isolated” hallux valgus has 0,95 % from number of the surveyed women;
-- the first degree of the HV has 89 % from them (= 0,85% from the surveyed women );
-- the third degree of the HV has 1,6 % from them (= 0,0152% from the surveyed women or 1: 6580 );
-- the statistics of a congenital case «hallux valgus» makes 8:142 000000, or, approximately, 1:17 750 000! It is the case of AA and ANR.
And we must add that AA had one of the foot (it seems it was her right one’s) more deformed than the other. This was noticed by the nurse-maid (of little Anastasia) Shura Tegleva-Gilliard herself, who remarked that Anastasia had the same particularity as AA.
***
The setting of identity of Anna Anderson (AA) and Anastasia Nikolaevna Romanova (ANR) is of great importance for historians and for hundreds (or thousands) people which till now are involved in fierce disputes on it by mind and heart.
Except of it (and, possible, it is the MAIN thing in political sense]), if AA=ANR who was buried in 1998 in Saint Petersburg under a name Anastasia? And whose remains have been found in summer of 2007 in Koptiakov forest?
At last, it is known, that Anna Anderson had the son (he was born in the autumn of 1919 on border with Romania). What is a fate of the son of GD Anastasia?

[Russophile]

Indeed Peter Kurth defended her claims. He knew her.
Quite well.
Lucien, you won't find any conclusive proof. They are now getting more people involved in this mess. Carnival again!

[BorisRom]

If any participant of this forum wants to read more brisk discussion about «Cinderella's glass slippers of GD Anastasia», you can read it (for example):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbhistory/F2233809?thread=4701491&skip=0&show=20
http://www.kingandwilson.com/forum/list.php?85
http://p092.ezboard.com/fworldofroyaltymessageboardfrm2.showMessageRange?topicID=1728.topic&start=1&stop=25
Sincerely, I don't want to offend anybody here, but I like more brisk discussions. Certainly, with pleasure I'm ready to continue discussion here too. I like your forum with its slow advantages and absence of fussiness.
Boris

[BorisRom]

Anna Anderson and GD Anastasia: Cinderella’s glass slippers.
Due to these discussions and due to conversation on this theme with Peter Kurth (I thank you so much, Peter!), I have decided to formulate this theme more precisely now:

1. GD Anastasia had CONGENTAL “Hallux Valgus” (bunions).
The identity of the congenital deformity of GD Anastasia's feet, which was very pronounced, is not only visible in photographs of the young grand duchess, but was confirmed even by those close to ANR who did NOT believe in AA's identity (for instance, the tsar's
younger sister GD Olga Alexandrovna – and she well knew the imperial children since their birth). It *was* congenital, and it was not caused by anything else. The nurse-maid (of little Anastasia) Shura Tegleva confirmed Anastasia’s congenital bunions too.

2. Anna Anderson had CONGENTAL hallux valgus (bunions) too.
Except of this diagnosis of German doctors (in Dalldorf, 1920), the diagnosis "the congenital “Hallux Valgus" was put also by the Russian doctor Sergey Mihajlovich Rudnev in St.Maria's clinic in the summer of 1925 (AA was very hardly sick of a tubercular infection):
«On her right foot I have noticed strong deformation, OBVIOUSLY, CONGENITAL: the big finger bend to the right, forming a tumour». Hallux Valgus was on her both feet. (Peter Kurth's book [Anastasia. The riddle of Anna Anderson], in Russian, p.99). Doctor Rudnev has cured and has rescued her life in 1925. AA named him «my kind Russian professor who has rescued my life».

3. On July, 27, 1925 to Berlin the spouses Gillard have arrived. Once again: Shura Gillard-Tegleva was the nurse-maid of GD Anastasia in Russia. They have visited very much sick AA in clinic. Shura has asked to show the feet of the patient. The blanket has been cast cautiously away, Shura has exclaimed:
«With [Anastasia] it was the same as here: the right foot was worse than the left» (Peter Kurth."Anastasia. The riddle of Anna Anderson", in Russian, p.121)
***
Now, the statistics data of “Hallux Valgus” (bunions):
-- the "hallux valgus" (HV) has 0,95 % from number of the surveyed women;
-- the first degree of the HV has 89 % from them (= 0,85% from the surveyed women );
-- the third degree of the HV has 1,6 % from them (= 0,0152% from the surveyed women or 1: 6580 );
-- the statistics of a congenital case «hallux valgus» makes (in modern Russia) 8:142 000000, or, approximately, 1:17 750 000!
We can assume the statistics data of a congenital case «hallux valgus» in former Russia did not differ too strongly (let even in some times, 1: 10 000 000). Thus the case of “AA was not ANR” has the probability from 1:10 millions to 1:17 millions.
In addition:
The citation from article about congenital “hallux valgus” of AA (“Gone with the wind”, L-A newspaper "Panorama", February, 2007):
“As one of the orthopedists (advising me) has expressed: «It is easier to find two girls of one age with identical FINGER PRINTS, than with attributes CONGENITAL hallux valgus”
***
Thus, I think (I hope), very rare congenital deformation of feet "hallux valgus" of AA and ANR puts a fat point in fierce disputes of supporters and opponents of Anna Anderson.

Regards
Boris

P.S. Of course, I can suppose many opponents (opponents of Anna Anderson) will agree to differ (will keep their former opinion), but henceforth they should demonstratively deny down the stated above.
P.P.S. ... and they should deny Peter Kurth's book on former - the main thing!

[england]

I hear that they have identified the two bodies found near the grave of the Imperial Family. It said on ABC that the bodies were those of Tsaravitch Alexei and Grand Duchess Anastasia. I feel it is good that the whole family can be reunited again. But what does this say about people like Anna Anderson? How could so many people have been wrong? A few years ago I read Anna Anderson's autobigraphy...quite interesting. I just purchased "Romanov Fanatasy" but have not had a chance to read it yet

[Harry's polo shirt]

Originally Posted by england

I hear that they have identified the two bodies found near the grave of the Imperial Family. It said on ABC that the bodies were those of Tsaravitch Alexei and Grand Duchess Anastasia. I feel it is good that the whole family can be reunited again. But what does this say about people like Anna Anderson? How could so many people have been wrong? A few years ago I read Anna Anderson's autobigraphy...quite interesting. I just purchased "Romanov Fanatasy" but have not had a chance to read it yet

have they done a DNA test yet?

[COUNTESS]

Anna Anderson's DNA was tested and she was a fraud. The people alive today that are somewhat related to these people, didn't even know them. They are no more than names to them. Prince Michael of England was, certainly, related to them and concurs with the findings. The rest is romantic images promulagted by those who have no relationship to them, but love a good story.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

Anna Anderson's DNA was tested and she was a fraud. The people alive today that are somewhat related to these people, didn't even know them. They are no more than names to them. Prince Michael of England was, certainly, related to them and concurs with the findings. The rest is romantic images promulagted by those who have no relationship to them, but love a good story.

You're entitled to your opinion, and me to mine. Have a nice day.

[Ex-Princess Lisa]

I quite agree with you, Russophile.

Maybe the truth will finally come out?

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Ex-Princess Lisa

I quite agree with you, Russophile.

Maybe the truth will finally come out?

Would that it were that easy Lisa! But it's such a complicated case. When Anna Anderson was tested, DNA wasn't as efficient as it is now. She tested not as Anastasia but she didn't test as Francheska whom-ever the detractors have tried to pin on her either. They have samples of her hair but they've been passed around by who knows how many hands.
I believe that somebody survived. That either lived to be a grand old age, don't know. Alexis was a bleeder. There is still inconclusive evidence that he was a full blown hemopheliac, but he was a bleeder. I can't remember which book also said the Grand Duchesses were prone to bleeding and taking a long time to clot. After the massacre, it is hard to say how long he would have lived with those types of injuries. Ditto with Anastasia.
But I certainly don't believe that they could get 2 bodies out of 44 FRAGMENTS. They are just stretching to try and put this to bed.
Highly fascinating stuff.

[Anna was Franziska]

Perhaps this explaination will help.




For example (this is going to be extremely oversimplified, but ok for our purposes). Here are two sequences:


ACTGGGTAACGTAAGGTC
AGTAAGCCACTATACGCC


So we are comparing them to see if the two match. Normally you won't compare the entire sequence but just part of it...

So if we look at random loci (positions) then there is a chance we may get a false positive if we don't look at enough of them... Like this:

ACTGGGTAACGTAAGGTC
AGTAAGCCACTATACGCC


So even though these specific loci match, the sequence doesn't. Statistically speaking, the more loci you compare the more accurate the result will be, because in this case, if you did one more, there would be a mismatch and we would have our answer.

However, with mismatch, it's a different story once there is a mismatch, even of one base. So if you look at the same sequence but compare more loci and get one mismatch, it's a mismatch, period. There is no way you can a false mismatch... Like this:

ACTGGGTAACGTAAGGTC
AGTAAGCCACTATACGCC


And once there is a mismatch, all bets are off.




To be clear. Whether one looks at 13 or 23 loci, ONE mismatch is an exclusion for mtDNA. The case of Anna Manahan had FIVE mismatches to the Victoria line of descent. There were NO mismatches for the Karl Maucher mtDNA. IF one examines 23 loci, the same five mis-matches will STILL be there. This is the reason that every single specialist in forensic mtDNA analysis says there is no reason to re test the Anna manahan samples.



Yes the entire genome is vast, BUT every single human being shares the exact same sequences over 99.5% of the genome. The actual amount of variation is rather small, and occurs in what is called "junk DNA". Only certain strings of junk DNA will match with close blood relations. HOWEVER, only two or three max. mis matches will exclude relationship 100% no doubt. THIS is why those claiming the mtDNA of Anna Anderson should be retested or is "unrealiable" are simply wrong.

[Russophile]

Anna was Franziska may I ask where you got this theory? It's fascinating.

[ysbel]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

To be clear. Whether one looks at 3 or 23 loci, ONE mismatch is an exclusion for mtDNA. The case of Anna Manahan had FIVE mismatches to the Victoria line of descent. There were NO mismatches for the Karl Maucher mtDNA. IF one examines 23 loci, the same five mis-matches will STILL be there. This is the reason that every single specialist in forensic mtDNA analysis says there is no reason to re test the Anna manahan samples.
.

So what you are saying is that Anna Anderson's mtDNA matched Karl Maucher's mtDNA 100% whereas there were 5 mismatches when compared to Prince Michael's?

I suppose that a 100% match means that she WAS related to Karl Maucher which would not make it impossible for her to be related to Prince Michael but it would seem on the face of it to make it highly improbable. If she's not related to Prince Michael then I'd be hard pressed to say that she is Anastasia.

[Russophile]

And see, this is where it gets dicey because I've heard from Peter Kurth that she didn't match EITHER of them.
It makes it very hard for any tests to be re-run as she insisted that her body be cremated. Anna didn't make anything easy for anyone, but then again, the whole situation wasn't an easy one!