Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia - Page 4

Charlottesville · #61 06-20-2006, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mapple

So the conspiracy has to be so multifaceted that its different partners act on their own accord, simultaneously managing to keep everything secret for 80+ years?

Well in the case of Anna Anderson, it would have been more like 60+ years. I really can't say if there was a conspiracy or not, but I can say that for me personally the DNA tests did not manage to answer all my questions.

When I first read about the DNA tests, I was absolutely baffled by the results. I tried so hard to accept that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia and was Franziska Schanzkowska, but there is still so much that I can't understand. How could a Polish peasent have fooled those who were so close to Anastasia Nicholaevna, into being such supporters all throughout their life, such as Tatiana Botkin and Gleb Botkin, whose father was murdered with the family, as well as Lili Dehn, Empress Alexandra's best friend, into thinking she was the girl they once knew. No imposter in history has ever attained such recognition as this before. In there was the way the FS case was handled in court. An excerpt from Peter Kurth's "Anastasia":

"Doris Wingender brought 2 pictures out of her bag now. One depicted herself in 1920, wearing, she said, the famous blue suit she had given to Franziska in the summer of 1922, when Anastasia was missing from the home of Baron Von Kleist. The second showed Anastasia later on in Tiergarten. "You are going to see the same suit in this photograph," said Doris triumphantly, handing the photographs to the judge.
Weirkmeister looked at the picture in silence. Then he looked back at Doris and said with a frown, "But something has been erased in this picture of you." 'Yes,' said Doris, that was true. In the original photograph a man had been standing at her shoulder. "I had this removed because at the time certain wicked people were accusing me of having loose morals. Werkmeister sniffed. Then he passed the pictures around the courtroom, while lawyers and journalists stared at them both and shrugged their shoulders.
"You can easily see the two suits are identical," said Doris, unprompted, from the bar, "they've got the same buttons, the same belt..." But Werkmeister wasn't sure.
"Listen," said the judge, "we're going to get an expert opinion on these." Doris Wingender was exceedingly displeased to hear it.
...But Anastasia's friends were considerably pleased when, in 1958, the police experts at Hamburg-Altona delievered the report on Doris Wingender's pictures. The clothing in the two photographs, the police informed, was not only not identical, but on one of the suits, "the buttons and the belt have been drawn in after the fact."
The judges at Hamburg passed over this in total silence.
Another witness opposing Anna Anderson, Gerda Von Kleist, refused to take the oath when asked.
Martha Borkowska, an old aquaintance of Franziska Schanzkowska from Poland, had been called to reminisce. When presented with a stack of photographs, she recognized each one as Franziska except the one of Franziska.
....As for Doris, she wasn't up to form. She broke down under Wollman's attack, sobbing out and crying, "I can't anymore! I have the flu!"
Wollman would not let up. He had located a copy of Die Woche, the Berlin magazine in which, said Doris, she had first recognized Franziska Schanzkowska in a photograph of Anastasia.
"In this photograph?" Wollman asked.
"Yes,"
"And it was upon seeing this picture that you went off the the Nachtausgabe?"
"Yes. I don't feel well."
"And it was from this picture which allowed you to conclude that the invalid at Castle Seeon... was your Polish girl?"
"Yes."
"I suppose the 1500 marks weren't going to be paid out unless you made an identification."
"Correct. As soon as the identification was made."
Wollman handed the magazine to the judges. The photograph of Anastasia's face they saw, was little more than a smudge of ink.- a white blob with two black circles for eyes and another where the mouth was supposed to be.
"Why," said the judge, "from that you could recognize anybody or nobody."
Doris got the point. Dominique Aucleres observed she had gone 'white as a wall'.
"I'm sick," she cried. "I've got the flu."
"A chair for my witness," cried Berenburg-Gossler.
"You're going to take the oath," said Judge Peterson to Doris.
"I can't! I can't tonight. Take my pulse."
"Well," said Dominique Aucleres. "A judge isn't a hangman after all."
Wollman was furious "I want that oath given and given now!"
Bathge tried to calm him. "She'll be given the oath later by one of the Berlin magistates."
"Now!"
While they were arguing Doris Wingender slipped from the room. She never came back. And that, for all intents, was the end of the legend of Franziska Schanzkowska."

This is one question which will always baffle me.

merchooker · #62 06-21-2006, 12:28 PM

I commend everyone that has done research in this area. I'm of Ukrainian decent and the story of the escape of Anastasia has always facinated me. My mother told me the story of Anna Anderson when I was small and I just think that no one that was an imposter would know the details that she did. However, the story about the town in Bulgaria was very interesting. I don't think we'll ever know the truth. To me, the most important thing has always been believing that she somehow survived. To know that she lived, despite what was done to her, was greatest point.

Charlottesville · #63 06-21-2006, 04:30 PM

Another thing I would like to add- We do know that for a period of several months the tissue in Martha Jefferson Hospital could not be found. Where was it?

Mapple · #64 06-29-2006, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlottesville

Another thing I would like to add- We do know that for a period of several months the tissue in Martha Jefferson Hospital could not be found. Where was it?

I do not know, and what do you think? :)

Charlottesville · #65 07-30-2006, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mapple

I do not know, and what do you think? :)

I don't know really as I wasn't there. But I feel that Anna Anderson's life has too many contradictions to be dismissed completely on the basis of tests on some tissue and hair samples.

Charlottesville · #66 10-22-2006, 10:17 PM

I can certainly understand ones point of view that no one could have survived, but according to all the executioner's reports, even after the murder was through one or all of the girls opened her eyes and screamed, thus the body of either Anastasia or Marie is missing. Why is it so impossible that no one could have survived? Personally, the only claimant in my opinion who had enough evidence to be taken seriously was and is Anna Anderson. She knew so many intimate details, although the possibilty could be that someone close to the Imperial Family could have told her. But of course there has yet to be any evidence of who if they exist, that would be. Many, such as Lili Dehn, Tatiana Botkin, and Gleb Botkin believed in her claims. These DNA tests conducted in 1994 were done only on alleged remains, the chain of custody which would never hold up in court. These tests also suggested she was Franziska Schanzkowska, a Polish factory worker whose family was once called on to identify Anna Anderson as their sister, but found absolutely no resemblance. How is this not somewhat suspicious?

1901- 1918?

I challenge everyone to read the pro-Anna book, "Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson" by Peter Kurth and the more recent skeptical book on Anastasia- Anna Anderson- "The Quest for Anastasia: Solving the Mystery of the Lost Romanovs" by John Klier and Helen Mingay.

lord_rankin · #67 11-02-2006, 08:42 AM

I once thought Anna Anderson was Anastasia but I think it was because I wanted to believe that when I was younger. Now looking at it, having done a lot of reading and research I don't beleive she was. Especially when you look at pictures. I just don't see much similarity between them at all.

Charlottesville · #68 11-02-2006, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_rankin

I once thought Anna Anderson was Anastasia but I think it was because I wanted to believe that when I was younger. Now looking at it, having done a lot of reading and research I don't beleive she was. Especially when you look at pictures. I just don't see much similarity between them at all.

You know, as much as I respect your opinion, I just don't agree. I think they do look enough alike to be the same person.

I personally don't think there is any reason for someone to WANT AA to be AN. I mean, really, what kind of life is that? But my gut feeling, when I see how difficult it was for the Romanovs and Hessians to try and discredit her, it makes me think, "There's something fishy here."

lord_rankin · #69 11-02-2006, 04:40 PM

My reason for wanting to believe Anna was Anastasia is the same reason so many other people wanted to believe her story...The hope that one of the members of that doomed family had escaped that horrible tragedy.

Charlottesville · #70 11-02-2006, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_rankin

My reason for wanting to believe Anna was Anastasia is the same reason so many other people wanted to believe her story...The hope that one of the members of that doomed family had escaped that horrible tragedy.

hmm.. That is interesting, but I personally think it would be horrible if they did escape, especially in the case of Anna Anderson, with relatives and nobles divided over her identity, and never recieving full recognition.

Of course, there is the possibilty that she was an imposter, but then how did she know which pictures were painted by Gleb Botkin in Siberia, the rooms of the Alexander Palace if she had not been there, etc...

Penny Lane · #71 05-23-2007, 01:00 PM

I know many believed Anna was Anastasia but I have looked at photos of both and just can't see the strong resemblance so many other have-am I misssing something?One other question isn't it now believed it was Marie that is missing along with Alexi not Anastasia? Of course I know many believe it to be Anastasia.

Little_star · #72 05-23-2007, 01:03 PM

I think it's actually been proven now that Anna Anderson was indeed a fake. I'll try and find some links for you.

Little_star · #73 05-23-2007, 01:04 PM

Anderson's body was cremated upon her death in 1984. Following Anderson's death, DNA tests were performed comparing Anderson's DNA to the known bloodline of Grand Duchess Anastasia. Repeated DNA tests confirmed with nearly absolute certainty that she was not related to the Russian Imperial Family.
LINK

It would have been fascinating if she were indeed Anastacia.

Penny Lane · #74 05-23-2007, 01:12 PM

I have studied this case a bit-no expert by any means and I do remember her being declared a fake-although it's interesting her supporters don't except the DNA results.I just can't see that they really looked much alike I also saw a bio on the youngest sister of the Czar Olga and she did not think Anna was her niece but as I think another aunt did believe her.It's a most interesting case I guess the fasinaction will continue.

BeatrixFan · #75 05-23-2007, 01:14 PM

Of course there are those who say that the DNA sample was deliberately swapped because the Soviet Regime wouldn't have wanted the Tsar's daughter wandering around.

Penny Lane · #76 05-23-2007, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little_star

Anderson's body was cremated upon her death in 1984. Following Anderson's death, DNA tests were performed comparing Anderson's DNA to the known bloodline of Grand Duchess Anastasia. Repeated DNA tests confirmed with nearly absolute certainty that she was not related to the Russian Imperial Family.
LINK

It would have been fascinating if she were indeed Anastacia.

Thanks for the link up

I don't think this will ever go away too many different opinions and no one answer that everyone accepts.

EmpressRouge · #77 05-23-2007, 09:24 PM

I was watching a PBS special on the mystery of Anastasia about 10 years ago. It was believed that Anderson was in fact a Polish (?) factory worker. They compared Anderson DNA with that of a blood relative of the Polish girl, and they DID match.

Some close of the Anastasia's close childhood friends that met Anderson claimed she was indeed the Grand Duchess because she knew certain secrets and had a certain regal bearing. However, her closest relatives (e.g. her aunt Grand Duchess Olga) who met Anderson said she was a fraud.

Penny Lane · #78 05-24-2007, 01:58 AM

I think I saw that PBS special too I also saw one recently on the National Geographic channel the Russain scientis say it is Marie(or is it Maria) who is missing they did test matching the victims skulls to photographs-numorus photos but Amrican scientist using a different test that says age can be determined by the vertebre says the missng daughter is Anastasia.No wonder the debate goes on!

I don't know why some want to believe it's more likely to be Anastasia's body that is missing it really dosen't matter I don't think any of them made it out alive and if one did why couldn't it be Marie.

acdc1 · #79 06-10-2007, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

I was watching a PBS special on the mystery of Anastasia about 10 years ago. It was believed that Anderson was in fact a Polish (?) factory worker. They compared Anderson DNA with that of a blood relative of the Polish girl, and they DID match.

Some close of the Anastasia's close childhood friends that met Anderson claimed she was indeed the Grand Duchess because she knew certain secrets and had a certain regal bearing. However, her closest relatives (e.g. her aunt Grand Duchess Olga) who met Anderson said she was a fraud.

Yes, they thought that she was a Polish factory worker (I can't spell the name) who was injured in a grenade explosion on the job. She disappeared, and no one heard from her. A little while after that, "Anna Anderson" showed up.

When they found the bodies, they did a DNA test for the women using blood given from Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, who was a great-nephew of Alexandra. It matched. They also did a test on Anderson, and it didn't match. It was also very similar to the Polish factory worker's.

Jo of Palatine · #80 06-14-2007, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acdc1

Yes, they thought that she was a Polish factory worker (I can't spell the name) who was injured in a grenade explosion on the job. She disappeared, and no one heard from her. A little while after that, "Anna Anderson" showed up.

When they found the bodies, they did a DNA test for the women using blood given from Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, who was a great-nephew of Alexandra. It matched. They also did a test on Anderson, and it didn't match. It was also very similar to the Polish factory worker's.

Problem is that Anderson's DNA was not taken while she was alive. As she was cremated after her death, no DNA was available, till someone "remembered" that he had kept a lock of her hair... That was a rather fishy story and there is no real proof that it really was Anderson's DNA.

As for polish factory workers in Berlin - my grandmother was born in 1889 into a very good family who fell on hard times, so she had to work for her living. Still she was brought up a lady and she told me when we once discussed the Anderson claim that no polish factory workeress could ever have managed to make aristocrats believe in a Royal background for her. Manners or the correct way to speak had to have been installed from the earliest childhood in these very formal and strict times, otherwise everybody realised that there was a working class background. It was a completely different kind of society to today. No way to learn these things apart form being raised in the right circles...

My grandmother thus believed in those who recognised Anna Anderson.