Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[england]

Anna Anderson split from New Graves thread

I hear that they have identified the two bodies found near the grave of the Imperial Family. It said on ABC that the bodies were those of Tsaravitch Alexei and Grand Duchess Anastasia. I feel it is good that the whole family can be reunited again. But what does this say about people like Anna Anderson? How could so many people have been wrong? A few years ago I read Anna Anderson's autobigraphy...quite interesting. I just purchased "Romanov Fanatasy" but have not had a chance to read it yet

 

[Harry's polo shirt]

I hear that they have identified the two bodies found near the grave of the Imperial Family. It said on ABC that the bodies were those of Tsaravitch Alexei and Grand Duchess Anastasia. I feel it is good that the whole family can be reunited again. But what does this say about people like Anna Anderson? How could so many people have been wrong? A few years ago I read Anna Anderson's autobigraphy...quite interesting. I just purchased "Romanov Fanatasy" but have not had a chance to read it yet

have they done a DNA test yet?

 

[COUNTESS]

Anna Anderson's DNA was tested and she was a fraud. The people alive today that are somewhat related to these people, didn't even know them. They are no more than names to them. Prince Michael of England was, certainly, related to them and concurs with the findings. The rest is romantic images promulagted by those who have no relationship to them, but love a good story.

 

[Russophile]

Anna Anderson's DNA was tested and she was a fraud. The people alive today that are somewhat related to these people, didn't even know them. They are no more than names to them. Prince Michael of England was, certainly, related to them and concurs with the findings. The rest is romantic images promulagted by those who have no relationship to them, but love a good story.

You're entitled to your opinion, and me to mine. Have a nice day.

 

[Ex-Princess Lisa]

I quite agree with you, Russophile.

Maybe the truth will finally come out?

 

[Russophile]

I quite agree with you, Russophile.

Maybe the truth will finally come out?

Would that it were that easy Lisa! But it's such a complicated case. When Anna Anderson was tested, DNA wasn't as efficient as it is now. She tested not as Anastasia but she didn't test as Francheska whom-ever the detractors have tried to pin on her either. They have samples of her hair but they've been passed around by who knows how many hands.
I believe that somebody survived. That either lived to be a grand old age, don't know. Alexis was a bleeder. There is still inconclusive evidence that he was a full blown hemopheliac, but he was a bleeder. I can't remember which book also said the Grand Duchesses were prone to bleeding and taking a long time to clot. After the massacre, it is hard to say how long he would have lived with those types of injuries. Ditto with Anastasia.
But I certainly don't believe that they could get 2 bodies out of 44 FRAGMENTS. They are just stretching to try and put this to bed.
Highly fascinating stuff.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Perhaps this explaination will help.




For example (this is going to be extremely oversimplified, but ok for our purposes). Here are two sequences:


ACTGGGTAACGTAAGGTC
AGTAAGCCACTATACGCC


So we are comparing them to see if the two match. Normally you won't compare the entire sequence but just part of it...

So if we look at random loci (positions) then there is a chance we may get a false positive if we don't look at enough of them... Like this:

ACTGGGTAACGTAAGGTC
AGTAAGCCACTATACGCC


So even though these specific loci match, the sequence doesn't. Statistically speaking, the more loci you compare the more accurate the result will be, because in this case, if you did one more, there would be a mismatch and we would have our answer.

However, with mismatch, it's a different story once there is a mismatch, even of one base. So if you look at the same sequence but compare more loci and get one mismatch, it's a mismatch, period. There is no way you can a false mismatch... Like this:

ACTGGGTAACGTAAGGTC
AGTAAGCCACTATACGCC


And once there is a mismatch, all bets are off.




To be clear. Whether one looks at 13 or 23 loci, ONE mismatch is an exclusion for mtDNA. The case of Anna Manahan had FIVE mismatches to the Victoria line of descent. There were NO mismatches for the Karl Maucher mtDNA. IF one examines 23 loci, the same five mis-matches will STILL be there. This is the reason that every single specialist in forensic mtDNA analysis says there is no reason to re test the Anna manahan samples.



Yes the entire genome is vast, BUT every single human being shares the exact same sequences over 99.5% of the genome. The actual amount of variation is rather small, and occurs in what is called "junk DNA". Only certain strings of junk DNA will match with close blood relations. HOWEVER, only two or three max. mis matches will exclude relationship 100% no doubt. THIS is why those claiming the mtDNA of Anna Anderson should be retested or is "unrealiable" are simply wrong.

 

[Russophile]

Anna was Franziska may I ask where you got this theory? It's fascinating.

 

[ysbel]

To be clear. Whether one looks at 3 or 23 loci, ONE mismatch is an exclusion for mtDNA. The case of Anna Manahan had FIVE mismatches to the Victoria line of descent. There were NO mismatches for the Karl Maucher mtDNA. IF one examines 23 loci, the same five mis-matches will STILL be there. This is the reason that every single specialist in forensic mtDNA analysis says there is no reason to re test the Anna manahan samples.
.

So what you are saying is that Anna Anderson's mtDNA matched Karl Maucher's mtDNA 100% whereas there were 5 mismatches when compared to Prince Michael's?

I suppose that a 100% match means that she WAS related to Karl Maucher which would not make it impossible for her to be related to Prince Michael but it would seem on the face of it to make it highly improbable. If she's not related to Prince Michael then I'd be hard pressed to say that she is Anastasia.

 

[Russophile]

And see, this is where it gets dicey because I've heard from Peter Kurth that she didn't match EITHER of them.
It makes it very hard for any tests to be re-run as she insisted that her body be cremated. Anna didn't make anything easy for anyone, but then again, the whole situation wasn't an easy one!

 

[BeatrixFan]

Surely the Orthodox Grand Duchess wouldn't have wanted cremation?

 

[ysbel]

Well the original test results should be available to the public.

It should be a simple matter to determine whether or not Anna Anderson's mtDNA matched Mauer's mtDNA and if it did match it 100% then I would say that is a showstopper for Anna's identity with Anastasia.

I can't fathom how she could be Anastasia if her mtDNA matched Mauer's 100% regardless of what the tests on the Victorian line of descent show.

 

[lexi4]

Well the original test results should be available to the public.

It should be a simple matter to determine whether or not Anna Anderson's mtDNA matched Mauer's mtDNA and if it did match it 100% then I would say that is a showstopper for Anna's identity with Anastasia.

I can't fathom how she could be Anastasia if her mtDNA matched Mauer's 100% regardless of what the tests on the Victorian line of descent show.

While the DNA results for the Imperial Family are public informatio and easy to find, I have never seen the actual test results for Anna Manahan. I have always assumed this was because her test were conducted privately by Marina Botkin Schweitzer & her husband. The sample used for the test was a tissue sample held by the Martha Jefferson Hosptial from a surgery Anna had there. There has been much written about this case. What I have not seen is the actual DNA sequencing reports, which are readily available for the test done on the Imperial Family. That doesn't mean they don't exist, just that I can't find them. It also doesn't mean that I doubt the results. Here is what Peter Gil had to say about the AA DNA tests.

"If one accepts that this sample is from Anna Anderson, then it is almost impossible that she could have been Anastasia."He further stated, "the sample said to have come from Anna Anderson could not be associated with a maternal relative of the empress or Prince Philip. That is definite.

Dr. Gill stated about the Anderson tissue and Karl Maucher, "a one hundred per cent match, an absolute identity. This suggests that Karl Maucher may be a relative of Anna Anderson."

Still, there is controversy. I have no opinion on the matter either way. But I do love a good mystery.

Here is an old article I found.
DNA TEST WILL RESOLVE WOMAN'S CLAIM TO BE DUCHESS ANASTASIA TISSUE TAKEN FROM THE CLAIMANT IN A 1979 SURGERY WILL YIELD GENETIC CLUES.
Lexi

 

[Russophile]

Surely the Orthodox Grand Duchess wouldn't have wanted cremation?

She told author Peter Kurth (If he's wandering around here he will verify) that she didn't want to be a freak show after she passed with them digging her up and reburying, etc. Those are my words, I'm sure she said it differently but it's implied.
And there, Lex, is the rub, "If one ACCEPTS" this tissue as Anna Andersons. . . .
And I do want to accept it, but after reading all manner of things that bring question after question to my mind, I can't be positive she was or wasn't. Too many unanswered questions.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Well I can understand that but I would have thought any daugher of such a pious woman as Alexandra would have felt it worth undergoing the exhumations when the alternative was to destroy her body and face a lifetime in hell.

 

[Russophile]

Well I can understand that but I would have thought any daugher of such a pious woman as Alexandra would have felt it worth undergoing the exhumations when the alternative was to destroy her body and face a lifetime in hell.

Bea, remember, IF (big emphasis here) this was Anastasia, she's already been through hell. . .

 

[BeatrixFan]

Well yes. But you see, the Orthodox strongly condemn cremation as come the day of judgement there's nothing to resurrect. So IF she was Anastasia, that feeling surely wouldn't have left her. Unless she became an athiest which for someone with designs on the Russian throne wouldn't be wise.

 

[Russophile]

Well yes. But you see, the Orthodox strongly condemn cremation as come the day of judgement there's nothing to resurrect. So IF she was Anastasia, that feeling surely wouldn't have left her. Unless she became an athiest which for someone with designs on the Russian throne wouldn't be wise.

I couldn't answer you on this one. I didn't know her, Peter did. And hopefully, if he's around, he can answer that one.

 

[Marengo]

I believe that even at the time of her death the cremation caused some eyebrows to rise as it is really very uncommon with Russian Orthodox people. And I believe that it was done very quickly too, only a few hours after she died. Some believe that this path was chosen so no tests could be done on the body of Ms. Anderson.

 

[lexi4]

She told author Peter Kurth (If he's wandering around here he will verify) that she didn't want to be a freak show after she passed with them digging her up and reburying, etc. Those are my words, I'm sure she said it differently but it's implied.
And there, Lex, is the rub, "If one ACCEPTS" this tissue as Anna Andersons. . . .
And I do want to accept it, but after reading all manner of things that bring question after question to my mind, I can't be positive she was or wasn't. Too many unanswered questions.

I always wondered why he phrased it that way too. It implies doubt. He quotes about the remains of the Imperial Family are far more certain.
Lexi

 

[ysbel]

So, what are the chances that a random piece of tissue taken from the Martha Jefferson hospital would have a 100% match with Karl Maucher though?

That's why I think the positive identification with Maucher's mtDNA is much more of a showstopper than a negative identification with Prince Michael's mtDNA.

For example, if you take the mtDNA from a random member of the general population, the chances would be very high that their mtDNA would not match Prince Michael's. There are 6 billion people in the world and the chances that a random person can match Prince Michael's mtDNA is pretty rare. So if someone's tissue was switched with Anna Anderson's tissue at the hospital a negative mtDNA match wouldn't say very much. Just that the majority of people in the world are not related to Prince Michael.

On the other hand, Prince Michael's mtDNA is no more special or rare than Maucher's mtDNA. It's equally unlikely that a random sample of anyone's mtDNA is going to match Maucher's mtDNA either. Yet the doctor said this tissue sample did match Maucher's mtDNA.

What are the chances that some random sample mismatch from another patient at the Martha Jefferson hospital in the United States would completely match Maucher's mtDNA when Maucher was presumably in Germany and just happened to be the grandnephew of Franziska Schanzkowska, the factory worker that the German newspapers had identified in the 20s as being the true identity of Anna Anderson? One would expect a random tissue sample from the hospital to no more match Maucher's mtDNA than it would match Prince Michael's. However, the doctor did say the tissue matched Maucher's mtDNA.

So what if you asked the question the other way around? If a sample from the Martha Jefferson hospital matched Karl Maucher, what would be the probability it would be Anna Anderson's? Of all the patients that ever were admitted in the Martha Jefferson hospital and had operations, Anna Anderson has two claims to her identity, the first that she is Anastasia, the second that she was the factory worker Franziska Schanzkowska whose grandnephew is Karl Maucher. What are the chances that another random patient has a closer relation to Karl Maucher than Fraziska Schanzkowska? Equally unlikely.

Therefore by process of elimination, the positive identification with Maucher's mtDNA should identify the mtDNA as Anna Anderson's and together with the original German investigations in the 20s conclude that Anna Anderson was most probably Franziska Schanzkowska but definitely not Anastasia.

 

[Russophile]

Indeed, you would have to do so much work to get that to gell, its almost unheard of. But! (There's that "But" again!) All those things that made Anna/Anastasia, she spoke languages, this Franziska didn't, Anastasia remembered things that weren't talked about outside the family. The DNA was done at a time where it was more fallible. And on and on and on and on
I swear I'm going to be committed over this thing!!

 

[lexi4]

You are correct Ysebl. But, to play devil's advocate, when the sample was first requested from Martha Jefferson Hospital, the hospital said they didn't have the tissue. It was found later. (I like espinoage and mysteries ) That part has always been curious to me. I have to say that I am writing this from memory and can't tell you much in the way of dates and sources. But if it is important to the discussion, I'll see if I can find that stuff.
Lexi

 

[Ex-Princess Lisa]

That's why I think the positive identification with Maucher's mtDNA is much more of a showstopper than a negative identification with Prince Michael's mtDNA.

Why do you keep talking about Prince Michaels mtDNA? I presume you mean Prince Michael of Kent.

Prince Michaels mtDNA has nothing to do with the mtDNA of the Imperial Family. His mtDNA was not compared against the Tsars mtDNA, because his is a completely different family line.
I have stated before and I will state it again NICHOLAS II MTDNA WAS COMPARED TO HIS BROTHER GEORGE, TIHON (SON OF OLGA) AND JAMES CARNEGIE 3RD DUKE OF FIFE.

The Tsars mtDNA was not compared to Prince Michael of Kent.

In what way do you think Prince Michaels mtDNA was used for identification of the Imperial family?

His mtDNA cannot have been used for comparison with Alixs mtDNA either, because yet again it seems they have a completely different family line.
Prince Michael of Kents mother was Princess Marina of Kent, her mothers mothers mother was Augusta of Reuss-Kostritz.
Thats the way mtDNA works, it is passed down from mother to daughter.
Alixs mothers mother was Queen Victoria.
As far as I know Queen Victoria and Augusta of Reuss-Kostritz were a completely different female line, so testing their descendents for mtDNA matches is pointless.

I do know how mtDNA testing works, I've had my mtDNA tested.

 

[ysbel]

Why do you keep talking about Prince Michaels mtDNA? I presume you mean Prince Michael of Kent.

Yes, that was my understanding. However, it does make more sense to test with a tissue from George, Nicholas' deceased brother because he is a closer relation. I do remember reading that Prince Michael's DNA was used for testing with the Romanovs. Do we know exactly whose DNA Anderson's DNA was matched with to test to determine her identity with Anastasia and what kind of test it was? mtDNA or other?

However, our member Franziska mentioned that Maucher's mtDNA matched Anna Anderson's, that DNA match, if accurate, seems more signficant than the mismatch with the Victorian line of descent.

Thanks for the clarification.

All those things that made Anna/Anastasia, she spoke languages, this Franziska didn't, Anastasia remembered things that weren't talked about outside the family. The DNA was done at a time where it was more fallible. And on and on and on and on

Well I don't know exactly when the DNA test was done but I remember reading about it and I seem to remember that it was done after the U.S. criminal courts started to allow DNA as evidence to convict or exonerate a suspect of a serious crime. So if it was done at a time when the U.S. courts were allowing DNA as evidence then the state of DNA testing at that time then I would say the DNA results were reliable enough to prove or disprove identity. In general, even accounting for the infant state of DNA testing at that time, I would generally place more weight on the DNA results than the number of languages she spoke because people can pick up and learn new languages in their adulthood (I learned 2 languages after I was 21 in the space of a year).

You are correct Ysebl. But, to play devil's advocate, when the sample was first requested from Martha Jefferson Hospital, the hospital said they didn't have the tissue. It was found later. (I like espinoage and mysteries ) That part has always been curious to me. I have to say that I am writing this from memory and can't tell you much in the way of dates and sources. But if it is important to the discussion, I'll see if I can find that stuff.
Lexi

Lexi, if you could find that information it would be great. The source of the DNA tissue is very important when discussing the reliability of the tests.

 

[Marengo]

Well, that can all be very suspicious and the familymembers might have actually believed that Anna Anderson was Anastasia but didn't confess this out of selfinterest. But in the end does it matter? The DNA results have been clear enough, no? Of course there is a microscopic chance that these results are wrong etc. but still... it usually is best to follow the most logical option, which in this case is that Anna Anderson could not have been Grand Duchess Anastasia. And that doesn't say anything about her human qualities, she could have been a saint or a devil, but that would have no effect on DNA.

 

[ysbel]

Although this is probably the most famous unknown identity of the 20th century, it is by no means the only one. I live in New York only a couple of blocks from a major hospital where doctors have to decipher the identities of a lot of unidentified bodies and anonymous homeless persons who are so far out on drugs, they can give no clue to their identities. And a lot of times the families that the evidence points to, don't want to admit that the homeless person is from their families so they are very unhelpful to the authorities.

Yet unknown persons get their identities back all the time and this case should not be any different than any other, no matter how famous it is. I think scientists were even able to identify one of the unknown soldiers in a tomb of the unknown soldier from WWI who died at about the same time as the Romanovs.

So if modern scientists are able to identify an unknown soldier from a tomb from 80 years ago, the mystery of Anna Anderson really shouldn't be a mystery at all.

And that doesn't say anything about her human qualities, she could have been a saint or a devil, but that would have no effect on DNA.

I have to agree with this. I don't know enough about DNA technology but I'm willing to learn. However, I would say all other things being equal, DNA should carry more weight than the languages a person speaks or whether the Imperial family said one thing in public and one thing in private.

Precisely because the evidence is impersonal, it doesn't have a motive to make us believe one thing or another.

 

[plkbvt]

Except that you accept it telling us one thing or the other ... so ... now what? pk

 

[plkbvt]

Well yes. But you see, the Orthodox strongly condemn cremation as come the day of judgement there's nothing to resurrect. So IF she was Anastasia, that feeling surely wouldn't have left her. Unless she became an athiest which for someone with designs on the Russian throne wouldn't be wise.

AA ceased to be Orthodox in the late 1920s, when the Orthodox Church declared her a fraud. Make of this what you will, but her attitude to the Church was the same as her (ultimate) attitude toward the Romanov survivors. She rejected them all (should she not have had the right to do that? -- as a human being, I mean). I doubt that you, or I, or almost anyone would behave differently. pk

 

[ysbel]

Except that you accept it telling us one thing or the other ... so ... now what? pk

I didn't say Amen so I think you misquoted me. I don't understand your question.