Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ferrymansdaughter]

I'm not saying they're crooks, just suggesting possibilities to explain their comments, because obviously they were mistaken. Even if you don't believe the DNA tests on AA, the final nail in the claim's coffin is that the last two bodies have been found. So no matter what anyone said or thought decades ago, it no longer matters. AN did not survive, so AA was not her.

Tests have not yet been completed and I find it hard to believe that two bodies could only produce 40 odd bones between them instead of nearly 300 each.

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

Also re the head injuries - and by the way for those of you on the "other side" as it were, I know that the fact she had head injuries does not actually prove she was AA.​

here is part of the testimony of Dr Rudnev, given in Berlin in March 1926, when he refers to the operation he performed on the tubercular bone in her arm (Quoted below - my emphasis on the reference to head injuries which shows she also had damage to the right side of her head​

I proposed an operation to save her life, and, if possible, her arm, for the question of amputation was not remote. The patient was transferred to the Mommsen Sanatorium, where, under chloroform, I cut away all the infected tissue, and with a sharp spoon scraped out the purulent matter which lay between the muscles and the bones, from which I also took away some of the infected parts. I then disinfected every part with iodine, and drained the arm with iodoform muslin.
Under the anæsthetic, the patient raved in English. Before the operation, I spoke to her in Russian, and she answered everything in German.
For many weeks before and after the operation she could not get on without injections of morphine and trivalin.
When I examined the patient thoroughly, I found a scar on the bone in front of the breast, which was there as a consequence of tubercular disease, particulars of which were given to me by the principal medical officer of the Westend Hospital. In the region of the temple and the occiput on the right, there were cicatrizations of the bone which, however, could not, anatomically, have originated in a tubercular disease, but as the bone was damaged, they were in the nature of scars resulting from heavy blows with a hard substance.
The X-ray photograph shows that the bone is damaged, and that there had been a hæmorrage.
The patient is very anæmic and emaciated, like a skeleton covered only with skin, and withoyut any fat whatever; in the lower side of the left lung there are slight sounds due to pleurisy.
On the left knee there are marks made by punctures for the purpose of curing an inflammation of the knee.
In the right foot I found a serious deformity; this was of a hereditary nature, and such that the big toe was bent right in towards the middle and formed a ball. ​

http://www.braininjury.com/symptoms.html​

Occipital Lobes: most posterior, at the back of the head​

• Defects in vision (Visual Field Cuts).
• Difficulty with locating objects in environment.
• Difficulty with identifying colors (Color Agnosia).
• Production of hallucinations.
• Visual illusions - inaccurately seeing objects.
• Word blindness - inability to recognize words.
• Difficulty in recognizing drawn objects.
• Inability to recognize the movement of object (Movement Agnosia).
• Difficulties with reading and writing.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I'm not saying they're crooks, just suggesting possibilities to explain their comments, because obviously they were mistaken. Even if you don't believe the DNA tests on AA, the final nail in the claim's coffin is that the last two bodies have been found. So no matter what anyone said or thought decades ago, it no longer matters. AN did not survive, so AA was not her.

Tests have not yet been completed and I find it hard to believe that two bodies could only produce 40 odd bones between them instead of nearly 300 each.

After being burned and buried in mud for 90 years, I'm surprised there was that much left!

Actually the results are in, and they have been leaked to the press. However the scientists involved want time to complete writing their official results and peer reviews so their work can be (hopefully) above reproach and (hopefully) finally end all survivor myths. The final report is due later this month.

So do you believe both sets of DNA tests were suspicious, the AA DNA tests and now these bones? What would be the purpose for anyone to intentionally falsify them? How many people do AA supporters think are in on this conspiracy and what is their motive? The entire notion is preposterous!

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Temporal Lobes: side of head above ears​

• Difficulty in recognizing faces (Prosopagnosia).
• Difficulty in understanding spoken words (Wernicke's Aphasia).
• Disturbance with selective attention to what we see and hear.
• Difficulty with identification of, and verbalization about objects.
• Short term memory loss.
• Interference with long term memory.
• Increased and decreased interest in sexual behavior.
• Inability to catagorize objects (Categorization).
• Right lobe damage can cause persistent talking.
• Increased aggressive behavior.

Yes, a lot of that sounds just like AA/FS who suffered head injuries during the grenade explosion at the factory where she worked.

 

[Menarue]

I have suffered from prosopagnosia all my life, you don´t need to have any accident (except may birth) to suffer from that. Then if you really didn´t know the people it would be a good excuse wouldn´t it?

 

[Menarue]

Oh well time will tell ----- perhaps.

 

[ChatNoir]

Don't rape, and pregnancy, come from sexual relations? Who else could have raped her in captivity? I gave you what you asked for. (of course we all know that there is no way AA was raped by guards since she wasn't AN and wasn't in Siberia)

Wasn't she, ahem, taken advantage of by her rescuer, aka Alexander Chaikovski?

 

[ChatNoir]

But Chat, it all changed with the DNA results. Now because of those, and now the findings of the last two missing children, we know for sure there were no survivors. This means AA wasn't AN. So saying that you still want to consider the old lists and quotes as evidence alongside the DNA just isn't realistic.

Look at some of those recent stories where men have been freed from prison after many years when DNA testing proved a different person committed the crime. This has become almost common. In every one of those mens' trials that originally convicted them, there were people swearing they saw them at the crime scene, even picking them out of a lineup, a witness may say they know it was him, and this at one time convinced a jury and a judge and put him in jail. But once the DNA tests come in, they know for sure that it wasn't him who did the crime, and that all the other testimony sworn, signed, whatever, had to be wrong, or lies, or honest mistakes, because the DNA proved he wasn't really there no matter what those witnesses thought they saw. Many of these cases involve rape, and the woman who was raped was so certain she had found her attacker that she testified on the witness stand, but, it turned out she was wrong. See, the deal is, DNA OVERRULES ALL OTHER EVIDENCE! Once we have DNA results, all the other evidence no longer matters. You may not like it but that's how it works.

You may also try to claim that the DNA was switched or wrong. Funny thing is, I have never seen any of those criminals who did match who got the other man off the hook, or any of the 'baby daddies' who get stuck with 18 years of child support to a woman they can't stand ever try to doubt the DNA, and it affects their lives directly. So why is it so important to you that AA be AN that you would resort to such an extreme position?

It's not so important to me that AA be AN, what is important to me, is that you and others get to know the real story. From what I have seen posted on this forum and others, I realize that very, very few people really know anything about AA.

 

[ChatNoir]

I'm not saying they're crooks, just suggesting possibilities to explain their comments, because obviously they were mistaken. Even if you don't believe the DNA tests on AA, the final nail in the claim's coffin is that the last two bodies have been found. So no matter what anyone said or thought decades ago, it no longer matters. AN did not survive, so AA was not her.

I know that there are those who doubt the new findings and think it's all a setup by the Russian gov't, but those same people believe the DNA was switched or otherwise intentionally rigged. What are the chances by the standards of the universe that either of those is true, much less both? When the alternatives become that desperate, the time to admit she wasn't AN and move has come.

And when will we have the results of the findings a year ago?

 

[ChatNoir]

Yes, a lot of that sounds just like AA/FS who suffered head injuries during the grenade explosion at the factory where she worked.

From the medical report from the AEG we know that FS was not wounded in the explosion. This was also confirmed by her family.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

From the medical report from the AEG we know that FS was not wounded in the explosion. This was also confirmed by her family.

We've been through this before. PROVE IT. Where is this record? It's been alleged by AA supporters, yet no proof can be produced other than someone said someone saw it. The family comment doesn't mean a thing, for two reasons- one they may not know since she wasn't living at home and two once they denied her for everyone's own good, they had to keep it up. I'll be waiting for your source. Here's mine.

Massie page 249 (his records probably came from Berenberg-Gossler)

n 1914, shortly before the outbreak of the First World War, Franziska, at age eighteen, left the Polish provinces for Berlin. She worked as a waitress, met a young man, and became engaged. Before she could marry, her fiance was called up for military service. Franziska began working in a munitions factory. In 1916, the young man was killed on the western front. Soon afterward, Franziska let a grenade slip from her hands on the assembly line. It exploded nearby, inflicting splinter wounds on her head and other parts of her body and eviscerating a foreman, who died before her eyes. She was sent to a sanitarium, where her physical injuries healed but the shock remained. Franziska was declared "not cured, but not dangerous," and discharged.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I'm sure you didn't,

I simply want to know what you have read since If you haven't read the whole book you could be taking the quotes completely out of context.

Oh, dear. In that case we all might as well stop posting quotes and page numbers as references right now! It's useless to try to convince anyone that way. What good does it do to show book passages to people as evidence then? Just tell them to read the entire book, all the books, and then get back to you!

 

[Anna was Franziska]

It's not so important to me that AA be AN, what is important to me, is that you and others get to know the real story. From what I have seen posted on this forum and others, I realize that very, very few people really know anything about AA.

Others would say we know more, because we are aware she's been proven not to be AN. THAT is the 'real story.'

 

[ChatNoir]

We've been through this before. PROVE IT. Where is this record? It's been alleged by AA supporters, yet no proof can be produced other than someone said someone saw it. The family comment doesn't mean a thing, for two reasons- one they may not know since she wasn't living at home and two once they denied her for everyone's own good, they had to keep it up. I'll be waiting for your source. Here's mine.

Massie page 249 (his records probably came from Berenberg-Gossler)

n 1914, shortly before the outbreak of the First World War, Franziska, at age eighteen, left the Polish provinces for Berlin. She worked as a waitress, met a young man, and became engaged. Before she could marry, her fiance was called up for military service. Franziska began working in a munitions factory. In 1916, the young man was killed on the western front. Soon afterward, Franziska let a grenade slip from her hands on the assembly line. It exploded nearby, inflicting splinter wounds on her head and other parts of her body and eviscerating a foreman, who died before her eyes. She was sent to a sanitarium, where her physical injuries healed but the shock remained. Franziska was declared "not cured, but not dangerous," and discharged.

I know who has the report, and it will be published in time. In the meantime, we have the family's statements that FS received no wounds in the explosion. My goodness, she was off to the asparagus farm, planting asparagus, before her disappearance. No health problems there, apparently. Besides, there is a long distance between some splinter wounds and the damages done to AA.
And Massie's records PROBABLY came from Berenberg Gossler? You mean he did not disclose his sources? So we have absolutely NO confirmed sources telling us that FS was injured.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I know who has the report, and it will be published in time.

That doesn't prove much, does it? I know who you mean, and the person has never proven it and become indignant when asked about it. I am afraid I am more than skeptical. What would you do if I told you I had proof of something, and I would someday maybe publish it in a book? Would you accept that? Of course not, so why should I? If this thing exists, produce it or stop quoting it as a 'fact!' You wouldn't let me get away with that!

And Massie's records PROBABLY came from Berenberg Gossler? You mean he did not disclose his sources? So we have absolutely NO confirmed sources telling us that FS was injured.

Massie's acknowledgements credit Berenberg-Gossler's unpublished memoirs as his sources on FS and AA. And you are a bold one to say 'probably' when you have less than a 'maybe' on your alleged record!

The original source was of course the investigation of Ernie's detective. This site mentions it (scroll down the page until you get to 1928)

6 February in History

The Grand Duke of Hesse, Alexandra's brother and Anastasia's uncle, was a major critic of this effort, and he hired a private investigator to determine Anastasia Tschaikovsky's true identity. The investigator announced that she was in fact Franziska Schanzkowska, a Polish-German factory worker from Pomerania who had disappeared in 1920. Schanzkowska had a history of mental instability and was injured in a factory explosion in 1916, which accounted for the scars.

later in that story:

In 1994, American and English scientists sought to answer this question once and for all. Using a tissue sample of Anderson's recovered from a Virginia hospital, the English team compared her mtDNA with that of the Romanovs. Simultaneously, an American team compared the mtDNA found in a strand of her hair. Both teams came to the same decisive conclusion: Anna Anderson was not a Romanov.
Later, the scientists compared Anna Anderson's mtDNA with that of Karl Maucher, a great nephew of Franziska Schanzkowska. The DNA was a match, finally proving the theory put forth by a German investigator in the 1920s. One of the great mysteries of the 20th century was solved.
Franziska Schanzkowska “Anna Anderson” died in Charlottesville, Virginia on 04 February 1984. The real Anastasia Nikolayevna was born on 18 June (05 June Julian) 1901.

(just another example of how AA being FS is widespread accepted common knowledge now save conspiracy theorists)

 

[ChatNoir]

That doesn't prove much, does it? I know who you mean, and the person has never proven it and become indignant when asked about it. I am afraid I am more than skeptical. What would you do if I told you I had proof of something, and I would someday maybe publish it in a book? Would you accept that? Of course not, so why should I? If this thing exists, produce it or stop quoting it as a 'fact!' You wouldn't let me get away with that!

As I told you, we have Dr. Völler's report stating that Felix Schanzkowski told him that FS received no bodily injuries in the explosion at the AEG factory.

Massie's acknowledgements credit Berenberg-Gossler's unpublished memoirs as his sources on FS and AA. And you are a bold one to say 'probably' when you have less than a 'maybe' on your alleged record!

As I showed you, I do have a confirmed source. And where did Berenberg Gossler get his info on FS?

The original source was of course the investigation of Ernie's detective. This site mentions it (scroll down the page until you get to 1928)

And we all know where HE got his info from: Miss Doris Wingender. At a price of 1500 DM.

6 February in History

The Grand Duke of Hesse, Alexandra's brother and Anastasia's uncle, was a major critic of this effort, and he hired a private investigator to determine Anastasia Tschaikovsky's true identity. The investigator announced that she was in fact Franziska Schanzkowska, a Polish-German factory worker from Pomerania who had disappeared in 1920. Schanzkowska had a history of mental instability and was injured in a factory explosion in 1916, which accounted for the scars.

Mental instability. Hmmmm, seems like she could not have been AA after all, every doctor who examined her, came to the conclusion that there was nothing wrong with her mentally. And as I have said before, the damages done to AA could not have been caused by a few splinters, even if FS had received damages.

later in that story:

In 1994, American and English scientists sought to answer this question once and for all. Using a tissue sample of Anderson's recovered from a Virginia hospital, the English team compared her mtDNA with that of the Romanovs. Simultaneously, an American team compared the mtDNA found in a strand of her hair. Both teams came to the same decisive conclusion: Anna Anderson was not a Romanov.
Later, the scientists compared Anna Anderson's mtDNA with that of Karl Maucher, a great nephew of Franziska Schanzkowska. The DNA was a match, finally proving the theory put forth by a German investigator in the 1920s. One of the great mysteries of the 20th century was solved.
Franziska Schanzkowska “Anna Anderson” died in Charlottesville, Virginia on 04 February 1984. The real Anastasia Nikolayevna was born on 18 June (05 June Julian) 1901.

(just another example of how AA being FS is widespread accepted common knowledge now save conspiracy theorists)

As Dr. Gill said: The putative sample from AA.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

As I told you, we have Dr. Völler's report stating that Felix Schanzkowski told him that FS received no bodily injuries in the explosion at the AEG factory.

He also stated FS was not his sister when he knew she was. Look once a guy denies his sister, he's not going to be stupid enough to paint a trail to his door by giving away things that describe the 'unknown' as her! And it is also possible he didn't see her since she was hurt and didn't know.

As I showed you, I do have a confirmed source. And where did Berenberg Gossler get his info on FS?

You didn't show me ANYTHING! You said you heard about it and it would be published 'someday.' You know you wouldn't accept such balderdash from me so don't even expect anyone else to buy it. How dare you doubt Berenberg-Gossler and Massie when you have nothing! What I showed you has been in books and other places, like the site I showed you. I have the source this time and you don't!

And we all know where HE got his info from: Miss Doris Wingender. At a price of 1500 DM.

He could very well have got it from the factory itself. After all back then it was still standing and in business and it hadn't been that long. I'm sure Darmstadt's papers tell how they found out and so do BG's papers but of course no one who wants to prove AA was AN is going to go looking for such things. And being paid doesn't mean she lied, she wanted money for her troubles since she had valuable info and she was poor. We'll never know how many of AA's supporters may have been 'paid off' or promised shares of Grandandor!

Mental instability. Hmmmm, seems like she could not have been AA after all, every doctor who examined her, came to the conclusion that there was nothing wrong with her mentally.

Don't forget AA was in several sanitoriums in her life. People with no mental problems don't get sent to those. Another big sign of being mental is pretending to be a royal figure!

And as I have said before, the damages done to AA could not have been caused by a few splinters, even if FS had received damages.

A few splinters? The man next to her was pulverized to pieces! She'd have gotten much more than splinters!

As Dr. Gill said: The putative sample from AA.

Dr. Gill proved AA not to be AN and the rest of the world accepts it, catch up with us.

 

[ChatNoir]

He also stated FS was not his sister when he knew she was. Look once a guy denies his sister, he's not going to be stupid enough to paint a trail to his door by giving away things that describe the 'unknown' as her! And it is also possible he didn't see her since she was hurt and didn't know.

Felix stated to Dr. Völler that the photos of AA did not look like his sister. He also pointed out that she had no deformities of her feet and scars on her body. All this before he met AA. On seeing her, he apparently saw a likeness, but as he said: "There is a resemblance when looking from the front, but not from the side." And isn't it rather strange that Knopf did not arrange a meeting with Felix?

You didn't show me ANYTHING! You said you heard about it and it would be published 'someday.' You know you wouldn't accept such balderdash from me so don't even expect anyone else to buy it. How dare you doubt Berenberg-Gossler and Massie when you have nothing! What I showed you has been in books and other places, like the site I showed you. I have the source this time and you don't!

As I told you, we have Felix statement to Dr. Völler. I know you don't like it, but that's beside the point. Also, a bit from Harriet Rathlef Keilmann's book:
I considered it my duty to have inquiries made, through a private detective, in Farther Pomerania as well, where the mother of the missing Shantskovski lives, and there I learned the following: The daughter Frantsiska has been regarded by the family not merely as missing since 1920, but as one of the victims of the mass-murderer Grossman. The Shantskovski family deny any striking bodily features, as for instance wounds or mutilated feet. They deny that Frantsiska ever received a fractured skull or any sort of injury when there was an explosion (1916) at the A.E.G., where she was working. On that occasion she simply received a severe nervous shock, with the result that she went into an asylum, ans was later returned to the care of her mother as a hopeless, but harmless, lunatic. According to her family's statements, Frantsiska Shantskovski wore shoes size 39, while the invalid at Seeon wears size 36.

He could very well have got it from the factory itself. After all back then it was still standing and in business and it hadn't been that long. I'm sure Darmstadt's papers tell how they found out and so do BG's papers but of course no one who wants to prove AA was AN is going to go looking for such things.

Believe you me, if the opposition really had HAD any evidence showing that AA and FS were identical, they would have used it. But all they could present in court, was Doris Wingender and doctored photos.

And being paid doesn't mean she lied, she wanted money for her troubles since she had valuable info and she was poor. We'll never know how many of AA's supporters may have been 'paid off' or promised shares of Grandandor!

She was poor? According to Botkin, she was "well dressed" and "surprisingly good looking." "She could not even answer questions pertaining to what she claimed to have been her own experiences without consulting a notebook. The Police Inspector adroitly manæuvred her into letting him see that notebook, and in it we discovered notes dictated by the same Detective Knopf. We caught her in any number inconsistenscies and some completely absurd statements." (Recorded in two protocols of May 19th and May 21st, 1927)

Don't forget AA was in several sanitoriums in her life. People with no mental problems don't get sent to those. Another big sign of being mental is pretending to be a royal figure!

And don't forget that the reason for being sent to Dalldorf, was simply because the Berlin Police did not know what to do with her. Not because she was mentally ill. Later, in New York, she was committed to "Four Winds" by three doctors who never examined her. They were just paid handsomely by the Jennings family to sign the necessary papers. When she later ended up at Ilten in Germany, she was immediately told that she was free to go, there was nothing mentally wrong with her.

A few splinters? The man next to her was pulverized to pieces! She'd have gotten much more than splinters!

The man next to her? How do we know he was next to her? That grenade could have rolled anywhere before it went off.

Dr. Gill proved AA not to be AN and the rest of the world accepts it, catch up with us.

Then why don't we have a legal ruling?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Felix stated to Dr. Völler that the photos of AA did not look like his sister.

Klier and Mingay wrote in their book "The Quest for Anastasia" that "The remaining Schanzkowskis are quite suspicious of investigators into the Anna Anderson case. Felix´s daughter has told reporters that her father talked about his sister Franziska with pride, saying she got away and made a new and successful life for herself as Anna Anderson. Margarete Ellerik,the daughter of Gertrude who tried to make Anna admit to being a Schanzkowska,generally refuses to have anything to do with investigators and is apparently afraid that the family will be prosecuted for Anna´s activities."

The lawyer Hans-Herman Krampff (colleague of Dr. Berenberg- Gossler, both attorneys opposing Anderson's claim in the 1950s) wrote to Mrs Gertrude Ellerik the 11 April 1959: "The research made in the meantime has resulted that at the confrotation with Mrs Anderson in 1938 you were not the only one who recognized her as your sister Franziska. Your brothers and sisters also did but abstained to say so in order not to make obstacles of the career of their sister. Afterwards your sister Maria has died and your brother Valerian lives in Poland. So it´s only you and your brother Felix left who can be heard at the trial in Hamburg. I would like to inform you that you have nothing to fear if you told the truth now since the time of a criminal act has expired". (From the French journalist Dominique Auclère´s book Anastasia Qui Etes-Vous?)

There is also a letter quoted in the French jounalist Dominique Auclere´s book Anastasia Qui etes-vous? from Margarete Ellerik to her uncle Felix : "So dear uncle...something new. It´s about your sister Franziska. They want to know a lot of things again. Dear uncle, you remember what you have said from the beginning, stick to this and nothing else! Who could imagine this would come up again... So dear uncle... now you know what to do..." Auclere wrote that she quoted from her memory but that the original could be found in the archive of the tribunal or the lawyers. This certainly points to the conclusion that they knew she was Franziska but said something else in order not to ruin her "career". They did what they thought was best for her, and themselves.

In 1959 Margarete sent her uncle a letter urging him to recognize that his sister Franziska was Anna Anderson. "It's not everyone who can say he has a full-blooded sister whom powerful and important people have mistaken for decades as the daughter of the Tsar!"

Though George Leuchtenberg was one of Anderson's strongest supporters, his son, Dmitry, was not convinced and believed in the Franziska Schanzkowska theory. Anderson was staying with his family in 1927 when the first meeting between the siblings took place. Dmitry was present at the confrontation in Wasserburg with Felix Schanzkowsky and that he was sure she recognized him on sight.

Also, a bit from Harriet Rathlef Keilmann's book:
I considered it my duty to have inquiries made, through a private detective, in Farther Pomerania as well, where the mother of the missing Shantskovski lives, and there I learned the following: The daughter Frantsiska has been regarded by the family not merely as missing since 1920, but as one of the victims of the mass-murderer Grossman. The Shantskovski family deny any striking bodily features, as for instance wounds or mutilated feet. They deny that Frantsiska ever received a fractured skull or any sort of injury when there was an explosion (1916) at the A.E.G., where she was working.

You know I am suspicious of Rathlef. We will never know if this is true, or if they were denying her, or even if they knew what injuries she had since she wasn't home. This does prove that the story of the explosion at the factory was out there that soon, I thought it was probably brought out by Knopf and published in German newspapers.

On that occasion she simply received a severe nervous shock,

From which she never recovered

with the result that she went into an asylum,

first of many in her long life

a hopeless, but harmless, lunatic.

That's our AA!

According to her family's statements, Frantsiska Shantskovski wore shoes size 39, while the invalid at Seeon wears size 36.

Oh so that's where the famous shoe story came from! Anyway it doesn't prove anything. For a test, I recently asked my brother and other family members my shoe size, no one got it right. Besides foot sizes change and shoes run large or small depending on brands and material. Useless.

Believe you me, if the opposition really had HAD any evidence showing that AA and FS were identical, they would have used it.

Oh, if only we'd had the trial in 1994!

We caught her in any number inconsistenscies and some completely absurd statements."

Sounds like the whole AA affair!

They were just paid handsomely by the Jennings family to sign the necessary papers.

Are you accusing the Jennings of paying people off to commit her?

The man next to her? How do we know he was next to her? That grenade could have rolled anywhere before it went off.

Pure speculation!

Then why don't we have a legal ruling?

Because no one has bothered to take it to court. I'm sure if the tests had been in AA's favor the Schweitzers would have done so.

 

[ChatNoir]

Klier and Mingay wrote in their book "The Quest for Anastasia" that "The remaining Schanzkowskis are quite suspicious of investigators into the Anna Anderson case. Felix´s daughter has told reporters that her father talked about his sister Franziska with pride, saying she got away and made a new and successful life for herself as Anna Anderson. Margarete Ellerik,the daughter of Gertrude who tried to make Anna admit to being a Schanzkowska,generally refuses to have anything to do with investigators and is apparently afraid that the family will be prosecuted for Anna´s activities."

And none of these ladies ever met FS or AA. And you are talking hearsay!

The lawyer Hans-Herman Krampff (colleague of Dr. Berenberg- Gossler, both attorneys opposing Anderson's claim in the 1950s) wrote to Mrs Gertrude Ellerik the 11 April 1959: "The research made in the meantime has resulted that at the confrotation with Mrs Anderson in 1938 you were not the only one who recognized her as your sister Franziska. Your brothers and sisters also did but abstained to say so in order not to make obstacles of the career of their sister. Afterwards your sister Maria has died and your brother Valerian lives in Poland. So it´s only you and your brother Felix left who can be heard at the trial in Hamburg. I would like to inform you that you have nothing to fear if you told the truth now since the time of a criminal act has expired". (From the French journalist Dominique Auclère´s book Anastasia Qui Etes-Vous?)

And why did they not "tell the truth"? Probably because they did so the first time.

There is also a letter quoted in the French jounalist Dominique Auclere´s book Anastasia Qui etes-vous? from Margarete Ellerik to her uncle Felix : "So dear uncle...something new. It´s about your sister Franziska. They want to know a lot of things again. Dear uncle, you remember what you have said from the beginning, stick to this and nothing else! Who could imagine this would come up again... So dear uncle... now you know what to do..." Auclere wrote that she quoted from her memory but that the original could be found in the archive of the tribunal or the lawyers. This certainly points to the conclusion that they knew she was Franziska but said something else in order not to ruin her "career". They did what they thought was best for her, and themselves.

"Who could imagine this would come up again?" Well, one thing is for sure, if AA was FS, they should have known very, very well that "this would come up again".

In 1959 Margarete sent her uncle a letter urging him to recognize that his sister Franziska was Anna Anderson. "It's not everyone who can say he has a full-blooded sister whom powerful and important people have mistaken for decades as the daughter of the Tsar!"

Indeed. But AA was not FS, so her pleading was in vain.

Though George Leuchtenberg was one of Anderson's strongest supporters, his son, Dmitry, was not convinced and believed in the Franziska Schanzkowska theory. Anderson was staying with his family in 1927 when the first meeting between the siblings took place. Dmitry was present at the confrontation in Wasserburg with Felix Schanzkowsky and that he was sure she recognized him on sight.

The good Dmitri has also made some other statements about AA that do not measure up.

You know I am suspicious of Rathlef.

You are suspicious of everybody that speaks in AA's favor.

We will never know if this is true, or if they were denying her, or even if they knew what injuries she had since she wasn't home. This does prove that the story of the explosion at the factory was out there that soon, I thought it was probably brought out by Knopf and published in German newspapers.

I think we will since this coincides with Felix's testimony.

From which she never recovered

FS probably not. AA was found mentally sane by all her doctors.

first of many in her long life

Do you remember the three nurses who testified that FS had been a patient in the asylum where they worked, for 5 years?

That's our AA!

What inconsistencies? Please explain.

Oh so that's where the famous shoe story came from! Anyway it doesn't prove anything. For a test, I recently asked my brother and other family members my shoe size, no one got it right. Besides foot sizes change and shoes run large or small depending on brands and material. Useless.

But nevertheless, there it is.

Oh, if only we'd had the trial in 1994!

Still no proof of AA being FS.

Are you accusing the Jennings of paying people off to commit her?

Peter Kurth, page 252

Pure speculation!

I don't think so, seeing that she was not wounded.

Because no one has bothered to take it to court. I'm sure if the tests had been in AA's favor the Schweitzers would have done so.

If there had been enough evidence, we would have had a legal ruling long time ago.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

And none of these ladies ever met FS or AA. And you are talking hearsay!

Obviously they had heard the situation being discussed at home growing up. Don't you know a lot about old family members that way? I do.

Indeed. But AA was not FS, so her pleading was in vain.

Yes she was.

The good Dmitri has also made some other statements about AA that do not measure up.

Of course you don't believe people who 'discredit' AA.

You are suspicious of everybody that speaks in AA's favor.

Funny I was just saying....(see above)

AA was found mentally sane by all her doctors.

Sane people don't get sent to as many sanatoria/asylums that she did.

Do you remember the three nurses who testified that FS had been a patient in the asylum where they worked, for 5 years?

Clearly, they were mistaken, at the least. There are no records. If they saw FS in an asylum, it was AA because they are the same person.

Still no proof of AA being FS.

In your realm of fantasy only.

I don't think so, seeing that she was not wounded.

You do not know this, cannot prove his, and have no idea where the grenade rolled. Massie said she 'dropped' it meaning it landed by her feet.

If there had been enough evidence, we would have had a legal ruling long time ago.

It's commonly accepted in the mediaa, historic and scientific communities. Who would pay to take it court? Nobody cares, because they already know.

 

[ChatNoir]

Obviously they had heard the situation being discussed at home growing up. Don't you know a lot about old family members that way? I do.

I am sure you do. And remember, miss Ellerik always wanted money for her "memories". Just like miss Wingender.

Of course you don't believe people who 'discredit' AA.

I just check their credentials. Nothing wrong in that.

Sane people don't get sent to as many sanatoria/asylums that she did.

Well, the first time they had no idea what to do with her, the second time she was committed by bribed doctors, and the third time they did not want her. Think about it.

Clearly, they were mistaken, at the least. There are no records. If they saw FS in an asylum, it was AA because they are the same person.

Well, they recognized her from the photo in the paper. The FS photo, I mean. And they did not "see" her, they were her caretakers. For 5 years.

You do not know this, cannot prove his, and have no idea where the grenade rolled. Massie said she 'dropped' it meaning it landed by her feet.

If that grenade exploded by her feet, we would not have had FS with us for much longer.

It's commonly accepted in the mediaa, historic and scientific communities. Who would pay to take it court? Nobody cares, because they already know.

So why are you fighting so hard if you really are all that convinced? Seems to me that you need validation.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Well, the first time they had no idea what to do with her, the second time she was committed by bribed doctors, and the third time they did not want her. Think about it.

There still has to be a reason a person is put in that many times. She was still worried about it when she was old which is why Manahan kidnapped her.

Well, they recognized her from the photo in the paper. The FS photo, I mean. And they did not "see" her, they were her caretakers. For 5 years.

It was the drawing in profile that doesn't look like her. They were mistaken.

If that grenade exploded by her feet, we would not have had FS with us for much longer.

Well you've been trying to get rid of her..

So why are you fighting so hard if you really are all that convinced? Seems to me that you need validation.

I need to convince YOU!

 

[ChatNoir]

There still has to be a reason a person is put in that many times. She was still worried about it when she was old which is why Manahan kidnapped her.

No, no, no. She was not found mentally ill, only not able to care for herself. And she was put in two asylums during her lifetime, the first one because she would not talk, the other one because the doctors were bribed. Got it?

It was the drawing in profile that doesn't look like her. They were mistaken.

I am talking the photo of Franziska Schanzkowska, the one that has never been authenticated, but which was brought by Martin Knopf as evidence.

Well you've been trying to get rid of her..

Not at all, I think she brings a little spice to the story..

need to convince YOU!

Why on earth is that so important?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

No, no, no. She was not found mentally ill, only not able to care for herself. And she was put in two asylums during her lifetime, the first one because she would not talk, the other one because the doctors were bribed. Got it?

Oh I hardly think anyone had to bribe anyone to put her away after this rampage:
From Massie's "Romanovs: The Final Chapter", page 182, paperback:

Early in 1929, she moved in with Annie B. Jennings, a wealthy Park Avenue spinster eager to have the daughter of the Tsar under her roof. For 18 months, the onetime Fraulein Unbekannat was the toast of NYC society, a fixture at dinner parties, luncheons, tea dances and operas. The the pattern of destructive behavior reasserted itself. She complained about her room and her food. She developed tantrums. She attacked servants with sticks and ran back and forth across the roof naked. She threw things out the window. She stood in an aisle of a dept. store and told the crowd how badly Miss Jennings was treating her. Finally, Judge Peter Schmuck of the NY Surpreme Court signed an order, and two men knocked down her locked door and carried her off to a mental hospital. She remained in Four Winds Sanatorium in Katonah, NY, for over a year.

I am talking the photo of Franziska Schanzkowska, the one that has never been authenticated, but which was brought by Martin Knopf as evidence.

Everyone says this is the pic circulated in the papers

http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/AA1935.jpg

Anyway we know that report was completely wrong, there was no proof, no one ever saw the person, and the real FS was AA.

Why on earth is that so important?

I take it back, I don't want to convince you, I never will, because you live in a different realm of reality. Even if you did stop believing in her I doubt you'd ever have the guts to admit you were wrong. It's important to tell the other side so you won't trick anyone into believing in AA. Someone has to be the voice of reason.
Why is it so important to YOU? Why are you always here?

 

[ChatNoir]

A little snippet from Harriet Rathlef Keilmann's book:

One day, when the invalid was getting better, the doctors said I could take her to the dentist. I had her missing teeth replaced, and also bougth her clothes which suited her and were more appropriate to her age. She then looked many years younger.
When I took her to the Mary Hospital, she constantly implored me to tell no one who she was. Professor Berg, however, showed the hospital doctors the police commissoner's letter (Grünberg), so that they knew who it was who passed under the name of Anastasia Chaikovski. This resulted in an incident which throws so significant a light on the attitude of the patient that I must certainly relate it. Four days after her admission, I took her to the operation theatre to have her dressings changed, I waited in an outside rom. Suddenly, the patient emerged in a state of great excitement, laid her head on my shoulder, and tearfully asked me: "What does the doctor know?" At first, I did not realize what had happened, tried to pacify her, and asked the doctor for an explanation. He showed me a form on which it was the practice to insert particulars of the patient's family. It was already partly filled up and, according to his story, she had answered his question regarding her family without raising any objection, probably in an almost automated manner. Her father's name was Nikolai Romanov, and she herself was born on 17 June, 1901 (German calendar). Her mother's name was Alexandra of Hesse, and her sisters and brother were called Olga, Tatiana, Marie and Alexei: they were all dead. Only when the doctor asked whether any of her grandparents were still alive did she hesitate, and refuse to reply. Thereupon, the doctor remarked: "Why don't you tell me? I have to write it down. Anyhow, there is the Empress Dagmar! Now you must give me your address so that I can fill up the form properly." The patient then looked at him in a despairing manner, and ran out of the room in tears.
For a long time, she was greatly disturbed to think that people at the hospital knew all about her. She was desperate about it, and wept bitterly. When I comforted her, and assured her that nothing could happen to her, she asked me what she really ought to have replied. She had, at the time, never suspected that the doctor, being a German, would know all these names so well.

 

[ChatNoir]

Oh I hardly think anyone had to bribe anyone to put her away after this rampage:
From Massie's "Romanovs: The Final Chapter", page 182, paperback:
Early in 1929, she moved in with Annie B. Jennings, a wealthy Park Avenue spinster eager to have the daughter of the Tsar under her roof. For 18 months, the onetime Fraulein Unbekannat was the toast of NYC society, a fixture at dinner parties, luncheons, tea dances and operas. The the pattern of destructive behavior reasserted itself. She complained about her room and her food. She developed tantrums. She attacked servants with sticks and ran back and forth across the roof naked. She threw things out the window. She stood in an aisle of a dept. store and told the crowd how badly Miss Jennings was treating her. Finally, Judge Peter Schmuck of the NY Surpreme Court signed an order, and two men knocked down her locked door and carried her off to a mental hospital. She remained in Four Winds Sanatorium in Katonah, NY, for over a year.

There is no doubt she had a nervous breakdown. From Peter Kurth: (Where Massie gets his info from)
Anastasia had not yet been examined by a psychiatrist, nor would she be until she was carted off to the sanatorium at Katonah. The doctors Wilton Lloyd-Smith had engaged to sign the commitment papers were ready, all the same, to attest to her "untidiness," her "extreme suspicion," and her "delusions of persecution." It cost the Jenningses over one thousand dollars. "Dr. K...called me up," Lloyd-Smith wrote Walter Jennings afterward, "and asked me if I considered $500 for himself, $500 for Dr. Z... and $250 for Dr. W.. as a excessive charge for their services...I told him that I considered this perfectly reasonable. In view of the importance to you and to Miss Jennings in having their names on the commitment papers, and in view of the notoriety of the case when it is discovered, the charges are extremely modest.
On July 24, 1930, Anastasia was adjudged insane - "dangerous to herself and others." That night, while Lloyd-Smith stood by, a nurse and two orderlies broke down the door of her room. They found her cowering in the bathroom, dragged her to her feet, and took her away.

A year after, at Ilten in Germany, the doctors had been taking notes. "The lack of any symptoms of insanity," wrote Dr. Hans Willige, "was proved so conclusively during the very first examination that we were already able to tell Frau Tschaikovsky on the second day that she was not insane and not in need of treatment in an institution. Dr. Willige told her that she was free to go.

Everyone says this is the pic circulated in the papers

That pic is a drawing of AA and has nothing to do with FS.

Anyway we know that report was completely wrong, there was no proof, no one ever saw the person, and the real FS was AA.

Yes, three nurses testified in Hamburg that FS had been under their care for 5 years.

I take it back, I don't want to convince you, I never will, because you live in a different realm of reality. Even if you did stop believing in her I doubt you'd ever have the guts to admit you were wrong. It's important to tell the other side so you won't trick anyone into believing in AA. Someone has to be the voice of reason.

I am trying to tell the other side.....

Why is it so important to YOU? Why are you always here?

I am just giving information and questioning yours.

 

[Elspeth]

As Dr. Gill said: The putative sample from AA.

Oh, please.

BTW, that would be samples. Plural. Samples from different sources. Samples with the same DNA pattern.

Oh, and here's what he has to say about the likelihood of the source:

"In conclusion, two different samples (hair and intestine) said to have come from Anna Anderson have been independently collected and analysed by three different laboratories. Because our results are in agreement, this strongly suggests that the samples came from the same individual (Anna Anderson herself); the contention that the samples came from another (unknown) individual seems highly unlikely."

So he's using the word "putative" because the samples came to him and his colleagues indirectly; however, his analysis and that of Mark Stoneking show that the samples match each other, which is a very strong result, scientifically speaking. So why are you using it to imply that he really isn't all that certain about who the samples are from?

 

[ChatNoir]

Oh, please.

BTW, that would be samples. Plural.

Still putative.

Oh, please.

BTW, that would be samples. Plural. Samples from different sources. Samples with the same DNA pattern.

Oh, and here's what he has to say about the likelihood of the source:

"In conclusion, two different samples (hair and intestine) said to have come from Anna Anderson have been independently collected and analysed by three different laboratories. Because our results are in agreement, this strongly suggests that the samples came from the same individual (Anna Anderson herself); the contention that the samples came from another (unknown) individual seems highly unlikely."

So he's using the word "putative" because the samples came to him and his colleagues indirectly; however, his analysis and that of Mark Stoneking show that the samples match each other, which is a very strong result, scientifically speaking. So why are you using it to imply that he really isn't all that certain about who the samples are from?

My question to you is: Why do you want me to believe something that a court of law would not accept as evidence?

 

[Menarue]

Chat you don´t have to believe anything, obviously you do believe so there is nothing to do about this but to believe that Anna Anderson poor deluded creature was the Grand Duchess Anastasia, or Tatiana (as she originally thought) is asking far too much of me.