Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

I again think you confuse hearsay with statements and testimonies from first hand witnesses.

It's still 'hearsay.' This person says this, that person said that. Most of it is unverifiable, inconsistent and and often contradictory. In any court case, there will be testimony from both sides, and half the people turn out to be wrong. You have also told us that during the trial, it wasn't necessary to swear your testimony, so that casts even more doubt on it than it would if they had to fear perjury and jail for lying.

As Menarue said, it's all hearsay except the DNA, and that's why it's the final answer that proves who was right and wrong in the list of other 'evidence.'


Proof that DNA overrules all other evidence in a court of law
The Innocence Project - Home


I have also provided many quotes and commentary from 'first hand witnesses' such as Olga A., Gilliard, Gibbes, Sophie B., Irene H., Felix Y., Doris W., etc, but you don't accept any of it.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

It's still 'hearsay.' This person says this, that person said that. Most of it is unverifiable, inconsistent and and often contradictory.

Please give some examples.

In any court case, there will be testimony from both sides, and half the people turn out to be wrong. You have also told us that during the trial, it wasn't necessary to swear your testimony, so that casts even more doubt on it than it would if they had to fear perjury and jail for lying.

Like the Wingender testimony, for example.

As Menarue said, it's all hearsay except the DNA, and that's why it's the final answer that proves who was right and wrong in the list of other 'evidence.'

Hearsay: unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge. (Webster's Dictionary.)

Proof that DNA overrules all other evidence in a court of law
The Innocence Project - Home

See chain of custody.

I have also provided many quotes and commentary from 'first hand witnesses' such as Olga A., Gilliard, Gibbes, Sophie B., Irene H., Felix Y., Doris W., etc, but you don't accept any of it.

And some of these have been proven wrong.

[Menarue]

This thread is very interesting but I don´t think either side is going to convince the other. Why don´t we just have a poll.
1. Was Franziska Anna Anderson?
2. Was Anna Anderson Grand Duchess Anastasia.
3. Was GD Anastasia´s the body missing?
4. Was it GD Maria´s body missing.

It won´t get us anywhere but neither are we making much progress here.
Please don´t think I want this to stop, it is very interesting but if we could have something new to add it would be marvellous. Wasn´t it said that more DNA results were coming out in July..... I am looking forward to this.

[ChatNoir]

1. Based upon all information I have read, I doubt this very, very much.
2. DNA says no. The Botkins, who knew her very well, say yes.
3. Yes on this, and therefore no on 4.

On my visit to St. Petersburg, the Russian guide told us that the bodies of Anastasia and Alexei had never been found. I pointed to the list of people interred in the church, and she just shrugged her shoulders and said: "We just decided to leave it alone."

[Menarue]

Well Chat, that seems to be the poll over and done with,
Question 1. Yes and no.
Question 2. Yes and no.
Question 3. Yes and no.

Let´s see if July helps us out.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

And some of these have been proven wrong.

Please explain to me how these people have been prove wrong? I don't see anything inaccurate about what they say.

I have also provided many quotes and commentary from 'first hand witnesses' such as Olga A., Gilliard, Gibbes, Sophie B., Irene H., Felix Y., Doris W., etc, but you don't accept any of it.

Yes, and those are great resources! They are the main people who both met, Anastasia and saw AA. These are actual 'first hand witness'. I really don't see why you don't want to accept them?

Please give some examples.

Harriet von Rathlef, is another example of hearsay. It's just like the information you gave me about AA language. It was a bunch of hearsay!

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

Please explain to me how these people have been prove wrong? I don't see anything inaccurate about what they say.Yes, and those are great resources! They are the main people who both met, Anastasia and saw AA. These are actual 'first hand witness'. I really don't see why you don't want to accept them?

As I have said before, all testimony has to be considered. When Gilliard and Grand Duchess Olga both said that Anastasia spoke no German, we know that it is not correct. Gilliard's own timetables show clearly that the children were taking German lessons even in Tobolsk. And Anastasia's school books show her making fewer mistakes in German than in Russian.
When AA mentioned the Malachite room, Gilliard stated that "no such room existed." I thing we all have seen pictures from that room by now.
Both Olga and Gilliard said that AA knew no Russian, but when we read the court transcripts from Hamburg, we see that Gilliard had to admit that AA spoke in Russian to his wife, Shura.
Olga said in her later years that she left Berlin with no hope in her heart of the unknown woman being Anastasia. However, at the time she left Berlin, she said that: "My heart believes that the little one is Anastasia."
I am at work and do not have my books with me, but I will be happy to point out other discrepencies in testimonies if you are interested.

[ChatNoir]

Harriet von Rathlef, is another example of hearsay. It's just like the information you gave me about AA language. It was a bunch of hearsay!

I fail to see how Harriet von Rathlef-Keilmann can be connected with hearsay. She is the one who tended to AA for a long time and listened to AA's tales first hand. Of course, she did not know the real Anastasia and could therefore not undertake an identification, she could only observe and tell what she saw and heard. And that was enough to fill a book.

[COUNTESS]

What is really intersting is that all this time and enegery has been spent trying to prove, what may be unproveable, about someone who has been dead for decades and was a child when "she died". She as a human being on earth was important, as we all are, but past that she neither added no detracted from the world at large.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

I fail to see how Harriet von Rathlef-Keilmann can be connected with hearsay. She is the one who tended to AA for a long time and listened to AA's tales first hand. Of course, she did not know the real Anastasia and could therefore not undertake an identification, she could only observe and tell what she saw and heard. And that was enough to fill a book.

And...she didn't actually meet the real Anastasia. I would think the people who actually talked to Anastasia would be good witnesses. People just support Anna Anderson, because they barely know much about the real Anastasia, and they would believe anything.The most terrible part is she supported Anna Anderson, and yet didn't even know much about the real Anastasia- herself. But, I still believe they're still hearsay. Olga Alexandrovna and Gilliard knew a lot too, they published books too, explaining that AA couldn't be the playful Anastasia. If there was a person claiming to be someone and another person actually believed their story, but never met the actual person? That wouldn't be a good witness, because they didn't know the actual person.

As I have said before, all testimony has to be considered. When Gilliard and Grand Duchess Olga both said that Anastasia spoke no German, we know that it is not correct. Gilliard's own timetables show clearly that the children were taking German lessons even in Tobolsk. And Anastasia's school books show her making fewer mistakes in German than in Russian.

Gilliard and Olga, are correct. Anastasia didn't know any German,she knew very little. Since Russia was against Germany, Russia hated everything German. The Romanovs didn't use German. NAOTMAA barely knew any German. There's no evidence of Anastasia knowing any German. They didn't have a German tutor, either. Anastasia only had French, Russian and English tutors.I haven't seen German letters, from Anastasia! She knew more Russian than German, of course because she pratice it often. I see her write many letters, in Russian. I haven't seen none in German.

I am at work and do not have my books with me, but I will be happy to point out other discrepencies in testimonies if you are interested.

Please do so. I would also like to see the names of the books as well, too! But, the testimonies have to be the people who met the real Anastasia and Anna Anderson. They can't be people who met only AA, and didn't know the real Anastasia.

What is really intersting is that all this time and enegery has been spent trying to prove, what may be unproveable, about someone who has been dead for decades and was a child when "she died". She as a human being on earth was important, as we all are, but past that she neither added no detracted from the world at large.

It's quite sad, people still don't realize the truth after so many years nearly 14 years after DNA. I think, they just want to believe in what they want. AA has already been proven not to be Anastasia. For over 80 years people noticed that AA couldn't be Anastasia. Even, before the DNA tests were made.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

And...she didn't actually meet the real Anastasia.

A point I have already made clear.

I would think the people who actually talked to Anastasia would be good witnesses.

Yes, I think so too. That's why we have statements and testimonies from Tatiana Botkin, Gleb Botkin, Lili Dehn, Xenia Leeds, Maria Rasputin, Grand Duke Andrew, Alexis Volkov, Zinaida Tolstoy et al. All in favor of AA being AN.

People just support Anna Anderson, because they barely know much about the real Anastasia, and they would believe anything.

And who are these "people"?

The most terrible part is she supported Anna Anderson, and yet didn't even know much about the real Anastasia- herself.

She supported a sick lady and wrote down everything she said or did.

But, I still believe they're still hearsay.

Again, look at the definition of "hearsay".

Olga Alexandrovna and Gilliard knew a lot too, they published books too, explaining that AA couldn't be the playful Anastasia.

And as I have pointed out, there are discrepensies in their testimonies.

If there was a person claiming to be someone and another person actually believed their story, but never met the actual person? That wouldn't be a good witness, because they didn't know the actual person.

As I have said earlier, Harriet von Rathlef-Keilmann did not identify AA as AN, she never even mentions her name, just writes about her as "the patient".

Gilliard and Olga, are correct. Anastasia didn't know any German,she knew very little. Since Russia was against Germany, Russia hated everything German. The Romanovs didn't use German. NAOTMAA barely knew any German. There's no evidence of Anastasia knowing any German. They didn't have a German tutor, either.

And timetables and schoolbooks show otherwise. Their German tutor was Mr. Kleinenberg and stayed with them up to the beginning of the revolution.

Anastasia only had French, Russian and English tutors.I haven't seen German letters, from Anastasia! She knew more Russian than German, of course because she pratice it often. I see her write many letters, in Russian. I haven't seen none in German.

Of course she knew more Russian than German. AA's German was rather bad.

Please do so. I would also like to see the names of the books as well, too! But, the testimonies have to be the people who met the real Anastasia and Anna Anderson. They can't be people who met only AA, and didn't know the real Anastasia.

This limits the scope a bit, since the people who had met them both, usually came out in favor of AA being AN. The only opponents were Grand Duchess Olga and Gilliard, who changed their story and their attitude against her in January of 1927. And of course Felix Yussoupov, who was later willing to change his position for a bit of the alleged fortune. Gilliard was especially hostile to AA, and, for example, when the Schanzkowskis refused to defame the missing Franziska by saying that she had had a child or a miscarriage, he promptly declared that AA had invented the story of having given girth to a son, and that the doctors must always have known it, for why otherwise had she been registered in the Dalldorf asylum as Miss instead of Mrs. When AA told Zahle about the little swastika mascot on the hood of the Tsarina's car, a detail not even Volkov could remember, Gilliard published a photo of the car with a big swastika drawn in on the door, asking how anybody could miss a thing like that. He also said that the photos she was shown at the Mommsen clinic awoke no memories in her mind, and you only have to read Bella Cohen's interview with Shura and Grand Duchess Olga to see that he is not telling the truth.


[

[Anna was Franziska]

I've been gone most of the day, I had a lovely ride in the mountains! I'll answer more later bur for now the poll:

1. YES! She looks just like her and the DNA matches.
2. NO WAY. She looks nothing like her and the DNA didn't match.
3. IMO, yes, but it's been found. I have to agree with Chat on this one point. The skeleton in the 1991 grave labeled as AN is 5'7" which is Maria's height, AN was 5'2". American and British scientists said the missing body was AN, based on the immature vertebrae being missing from the grave. At about 18 rings fuse with your vertebrae, all the rings in the grave were mature/fused meaning the people were all over 18. Maria was 19, AN barely 17 when they were shot. The Russians based their ID as Maria on facial reconstruction only, but if you look at the skull they used, there is nothing left in the center. The only usable part is the browbone, and being sisters AN and Maria were similar here.

One more good piece of evidence is this :

Sukhorukov in Last Act of A Tragedy p. 144:

We decided to burn two corpses on the fire and did so. For our sacrificial altar we got the last heir. The second body was the youngest daughter Anastasia. After the corpses were burned, we scattered the ashes, dug a pit in the centre, shoveled in all the unburnt remainders, made a fire again on the same spot and finished the work.

There are several accounts of the bodies being burned, this is the only one that mentions a GD by name (another one mentions Alexei) NO accounts ever mention Maria being burned or missing.


So I believe Dr. Maples was right and Maria was in the grave and AN was missing, though she's not anymore because her remains have now been found.
4.no see above

[Menarue]

We all seem to agree to disagree. I only hope that more information comes out in July 2008.
This is one mystery I would like to be solved for the reasons put forward by Countess.
At least now we shouldn´t have any claimants appearing, there is still the chance that someone obscure will appear saying their mother was ........
etc etc. Perhaps another author will write a book, perhaps there is still money to be made.
For me is is one of the saddest stories in history, four beautiful girls and their sick brother, maids and pets killed in the most brutal way.
I must mention their parents too, who, perhaps because of their foolishness unwittingly brought this terrible fate on their family.
The true victims were the ones who did nothing to deserve even the slightest reprehension let alone their savage murder.

[ferrymansdaughter]

The facts show that you are wrong. My emphasis in bold below

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

Gilliard and Olga, are correct. Anastasia didn't know any German,she knew very little.

She either knew NO German or she knew SOME. You are contradicting yourself.

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

Since Russia was against Germany, Russia hated everything German.

The fact that there was a war against Germany has no bearing on Anastasia's knowledge of the language.

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

The Romanovs didn't use German. NAOTMAA barely knew any German. There's no evidence of Anastasia knowing any German. They didn't have a German tutor, either. Anastasia only had French, Russian and English tutors..

Anastasia's own school books are indeed evidence of the fact that she knew German. She had regular lessons. Chat has already given you the name of her tutor and she still had lessons (which were actually scheduled by Gilliard) whilst they were in Tobolsk. She therefore obviously had a tutor in the German language.

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

I haven't seen German letters, from Anastasia! She knew more Russian than German, of course because she pratice it often. I see her write many letters, in Russian. I haven't seen none in German.

No-one is claiming that her German was better than her Russian or that she wrote letters in German. (She may have but why would you expect to have seen everything she wrote)

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by Menarue

This thread is very interesting but I don´t think either side is going to convince the other. Why don´t we just have a poll.
1. Was Franziska Anna Anderson?
2. Was Anna Anderson Grand Duchess Anastasia.
3. Was GD Anastasia´s the body missing?
4. Was it GD Maria´s body missing.

.

Re your poll:

1. No
2. Quite possibly but I am not sure
3. Of course
4. No

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter

She either knew NO German or she knew SOME. You are contradicting yourself.

No, a person can know very little German and have it still not qualify as knowledge enough to make it useful. I know people who took it in high school and college and don't know enough to function minimally. The facts, yes, the facts are, that AN was raised bilingual in Russian and English, therefore those should have been two languages AA, if she were AN, knew well, yet, she didn't. She learned French and had a live in French tutor, so she came to know it well. The official language of the court was French, so it was used often. The one language that as not used often was German. This is proven by accounts and books of those who knew them. So there's really no point in arguing that because they technically took lessons they 'might' have known it well because the proof is there that they didn't. Some may say, but they had German relatives. Yes, but it's proven that all correspondence with them in person and via letter was in English, this included Ella, Ernie and even the Kaiser! So, not being exposed to German, they didn't know it like the other languages. This means it would not have been the language of choice, or best language, of any of the children should they turn up missing later.

Those who met her in the 20's and denied her such as Yussoupov and Olga mentioned he choice of German and her inability to speak Russian, English or French as a big reason for their denial. Why would a person raised speaking three other languages suddenly, in a year and a half time, forget them and suddenly use the one she was least familiar with? And what about Romanian, she allegedly lived there, yet didn't know it? Guess they forgot to cover that base in her invented escape story! When it comes donw to it, the only evidence of her speaking the other languages came from supporters. She was never able to prove it in public.

The most glaring proof should be AA's horrible English, even years later, even after living in the US for years! Here are some other accounts:

It was not the English of someone who had spoken English since childhood as Anastasia did." said the English writer, Michael Thornton, when he met her in 1960. "The accent was Germanic, the sentence structure German, the grammar hopeless."

Dave Howey, who met Anderson, by then Mrs. Manahan, when he was a cadet at a Virginia military academy in 1977, wrote of their meeting that "Her husband talked for her since she spoke very little English. Her only functional language was German, her Russian having been wiped out, we were told, as a result of the trauma from seeing her family gunned down in the cellar of a house in Ekaterinburg, Russia."

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

The most glaring proof should be AA's horrible English, even years later, even after living in the US for years! Here are some other accounts:

It was not the English of someone who had spoken English since childhood as Anastasia did." said the English writer, Michael Thornton, when he met her in 1960. "The accent was Germanic, the sentence structure German, the grammar hopeless."

Dave Howey, who met Anderson, by then Mrs. Manahan, when he was a cadet at a Virginia military academy in 1977, wrote of their meeting that "Her husband talked for her since she spoke very little English. Her only functional language was German, her Russian having been wiped out, we were told, as a result of the trauma from seeing her family gunned down in the cellar of a house in Ekaterinburg, Russia."

If the GD Anastasia survived she would have spoken perfect English. I think these testimonies are very damning.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Those who met her in the 20's and denied her such as Yussoupov and Olga mentioned he choice of German and her inability to speak Russian, English or French as a big reason for their denial. Why would a person raised speaking three other languages suddenly, in a year and a half time, forget them and suddenly use the one she was least familiar with? And what about Romanian, she allegedly lived there, yet didn't know it? Guess they forgot to cover that base in her invented escape story! When it comes down to it, the only evidence of her speaking the other languages came from supporters. She was never able to prove it in public.

AA never been able to prove to anyone that she speaks Russian. Her supporters say many times AA speaks Russian and French but, they never been able to prove it. Pure speculation! Please stop defending her, the truth is already there!

Of course she knew more Russian than German. AA's German was rather bad.

How? Why hasn't she been proven she knew Russian in the court, and why hasn't she ever spoke in Russian to Olga and French to Gilliard? She wanted to speak in German, because it's the language she knew.

The fact that there was a war against Germany has no bearing on Anastasia's knowledge of the language.

German was not used often because it was not needed. But, Russian was because it was the country they lived in. English was needed because Alix mainly spoke it fluently. French wa salso needed because it was a language in the Russian court. The German relatives already knew English, Kaiser Welhelm wrote letters to them in English.

If the GD Anastasia survived she would have spoken perfect English. I think these testimonies are very damning.

Right, English not German. If Anastasia would have lived her English and Russian would have been fluent.

No-one is claiming that her German was better than her Russian or that she wrote letters in German. (She may have but why would you expect to have seen everything she wrote)

AA did know German.She didn't speak in Russian and French because she didn't know any. AA's English was very horrible, even while she was living in America. It hasn't been proven that she knew those languages. So, don't make up stuff! But, the real Anastasia she knew only French, Russian and English.

Anastasia's own school books are indeed evidence of the fact that she knew German. She had regular lessons. Chat has already given you the name of her tutor and she still had lessons (which were actually scheduled by Gilliard) whilst they were in Tobolsk. She therefore obviously had a tutor in the German language.

A person can know very little German and have it still not qualify as knowledge enough to make it useful.

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

No, a person can know very little German and have it still not qualify as knowledge enough to make it useful. I know people who took it in high school and college and don't know enough to function minimally.

For Heaven's sake - no matter how small someone's knowlege of a language is, they can either speak SOME or NONE. Anastasia had actually studied it several times a week for some time before they were taken to Ekaterinburg, therefore she DID know some German. This is an indisputable FACT.

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Those who met her in the 20's and denied her such as Yussoupov and Olga mentioned he choice of German and her inability to speak Russian, English or French as a big reason for their denial. Why would a person raised speaking three other languages suddenly, in a year and a half time, forget them and suddenly use the one she was least familiar with? And what about Romanian, she allegedly lived there, yet didn't know it? Guess they forgot to cover that base in her invented escape story! When it comes donw to it, the only evidence of her speaking the other languages came from supporters. She was never able to prove it in public.

If you were as knowledgeable as you claim to be, you would know that AA wasactually unable to express herself fluently in almost ANY language. Whoever she was, she definitely had head injuries and it is a well known fact that head injuries can affect the language centres of the brain. When she lived in Germany, she spoke that language and her English was bad. When she got off the Berengaria in New York, she could speak fluent English - and please don't tell me that she had a crash course on the voyage.
Why would she speak any Romanian? Tthe Tchaikowsky family were not Rumanian, they were supposed to be Polish I believe. Also AA only went out twice during her whole time in Bucharest - one for the "wedding" and once for the funeral.

The evidence of her speaking Russian does not just come from supporters, but also from independent people such as doctors etc before her claim to identify began. Everyone at Dalldorf thought she was Russian BEFORE she was "discovered".

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

It was not the English of someone who had spoken English since childhood as Anastasia did." said the English writer, Michael Thornton, when he met her in 1960. "The accent was Germanic, the sentence structure German, the grammar hopeless."
Dave Howey, who met Anderson, by then Mrs. Manahan, when he was a cadet at a Virginia military academy in 1977, wrote of their meeting that "Her husband talked for her since she spoke very little English. Her only functional language was German, her Russian having been wiped out, we were told, as a result of the trauma from seeing her family gunned down in the cellar of a house in Ekaterinburg, Russia."

As I have pointed out elsewhere - and unfortunately don't have the sources to hand - language experts said that AA spoke English with EITHER a Russian or a German accent from a specific German province (not the Posen area where FS came from). They also detected a slight Yorkshire accent whichis intriguing since Gibbes came from Yorkshire. I doubt very much if FS ever met anyone from Yorkshire.

[AGRBear]

If I'm remembering correctly, one of the judges, who spoke Russian, visited AA, because she refused to go to court, and interviewed her. When he left her he believed she did speak Russian.

Perhaps Chat can recall this better than I and has a source.

AGRBear