Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

And FS lived as a family member with the Wingenders, not alone in some little cottage way out in the country. Mrs. Wingender, according to her testimony, kept close tabs on FS, her comings and goings.

Don't you think the man in my news story also had other people in his life, friends, neighbhors, coworkers, who would also have noticed but didn't think anything was amiss? People do just go off sometimes, it's doesn't always mean they're missing or dead. Also remember the story or Michael Jordan's father who was murdered, thrown in a bog and found rotten before anyone considered him missing. This was the father of one of the most famous athletes in the world. It still happens, and it was even more likely to happen in the old days than now.

Besides, nowhere did the Wingenders ever say she never vanished until March 9, or was seen in the meantime. She just wasn't reported for that long. But of course since you consider them 'liars' because they said AA was FS, you'd never believe them anyway.

Originally Posted by Menarue

Out of Bavaria then. Let us say as far a way as possible from Germany to relieve them of an embarassment.

I don't blame them. What a shame for the German taxpayers who had to foot a large part of the bill for her 3 decades long fraudulent claim.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Don't you think the man in my news story also had other people in his life, friends, neighbhors, coworkers, who would also have noticed but didn't think anything was amiss? People do just go off sometimes, it's doesn't always mean they're missing or dead. Also remember the story or Michael Jordan's father who was murdered, thrown in a bog and found rotten before anyone considered him missing. This was the father of one of the most famous athletes in the world. It still happens, and it was even more likely to happen in the old days than now.

Besides, nowhere did the Wingenders ever say she never vanished until March 9, or was seen in the meantime. She just wasn't reported for that long. But of course since you consider them 'liars' because they said AA was FS, you'd never believe them anyway.

If you read Doris Wingender's contract with the Nachtausgabe, you will see that she was asked to produce a copy of the Abmeldung from March 9th, the date she apparently herself gave for the disappearance.

I don't blame them. What a shame for the German taxpayers who had to foot a large part of the bill for her 3 decades long fraudulent claim.

As you will see from my former post, the Bavarian Police refused to give in to demands from Darmstadt that AA was arrested for fraud or expelled. Clearly they did not consider her to be FS.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

If you read Doris Wingender's contract with the Nachtausgabe, you will see that she was asked to produce a copy of the Abmeldung from March 9th, the date she apparently herself gave for the disappearance.




As you will see from my former post, the Bavarian Police refused to give in to demands from Darmstadt that AA was arrested for fraud or expelled. Clearly they did not consider her to be FS.

Pure speculation. You are putting words in their mouths.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Pure speculation. You are putting words in their mouths.

So why did they not arrest her for fraud or expel her?

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

So why did they not arrest her for fraud or expel her?

Because Gleb took her to America.

[Elspeth]

Apparently we have some members who believe that the forum rules don't apply to them.

I've just deleted a post which was nothing more than a parade of personal attacks on other members. Further posts along those lines, by people on either side of this argument, will continue to be deleted. If members persist in this inconsiderate and wholly unnecessary nonsense, they'll find themselves suspended or banned.

I don't care how strongly people feel that they're right and other people are wrong. If you can't argue the issues, then feel free to stay out of the thread.

Elspeth

Royal Forums administrator

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Because Gleb took her to America.

Right! They were looking for the Americans to believe AA's story.That's why Gleb took her over to America. Since a lot of people in Russia deny her claim. Especially, many of the Romanov family members.

[Anna was Franziska]

Right, it was a good move to get her away from Europe where so many people had denied her. She was able to fool a lot of American socialites in NYC. They were interested in royalty, infatuated with glamour like they were with movie stars of the time, but had no idea what the real AN would look or be like, and wouldn't have known her from anyone else. It was easy for her claim to get publicity and exposure as these people 'accepted' her because they had no reason to deny her. People wanted to believe the story of her escape. They were told she was a Grand Duchess and they went along with it. There were written stories, plays, even Anastasia cigarettes. The more her legend spread, the harder it would be to diffuse it.

Franziska, who had wanted to become an actress, must have really enjoyed the spotlight and attention. (and her dream came true, because she was acting!)

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Because Gleb took her to America.

Actually, Gleb Botkin never took her to America. He tried to raise money to get her over since he had none of his own, and was towards the end of the summer approached by Mrs. Margharita Derfelden who told him that Xenia Leeds was eager to see him. The latter decided to do something for AA, and ended up inviting her to stay at the Leeds estate at Oyster Bay.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Right, it was a good move to get her away from Europe where so many people had denied her.

Besides, the Duke of Leuchtenberg did not have the means to house her anymore.

She was able to fool a lot of American socialites in NYC. They were interested in royalty, infatuated with glamour like they were with movie stars of the time, but had no idea what the real AN would look or be like, and wouldn't have known her from anyone else. It was easy for her claim to get publicity and exposure as these people 'accepted' her because they had no reason to deny her. People wanted to believe the story of her escape. They were told she was a Grand Duchess and they went along with it. There were written stories, plays, even Anastasia cigarettes. The more her legend spread, the harder it would be to diffuse it.

Actually, she did nothing to fool anybody, she was very protective of her identity. All the exposure was done by those who did (or did not) believe in her.

Franziska, who had wanted to become an actress, must have really enjoyed the spotlight and attention. (and her dream came true, because she was acting!)

And where is it stated that Franziska wanted to become an actress?

[ChatNoir]

An interesting snippet from Gleb Botkin's book:

The situation in Europe was again getting worse. According to all reports, the Grand Duke of Hessen-Darmstadt was girding himself for another attack on Grand Duchess Anastasia. Indeed, a formal complaint was soon made against Mrs. von Rathlef, to the effect that she had bribed police officials, while investigating the past of the now so famous Francisca. About the same time Dr. Lucke, the editor who had published the story about Francisca, brought a libel suit against the newspaper Tägliche Rundshcau, which had accused him editorially of having accepted a bribe from the Grand Duke of Hessen Darmstadt.

I went to the foreign editor of the New York Herald-Tribune and, having explained the situation, asked him whether he would agree to publish an article containing the story of Hessen-Darmstadt's war-time trip to Russia, and his consequent fear of Anastasia as the only living witness of that trip. Rather to my astonishment the editor agreed and the article was duly published.
Its effect fulfilled my best expectations. While accepted placidly enough in this country, it raised another storm in Europe, and the Grand Duke of Hessen-Darmstadt hastened to withdraw from the battlefield. About the same time Mrs. von Rathlef was acquitted in court of all the accusations made against her. Finally, when Dr. Lucke's libel suit came up for trial, the judge warned him that he would have to summon the Grand Duke of Hessen-Darmstadt as one of the witnesses, and that the revelations likely to be made at the trial would probably create such a scandal as to affect the results of the forthcoming general elections. Dr. Lucke then immediately dropped his suit.

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Besides, the Duke of Leuchtenberg did not have the means to house her any more.



And where is it stated that Franziska wanted to become an actress?

This is perhaps the answer to why the court cases were dropped.
Too expensive to continue.

Perhaps Franzisca didn´t actually say she wanted to be an actress she just went ahead and acted.

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

His name was Dave and his last initial was K. That's more of a real name than "Ferrymansdaughter" or "Anna was Franziska." If he chose not to reveal his entire identity and his place of employment on a message board and set himself up for possible harassment, who can blame him? This doesn't devalue what he said or figured out. I haven't seen anyone disprove it.

If you all would be interested and the mods don't think it would clog up the forum, I'd like to post some legal precedence cases that proves the testing done on AA HAS held up in court. (technically, anything can be called 'putative' and anyone could allege a switch, but proving it is something else)

My point is that (while no-one may have disproven what he said) if he doesn't have the necessary scientific background then it is only his opinion, which counts for no more than anyone else's - including mine or yours - and he should not be quoted as "an expert". If you want to quote Gill, Stoneking or someone of that ilk, that is a different matter.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter

My point is that (while no-one may have disproven what he said) if he doesn't have the necessary scientific background then it is only his opinion, which counts for no more than anyone else's - including mine or yours - and he should not be quoted as "an expert".

DaveK came to the AP and offered his scientific research to us free of charge. The mods stickied his thread to the top of the page for future reference (perhaps hoping if people read it first, they still wouldn't ask questions about AA? maybe he revealed his credentials to them in private) He was for awhile a frequent poster. I do think he was a scientist who works in the field, but because he didn't want to reveal his personal info online for privacy reasons (and who would want their real name and place of employment out for all to see, especially considering the backlash and personal harassment so many who oppose AA have gotten?) This doesn't mean he's not qualified, or that his examples should be disregarded.

If you want to quote Gill, Stoneking or someone of that ilk, that is a different matter.

Well, I doubt it would do much good. I have written to Dr. Terry Melton and recieved personal answers, which I have posted here and elsewhere and that apparently didn't help.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

And where is it stated that Franziska wanted to become an actress?

It's been mentioned several places but this is the only one I can put a page number to. On page 249 of Massie's "Romanovs: The Final Chapter", quoting Waltraud Schanzkowska, niece of FS:

'She didn't want to be be buried in a little one-horse town. She wanted to come out into the world, to become an actress -- something special.'

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

It's been mentioned several places but this is the only one I can put a page number to. On page 249 of Massie's "Romanovs: The Final Chapter", quouting Waltraud Schanzkowska, niece of FS:

'She didn't want to be be buried in a little one-horse town. She wanted to come out into the world, to become an actress -- something special.'

Sorry but that is heresay. Waltraud never even met FS and it doesn't really gell with the picture given by others who knew her - for example she was remembered as being totally ordinary by co workers which would not suggest she was the kind who wanted to "something special" as they usually try to be the centre of attention all the time, wherever they are. i think we have all met people like that!

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Actually, she did nothing to fool anybody, she was very protective of her identity. All the exposure was done by those who did (or did not) believe in her.

Sure, like that was really her true identity! The Americans would believe in anything. They had no clue who the real Anastasia was.

And where is it stated that Franziska wanted to become an actress?

Yes, it's in Robert K. Massie's book:
'My Auntie Franziska was the cleverest of the children,' " said Waltraud Schanzkowska, a resident of Hamburg. " 'She didn't want to be be buried in a little one-horse town. She wanted to come out into the world, to become an actress -- something special.'

[Menarue]

Actually most of what we know about GD Anastasia, Franzisca and Anna A is hearsay except for the DNA conclusions.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Menarue

Actually most of what we know about GD Anastasia, Franzisca and Anna A is hearsay except for the DNA conclusions.

I again think you confuse hearsay with statements and testimonies from first hand witnesses.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Menarue

This is perhaps the answer to why the court cases were dropped.
Too expensive to continue.

George of Leuchtenberg was not involved in any court case.