Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Shura saying she had it in the Kurth book is the first I ever heard of AN having it. It's not mentioned in any of the books or diaries or eyewitness accounts by those who knew the family. There are plenty of reports of Anastasia being a tomboy, climbing trees and jumping, and pictures of her playing tennis. I really don't think her feet were so bad or bothered her all that much.

Harriet Rathlef Keilmann told in her book that Shura confirmed the likeness of the feet: "With the Grand Duchess it was the same, the right foot was worse than the left." If you look at PeterKurth.com, you will see a photo of AA where the affliction is clearly showing. Also see this photo here from tennis, why do you think AN is wearing sandals instead of tennis shoes? (Of course, this does not prove anything.)

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

As I said, I will not speculate. And I don't want AA to be anybody, I just find the mystery fascinating.

But there is no mystery, you're just making one up. The sample was labeled as hers, and there is no reason to believe it wasn't.

What does the lenght of the trial have to do with the late report of FS missing?

Because surely if she really had been 'in two places at once' it would have been proven in all that time, and even in the 60's the judges still said she was 'eminently likely' to be FS. There's really no proof of it because AA and FS were the same person. She was in the asylum on Feb. 20 but she was not officially reported missing until March 9. This really doesn't change a thing.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

But there is no mystery, you're just making one up. The sample was labeled as hers, and there is no reason to believe it wasn't.

If there is no mystery, what are you doing here? You would be at peace with the solution and not waste time on crazy people like me.

Because surely if she really had been 'in two places at once' it would have been proven in all that time, and even in the 60's the judges still said she was 'eminently likely' to be FS. There's really no proof of it because AA and FS were the same person. She was in the asylum on Feb. 20 but she was not officially reported missing until March 9. This really doesn't change a thing.

She was not in the asylum on Feb. 20, but at the Elisabeth Hospital in Lützowstrasse. And she was rescued 3 days before that. Maybe you remember the final trial, where la Wingender ran away from the court room and the whole FS story was more or less laid to rest. As the last judge said: I could just as well have ruled in her favor......

[ChatNoir]

Again, did anybody say likeness?

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

1 a: existing at or dating from birth <congenital deafness> b: constituting an essential characteristic : inherent <congenital fear of snakes> c: acquired during development in the uterus and not through heredity <congenital syphilis>2: being such by nature <a congenital liar>

Yes, it has a number of meanings, and "dating from birth" isn't the only one. However, if it's used in this particular case to refer to bunions that have been present since early childhood, then that's fine.

One thing I'm not seeing in any of the descriptions of hallux valgus is a way to tell when an existing case first became symptomatic. According to the Mayo Clinic website, "bunions can develop at any time during childhood or adulthood and are permanent unless surgically corrected." Obviously this means that they're more common in adults than in children, but I haven't managed to find anything about how to tell how long a person with bunions has had them.

How were Anna Anderson's doctors able to determine that her bunions had been present all her life?

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Again, did anybody say likeness?

This picture is especially bad! That's the one where she's biting her lips hard and hiding part of her face with the boa to conceal how much she DOESN'T look like AN! Talk about glamour shots makeover from that mugshot!(below left)

http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/lipbyte.jpg



Hide those lips, Franziska! You can see the drastic difference in the way she appears in pictures after her claim picked up fame and she was brought to the US by Gleb. She certainly seems coached and posed.(above right)

A closeup of your 'boa' pic showing how hard she's biting those lips, compared with what her lips really looked like:








Did somebody say likeness?
FS and AA

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

Yes, it has a number of meanings, and "dating from birth" isn't the only one. However, if it's used in this particular case to refer to bunions that have been present since early childhood, then that's fine.

One thing I'm not seeing in any of the descriptions of hallux valgus is a way to tell when an existing case first became symptomatic. According to the Mayo Clinic website, "bunions can develop at any time during childhood or adulthood and are permanent unless surgically corrected." Obviously this means that they're more common in adults than in children, but I haven't managed to find anything about how to tell how long a person with bunions has had them.

How were Anna Anderson's doctors able to determine that her bunions had been present all her life?

All I have here, is professor Rudnev's statement that because of the severety of the bunions, they had to have been present from birth. I'll look it up later, right now it is home to a cold martini and a warm dinner.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

If there is no mystery, what are you doing here? You would be at peace with the solution and not waste time on crazy people like me.

No I'm trying to stop you from misleading people. Earlier in this thread, you had a buyer for your 'two places at once' theory which IS NOT true. It's easy to drop little tidbits that aren't proven and get a bite now and then but it's not right so I have to tell the other side. My crusade is to finally put this old story to rest for truth in history. If you want fairy tales try the Brothers Grimm.

She was not in the asylum on Feb. 20, but at the Elisabeth Hospital in Lützowstrasse. And she was rescued 3 days before that.

She was still 'put away.'

Maybe you remember the final trial, where la Wingender ran away from the court room and the whole FS story was more or less laid to rest.

Obviously, the "FS story" was NOT laid to rest because it came up again in every trial, and in the 1961 verdict the judge said her id as FS was likely. The FS story was still not 'put to rest' in 1994 when scientists bothered to obtain a sample of blood from a member of FS's family and it matched. She's been suspected to be FS since the 20's, the DNA just proved it. Even today, stories from major news services about the Romanovs will say 'a woman named AA claimed to be AN but DNA tests proved her to be FS, a Polish factory worker.' Seems AA= FS is fairly common knowledge except in your realm.

[GlitteringTiaras]

Likeness? They both have freaky eyes.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

All I have here, is professor Rudnev's statement that because of the severety of the bunions, they had to have been present from birth. I'll look it up later, right now it is home to a cold martini and a warm dinner.

I find his diagnosis suspect due to the fact he was a big supporter of her claim.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by GlitteringTiaras

Likeness? They both have freaky eyes.

Check out the shape of the nose, lips, chin and jaw. Even the hair part and the eyebrow arch are the same in AA and FS.



L-R FS AA AN: AA/FS have the same face, compare to Anastasia's longer rounded chin and much different lips

[Elspeth]

I have to admit I'm not finding anything anywhere saying that severe hallux valgus has to have been present from birth; that doesn't mean it isn't true, but it'd be nice to get independent confirmation from some source that wasn't involved with the Anderson case.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

No I'm trying to stop you from misleading people. Earlier in this thread, you had a buyer for your 'two places at once' theory which IS NOT true. It's easy to drop little tidbits that aren't proven and get a bite now and then but it's not right so I have to tell the other side. My crusade is to finally put this old story to rest for truth in history. If you want fairy tales try the Brothers Grimm.

And how do you know that it IS NOT true? Your "telling the other side" so far has only been speculations. I stick to the information from the people who were there.

She was still 'put away.'

The police was at the end of their rope and had no idea what to do with her. That's why she ended up at Dalldorf, not because she was mentally impaired.

Obviously, the "FS story" was NOT laid to rest because it came up again in every trial, and in the 1961 verdict the judge said her id as FS was likely.

From "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson: While they (the judges) were arguing, Doris Wingender slipped from the room. She never came back. And that, for all intents and purposes, was the end of the legend of Franziska Shanzkowska.

The FS story was still not 'put to rest' in 1994 when scientists bothered to obtain a sample of blood from a member of FS's family and it matched

Sorry, but Karl Maucher has never been proven a member of the Shanzkowsky family.

She's been suspected to be FS since the 20's, the DNA just proved it. Even today, stories from major news services about the Romanovs will say 'a woman named AA claimed to be AN but DNA tests proved her to be FS, a Polish factory worker.' Seems AA= FS is fairly common knowledge except in your realm.

Elspeth will correct you here.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

We agree on something! The internet is too big and too full of weirdos or potential dangers. It's bad enough being harassed on the computer, but if it could cross over into your real life, that's unacceptable. No one should have to reveal their own personal info if they don't want to, and no one should do it for them. It's wrong.

I think there's a lot we can agree upon. I think the wording and conversation gets muddled.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

I find his diagnosis suspect due to the fact he was a big supporter of her claim.

Rudnev was a doctor called in to save her life.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

I have to admit I'm not finding anything anywhere saying that severe hallux valgus has to have been present from birth; that doesn't mean it isn't true, but it'd be nice to get independent confirmation from some source that wasn't involved with the Anderson case.

Rudnev was not involved in the Anderson case, he was just called in to try saving her life from tuberculosis.
From Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson:
Following a detailed report of her physical condition Rudnev remarked, "On the right foot I noted a severe deformity, apparently congenital in nature, in that the the big toe bends right in over the middle, forming a bunion."
Although the condition is not unusual,, in this case the malady was so pronounced that it could only have been present from birth.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

This picture is especially bad! That's the one where she's biting her lips hard and hiding part of her face with the boa to conceal how much she DOESN'T look like AN! Talk about glamour shots makeover from that mugshot!(below left)

Hide those lips, Franziska! You can see the drastic difference in the way she appears in pictures after her claim picked up fame and she was brought to the US by Gleb. She certainly seems coached and posed.(above right)

A closeup of your 'boa' pic showing how hard she's biting those lips, compared with what her lips really looked like:

Did somebody say likeness?
FS and AA

It always gives me a good laugh when you try to find excuses for the obvious likeness between AA and AN.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

And how do you know that it IS NOT true? Your "telling the other side" so far has only been speculations. I stick to the information from the people who were there.

There were other people there who told another story. You only stick to what you want to tell. In any trial, there are two sides being told, one will turn out to be wrong and one right. Thanks to the DNA we now know what is right.

The police was at the end of their rope and had no idea what to do with her. That's why she ended up at Dalldorf, not because she was mentally impaired.

Considering the police were busy, underfunded and on the verge of joining a coup against the Weimar republic, no wonder they didn't have much time for this case. They took her for mentally ill rightfully so because she had attempted suicide and because she refused to talk.

From "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson: While they (the judges) were arguing, Doris Wingender slipped from the room. She never came back. And that, for all intents and purposes, was the end of the legend of Franziska Shanzkowska.

Yet history proves otherwise, because she was a factor all through the trials, in the DNA testing and even today.

Sorry, but Karl Maucher has never been proven a member of the Shanzkowsky family.

Sorry but why in the world would the scientists choose him to give a sample if he weren't?

Elspeth will correct you here.

On what?

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

There were other people there who told another story. You only stick to what you want to tell. In any trial, there are two sides being told, one will turn out to be wrong and one right. Thanks to the DNA we now know what is right.

Then please do tell.

Considering the police were busy, underfunded and on the verge of joining a coup against the Weimar republic, no wonder they didn't have much time for this case. They took her for mentally ill rightfully so because she had attempted suicide and because she refused to talk.

The Berlin Police has records on the "Fraülein Unbekannt" story. Please read.
They did not take her for mentally ill, they just did not know what to do with her. The police are not doctors.

Yet history proves otherwise, because she was a factor all through the trials, in the DNA testing and even today.

Yes, she was.

Sorry but why in the world would the scientists choose him to give a sample if he weren't?

He was not chosen by any scientists, but by film maker Remy who had no idea that his grandmother's birth certificate had never been found.

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

On what?

On the statement "She's been suspected to be FS since the 20's, the DNA just proved it," I assume. The DNA didn't prove it; it strongly supported it, but it wasn't a DNA fingerprint. I think this was the case where they said that there was a 1 in 300 chance that the match didn't indicate relatedness; that's still a finite chance even if a fairly slim one.