Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by TheTruth

To which I answer :

How can you deny science in such a way ? Of course there's a margin of error but come on, she disappeared the same year FS did. And DNA is still very reliable.

Yes, but that still does not change the fact AA looks very much like AN on photos. And disappearing in the same year means nothing. Especially when you disappear three weeks after you're found.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

How do you know the Dr. was right or honest? She may have gotten the bunions standing up at the munitions factory.

According to her family, she had no bunions on her feet. None whatsoever.

Blurry pictures. She sure didn't get 5 points on that DNA test.

DNA tests have points?

Then I defer to Oxlee.

Who compared 1 photo of FS (unauthenticated) and 1 photo of AA, taken from slightly different angles. Very scientific proof!

Oh yes he did, it's well documented he was in on starting it, even helped pick the name. He's the one who enlisted Fallows.

He brought in Fallows, but had nothing to do with Grandanor. Nothing. Please read up on this.

Or they could have been curled with a curling iron and she stopped. Or it could have been a lie. Either way it doesn't matter, hair is too easy to change. You can see in the pic of FS her hair was parted on the side exactly like AA's.

Maybe she lost her curling iron in the canal......

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by Russophile

Indeed! I have been on the receiving end of somebody not happy with my posts about Anna Anderson/Anastasia/others involved and have had that person post my personal information on the Internet. So I don't fault DaveK or FerrymansDaughter or Anna was Franziska for wanting a degree of anonyminity on this volatile subject!

We agree on something! The internet is too big and too full of weirdos or potential dangers. It's bad enough being harassed on the computer, but if it could cross over into your real life, that's unacceptable. No one should have to reveal their own personal info if they don't want to, and no one should do it for them. It's wrong.

[TheTruth]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Yes, but that still does not change the fact AA looks very much like AN on photos. And disappearing in the same year means nothing. Especially when you disappear three weeks after you're found.

How can you talk in weeks when we don't even know for sure when she was born ?

[AnastasiaEvidence]

We agree on something! The internet is too big and too full of weirdos or potential dangers. It's bad enough being harassed on the computer, but if it could cross over into your real life, that's unacceptable. No one should have to reveal their own personal info if they don't want to, and no one should do it for them. It's wrong.

Yes, that's why it's best not to use your full name in your username. Thousands of people from all over the internet can get your personal information. It's terrible when a problem on the internet can effect your entire life.That's why it's also not good to put your exact location online either.

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

CONGENITAL BILATERAL HALLUX VALGUS

According to what I can gather from that paper, he's saying that bilateral hallux valgus is a common condition but is extremely rare in infants. That's right there in the first couple of sentences. Unless I'm missing something, this extreme rarity they're talking about is specific to seeing this condition in infants, especially ones who've never worn shoes.

Names, please.

I believe AwF has been talking about Geoffrey Oxlee. In the NOVA programme, it said something about the ear matching (which according to one expert was 5/5 for one ear and 4/5 for the other) being disputed by another expert but no names were given, and without a transcript I don't know if a name was given in the programme itself.

There is no conflicts about her eye color, the only one who said that she had grey eyes, was Gibbes, who also described Maria's blue eyes as "nice grey".
And there are really no disagreement of the haircolor, Olga just thought it looked a little darker.

Well, it looks as though one person said it was a little darker, one said it was a little lighter, and this is being interpreted as "they were identical." I don't think this is all that convincing, to be honest.

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

DNA tests have points?

Well, they did use six DNA loci in the test, so it's not that laughable a comparison.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by TheTruth

How can you talk in weeks when we don't even know for sure when she was born ?

According to the Berlin Police records, AA was found on February 17th, 1920. Franzisca's "Abmeldung" was dated March 9, 1920. Felix Schanzkowski got a birthday card from Franzisca 8 to 12 days after his birthday on February 17th where his sister apologized for her tardiness due to loads of work.

[TheTruth]

Well now I don't understand why DNA tests says it's FS and the dates don't match. To me, I'll always question more dates than scientific proof.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

I believe AwF has been talking about Geoffrey Oxlee. In the NOVA programme, it said something about the ear matching (which according to one expert was 5/5 for one ear and 4/5 for the other) being disputed by another expert but no names were given, and without a transcript I don't know if a name was given in the programme itself.

I've been looking for my copy of the episode so I could transcribe it myself but it isn't in my video cabinet. Oxlee was the forensic identity specialist who said the faces of AA and FS were perfect match. I don't remember the name of the ones who did the ears.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by TheTruth

Well now I don't understand why DNA tests says it's FS and the dates don't match. To me, I'll always question more dates than scientific proof.

Just because she wasn't reported missing immediately doesn't mean it wasn't FS. We're talking about a poor girl living far from her family in impoverished postwar (WWI) Berlin, not the 21st century where everyone is in constant contact via cell phone and email freaks out when someone doesn't answer. In the old days, people were lucky to get a letter once every few months. They probably didn't even have access to phones as her relatives were very poor and lived way out in the country. In those days it was not uncommon not to hear from someone for a long time. It's still the same time frame, more than close enough considering the time and place.

In 1993, Michael Jordan's father was murdered, thrown in a bog and found rotten before anyone in the family even noticed he was missing. They said it wasn't unusual for him to go off on long trips alone and not call home. So there's really no meaning to FS not being reported missing right away. The people she was lodging with may have thought she just ran off with a guy or something.

Also, about Chat's infamous 'card', he keeps changing the story every time he tells it. There is no proof the card even existed, no one ever saw it, or its postmark. Besides we will never know how long the mail took it to get there. It was war ravaged country suffering from hyperinflation at the time.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Just because she wasn't reported missing immediately doesn't mean it wasn't FS. We're talking about a poor girl living far from her family in impoverished postwar (WWI) Berlin, not the 21st century where everyone is in constant contact via cell phone and email freaks out when someone doesn't answer. In the old days, people were lucky to get a letter once every few months. They probably didn't even have access to phones as her relatives were very poor and lived way out in the country. In those days it was not uncommon not to hear from someone for a long time. It's still the same time frame, more than close enough considering the time and place.

Pure speculation. Nothing more, nothing less. And how poor was she? Seems that she could afford a curling iron. And her parents did not live way out in the country, they lived in a village in Pomerania. And we don't even know if it was Franziska herself who gave the Abmeldung to the police or if it was the Wingenders. All we know for sure, is that Frau Wingender, "at some time in March, contacted Franziska's family to report that she had disappeared."

In 1993, Michael Jordan's father was murdered, thrown in a bog and found rotten before anyone in the family even noticed he was missing. They said it wasn't unusual for him to go off on long trips alone and not call home. So there's really no meaning to FS not being reported missing right away. The people she was lodging with may have thought she just ran off with a guy or something.

More speculation.

Also, about Chat's infamous 'card', he keeps changing the story every time he tells it. There is no proof the card even existed, no one ever saw it, or its postmark. Besides we will never know how long the mail took it to get there. It was war ravaged country suffering from hyperinflation at the time.

No, this is not my card, this is the card that Felix told Dr. Völler about when the latter went to Ammendorf to collect Felix for the meeting with his alleged sister. And I am not changing my story, Felix said that he received the card from 8 to 12 days late (after all, it was 7 years later when he told the story!), and he believed it was postmarked as having come from Berlin.
(Now, why didn't Martin Knopf think of calling in the family to identify FS right away? Why was this left to AA's supporters? Curious and curiouser.)

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

According to what I can gather from that paper, he's saying that bilateral hallux valgus is a common condition but is extremely rare in infants. That's right there in the first couple of sentences. Unless I'm missing something, this extreme rarity they're talking about is specific to seeing this condition in infants, especially ones who've never worn shoes.

And I was talking about congenital bilateral Hallux Valgus. Also, it was more developed in the right foot than the left on both AA and AN.

Well, it looks as though one person said it was a little darker, one said it was a little lighter, and this is being interpreted as "they were identical." I don't think this is all that convincing, to be honest.

When I come home and have access to my library, I will give you Gleb Botkin's description.

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

And I was talking about congenital bilateral Hallux Valgus. Also, it was more developed in the right foot than the left on both AA and AN.

I was also talking about congenital bilateral hallux valgus. I was saying that in the link you gave, they said that this condition was rare in infants, not that it was rare in general. In my previous post I was also asking for some numbers to show the rarity of this condition, as well as for links to the sources giving the statistics.

How rare is it for this condition to be differential from one foot to the other? Do we know the angles of the deformity for either Anastasia or Anna Anderson?

[ChatNoir]

[quote=Elspeth;792297]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

And I was talking about congenital bilateral Hallux Valgus. Also, it was more developed in the right foot than the left on both AA and AN.


I was also talking about congenital bilateral hallux valgus. I was saying that in the link you gave, they said that this condition was rare in infants, not that it was rare.

Now I am confused. I always thought "congenital" means "present from birth". Then again, English is not my first language, but if congenital means what I think it means, then infants should be the ones to have congenital hallux valgus. And according to Dr. Rudnev, AA's case was so severe "that it could only have been present from birth." Pictures of AN as a child show hallux valgus on her visible naked right foot.

As for the angles, there is no information here whatsoever.

[Elspeth]

I think congenital has more of a meaning of "innate" rather than "present from birth." A congenital defect can make itself known later in life, but its defining factor is that it doesn't have an external cause, or at least a known external cause.

I'll try and post a bit more later, but I need to shut the computer down because we're in the middle of a rather severe thunderstorm and the power is going a bit weird.

[ChatNoir]

From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

1 a: existing at or dating from birth <congenital deafness> b: constituting an essential characteristic : inherent <congenital fear of snakes> c: acquired during development in the uterus and not through heredity <congenital syphilis>2: being such by nature <a congenital liar>

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

More speculation.

What do you call your idea about what "MIGHT" have happened to the intestines and the hair? You don't even have any guesses, only that it had to have happened because you want AA to be AN.

But really, the late report of FS being missing does not mean she was 'in two places at once.' The trial went on for three decades, they didn't think that, it wasn't true. And remember, the DNA did match (as well as the face) Ernie's detective was right.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

I was also talking about congenital bilateral hallux valgus. I was saying that in the link you gave, they said that this condition was rare in infants, not that it was rare in general. In my previous post I was also asking for some numbers to show the rarity of this condition, as well as for links to the sources giving the statistics.

How rare is it for this condition to be differential from one foot to the other? Do we know the angles of the deformity for either Anastasia or Anna Anderson?

Shura saying she had it in the Kurth book is the first I ever heard of AN having it. It's not mentioned in any of the books or diaries or eyewitness accounts by those who knew the family. There are plenty of reports of Anastasia being a tomboy, climbing trees and jumping, and pictures of her playing tennis. I really don't think her feet were so bad or bothered her all that much.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

What do you call your idea about what "MIGHT" have happened to the intestines and the hair? You don't even have any guesses, only that it had to have happened because you want AA to be AN.

As I said, I will not speculate. And I don't want AA to be anybody, I just find the mystery fascinating.

But really, the late report of FS being missing does not mean she was 'in two places at once.' The trial went on for three decades, they didn't think that, it wasn't true. And remember, the DNA did match (as well as the face) Ernie's detective was right.

What does the lenght of the trial have to do with the late report of FS missing?