Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

But your version of 'facts' is only a quote from Kurth's book by one of her supporters. You deny everything else. This is not 'facts.'


Then why do you still keep defending her claim?

You latch onto this and make a big deal out of it while ignoring all the scientific proof. I'm sure he never meant for it to be taken that way. You also need to explain why the hair also matched the intestines. The odds of both of them matching on two different switches/errors is impossible, therefore perhaps you lean toward intentional wrongdoing? By who? Please give facts to explain why you would feel this way.

When the scientific results on the new bodies come in at the end of this month, will you finally admit there were no survivors?

Is there ANYTHING that will ever make you admit she was FS? People have told me that if AA came back from the dead and told you herself she wasn't AN you still wouldn't believe it. What would it take?

May I ask you: Why is this so important to you?

 

[ChatNoir]

We don't know that at all. Her DNA matched theirs 99.9%. According to all the news services whenever a new story comes out, 'A woman named AA claimed for decades to be AN, but was later proven by DNA testing to be a Polish factory worker named FS.' It's pretty much accepted fact and common knowledge now save conspiracy theorists.

And just because several news services claim a thing, I am automatically supposed to believe it?

 

[ChatNoir]

But your version of 'facts' is only a quote from Kurth's book by one of her supporters. You deny everything else. This is not 'facts.'

As you may have noted, I quote from several sources. And I do not deny everything else, I simply try to decide if it is true or not.

Then why do you still keep defending her claim?

I am just sticking to the known facts. That they happen to be in her favor, is not my fault.

You latch onto this and make a big deal out of it while ignoring all the scientific proof. I'm sure he never meant for it to be taken that way. You also need to explain why the hair also matched the intestines. The odds of both of them matching on two different switches/errors is impossible, therefore perhaps you lean toward intentional wrongdoing? By who? Please give facts to explain why you would feel this way.

As Ibsen said: Jeg svarer ei, mitt kall er kun at spørge.

When the scientific results on the new bodies come in at the end of this month, will you finally admit there were no survivors?

Let's see what happens.

Is there ANYTHING that will ever make you admit she was FS? People have told me that if AA came back from the dead and told you herself she wasn't AN you still wouldn't believe it. What would it take?

Why is my opinion so important to you?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

As you may have noted, I quote from several sources. And I do not deny everything else, I simply try to decide if it is true or not.

I am just sticking to the known facts. That they happen to be in her favor, is not my fault.

I keep saying, they're not necessarily 'facts' and you disregard all other 'facts' as lies. This is why it's so frustrating. No matter what I say you only say the same things over and over.

As Ibsen said: Jeg svarer ei, mitt kall er kun at spørge.

I don't think Ibsen has anything to do with AA. Remember, you like 'sticking to facts' so let's have some about why the DNA is wrong and why the sample is not AA's. Stick to the facts now!

Let's see what happens.

I will be interested to see what you say.

Why is my opinion so important to you?

Because it bothers me that you so strongly press her case and it sometimes misleads innocent people. They need to know the real facts, that dna proved AA wasn't AN.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

One more thing I wanted add on the subject of AA and languages- she had that one rugged sounding accent, yet the real AN was known for her skill in picking up not only languages but accents. Her special gift was she was able t mimic anyone and their accent perfectly and entertain the other children guessing who she was imitating. AN would have spoken much better than AA.

Also one member on the AP whose husband is Russian said that AA's accent sounded Polish to him and he, being Russian, couldn't understand how anyone could think it was Russian.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

May I ask you: Why is this so important to you?

Remember, you like to stick to the facts. So let's hear them. If you have no facts to tell us explaining why the DNA tests don't count, I suppose you don't have a case. May I have your sources, please?

 

[ChatNoir]

Remember, you like to stick to the facts. So let's hear them. If you have no facts to tell us explaining why the DNA tests don't count, I suppose you don't have a case. May I have your sources, please?

I think I have already covered this.

 

[ChatNoir]

I keep saying, they're not necessarily 'facts' and you disregard all other 'facts' as lies. This is why it's so frustrating. No matter what I say you only say the same things over and over.

Of course I say the same things over and over. I don't change anything.

I don't think Ibsen has anything to do with AA. Remember, you like 'sticking to facts' so let's have some about why the DNA is wrong and why the sample is not AA's. Stick to the facts now!

I don't speculate.

I will be interested to see what you say.

Then you will have to wait and see, won't you.

Because it bothers me that you so strongly press her case and it sometimes misleads innocent people. They need to know the real facts, that dna proved AA wasn't AN.

Mislead innocent people? Pleeeeze, I think the innocent masses are intelligent enough to make up their own mind. Besides, how many people read my posts anyway?

 

[ChatNoir]

One more thing I wanted add on the subject of AA and languages- she had that one rugged sounding accent, yet the real AN was known for her skill in picking up not only languages but accents. Her special gift was she was able t mimic anyone and their accent perfectly and entertain the other children guessing who she was imitating. AN would have spoken much better than AA.

She would, wouldn't she. According to her childhood friend, Gleb Botkin, the children had a Russian accent when speaking English, and an English accent when speaking Russian. An accent quite their own.

Also one member on the AP whose husband is Russian said that AA's accent sounded Polish to him and he, being Russian, couldn't understand how anyone could think it was Russian.

And another member, whose husband was from St. Petersburg, swore that she had a St. Petersburg accent.

 

[Menarue]

Mislead innocent people? Pleeeeze, I think the innocent masses are intelligent enough to make up their own mind. Besides, how many people read my posts anyway?

I am interested in this case, I have had my thoughts about it but I must say that the photographs pasted by Anastasia have clinched the matter for me, I have great faith in DNA and the likeness between these people has made up my mind forever. In this thread a lot of emphasis has been put on ears, eyes etc. These photographs show me, and I have no doubt about it, FS is AA.
I have noticed over the years that young people can be considered different in looks from their parents and siblings but as they get older they seem to become more like them and sometimes show more clearly ethnical origins.
I remember something written about the Jerome grandmother of Winston Churchill who became more native Indian looking in her old age. I believe her grandchildren nicknamed her Sitting Bull. The two old ladies in these photographs could be one and the same person.
I am completely convinced.
(but still interested in the subject).

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

I have noticed over the years that young people can be considered different in looks from their parents and siblings but as they get older they seem to become more like them ...

Indeed - which might explain the fact that as an old lady, AA looked incredibly like Anastasia's Aunt Xenia.

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

But your version of 'facts' is only a quote from Kurth's book by one of her supporters. You deny everything else. This is not 'facts.'?

Peter's book is the most thorough about AA - he researched for seven years. It includes extensive footnotes so that we can ascertain sources, etc. Many of the books you mentioned do not do this - Klier & Mingay in particular is hopeless in this regard. If you want to know who said what and when, Peter's book is the quickest way to track down that source.

When the scientific results on the new bodies come in at the end of this month, will you finally admit there were no survivors?

And if the results show that there is doubt that these are the bodies of Alexei and Anastasia, what will you say?

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

that Gleb had written a novel called "The Baron's Fancy" that seemed to tell out the AA story before it happened
.

This was published in 1930 so how could it "tell out the whole AA story before it happened" when AA appeared in 1920? Incidentally, is this a book you have actually read? If so, can you tell us the plot?

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

A supporters really push this a bit too hard. I realize they are desperate to do so since those who knew AN well said she did NOT use German and you're trying to come up with excuses why she could have, but if you're going to go by quotes from eyewitnesses you have to accept theirs, too, even though they disagree with your perceived view..

I'm not desperate at all - in fact you appear so desperate to "prove" that AA knew no German that you are the one ignoring proven FACTS - Anastasia did know German and the schoolbooks produced as evidence during the court cases prove it was better than her Russian. Just because she didn't chat with Sophie Buxhoevden or Auntie Olga in German doesn't mean she couldn't speak it if she had to!

but if you're going to go by quotes from eyewitnesses you have to accept theirs, too, even though they disagree with your perceived view...

Pot and kettle comes to mind.

Massie's book, Godl's site, and other books I no longer have handy. I have been reading on this subject for 32 years now, I see a lot, don't always have a page number handy. ...

If you can't quote sources but merely gossip and speculation, why would we believe that you know what you are talking about? Are you sure you have actually read all the books you are quoting?

Obviously? That's not the way it was quoted in Klier's book.....

I thought you had been reading on this subject for 32 years - you must have come across this letter in other books. Also, I have read Klier's book fairly recently and it came across in that book exactly the way I understand it, so it must be your personal interpretation.

In the end you can never trump the truth. History and science have spoken. The DNA tests proved AA was not AN and matched FS's family. ...

What about the DNA tests done on AA's blood (which had a clear and proven custody trail from her doctor )which said that she was not AN but definitely not FS either? This shows there are anomalies when dealing with DNA.

Now the bones found last summer are proven to be the last two missing kids, whichever daughter it is, they are now all accounted for. .

The complete test results have still to be announced.

 

[Menarue]

Can anyone tell me anything about the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich, uncle of Nicholas II and his descendants if any? Also who was Snetkova.
I am very curious about these people.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I'm not desperate at all - in fact you appear so desperate to "prove" that AA knew no German that you are the one ignoring proven FACTS - Anastasia did know German and the schoolbooks produced as evidence during the court cases prove it was better than her Russian. Just because she didn't chat with Sophie Buxhoevden or Auntie Olga in German doesn't mean she couldn't speak it if she had to!

This is quite a stretch, and pure speculation.

If you can't quote sources but merely gossip and speculation, why would we believe that you know what you are talking about?

This is exactly what I'm trying to say about the position held by you and Chat. We now have scientific proof that AA was not AN and that the entire family died in 1918, making all the survivor stories impossible. Therefore if you cannot produce a source proving that the intestines were not AA's, or that the tests were rigged, you have nothing to stand on, other than, well, rumors and speculation.

AA supporters love to drag out lists of quotes from Kurth's book, this person said this or that (though in almost every case it was refuted by conveniently ignored comments from those on the other side) yet none of this matters anymore since we know that AA was not AN. We will never be able to prove who all helped AA with what but we know they had to because she wasn't AN. This is NOT speculation, this is logical deduction.

So, if you can't produce any proof that the intestine labeled as AA's was not hers, or that the hair labeled as AA's which perfectly matched the intestines was not hers, there's no case here. Come on, sources, proof, names and dates, who switched it, with what, when how and why. If you believe the swap happened during the 'chain of custody' please tell us how. If you believe the rigging was done in the labs, please tell us the names of the scientists who are guilty and who paid them off, and why. If all you have is a theory this 'may' have happened, then there is nothing there. The test results stand, and AA not AN so the rest is pointless.

I will not waste my time matching 75 year old quotes with any of you until you are able to do this.

Happy 4th of July weekend all Americans

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Can anyone tell me anything about the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich, uncle of Nicholas II and his descendants if any? Also who was Snetkova.
I am very curious about these people.

This would be a very good topic for a thread in the regular "Russian family" section, please start one!

I never heard of the second person. GD Michael is the head of the 'Mikhailovich' line of the family which included Nicholas's cousins/best friends, Sandro and Sergei.

Sergei died in the mine pit with Ella. Older brothers Nicholas and George were also killed by the Bolsheviks.

The second brother, Michael, known as "Miche Miche", was exiled for marrying a 'commoner', a granddaughter of the poet Pushkin. They lived in the UK and had 3 children.

Sandro (Alexander) married Nicholas's sister Xenia, and they had 7 children. The oldest, a daughter, married Felix Yussoupov and had one daughter, whose descendants live in Greece. There were also six sons, whose numerous descendants live in the US and UK. I believe all of the children had children.

The only daughter, Anastasia, was the mother of Cecilie, who married the Crown Prince of Germany, the Kaiser's oldest sons, so her descendants are the 'heirs' to the Hohenzollern line.

 

[Menarue]

Thanks Annaw. That was very interesting and helpful, now there is only one name to investigate - Snetkova.

 

[ChatNoir]

This is quite a stretch, and pure speculation.

On the contrary, this is facts. Irrefutable facts.
1. The German teacher's name was Herr Kleinenberg.
2. In Anastasia's school books, purchased at an auction in London, she clearly demonstrates that she had a better grip on written German than written Russian.
3. Gilliard's time tables from Tobolsk, now on display at the University in Lausanne, clearly showed that the Grand Duchesses took German lessons every day.

And she DID chat with Olga in German. She never spoke good German like Franziska, and had a heavy Russian accent (see Buxhoeveden testimony).

This is exactly what I'm trying to say about the position held by you and Chat. We now have scientific proof that AA was not AN and that the entire family died in 1918, making all the survivor stories impossible. Therefore if you cannot produce a source proving that the intestines were not AA's, or that the tests were rigged, you have nothing to stand on, other than, well, rumors and speculation.

I would first like to see a legal decision that AA was not AN.

AA supporters love to drag out lists of quotes from Kurth's book, this person said this or that (though in almost every case it was refuted by conveniently ignored comments from those on the other side)

Could we have some examples here, please.

yet none of this matters anymore since we know that AA was not AN. We will never be able to prove who all helped AA with what but we know they had to because she wasn't AN. This is NOT speculation, this is logical deduction.

In other words, you would only like to look at ONE part of the proof and disregard everything else.

So, if you can't produce any proof that the intestine labeled as AA's was not hers, or that the hair labeled as AA's which perfectly matched the intestines was not hers, there's no case here.

So why do you bother at all?

Come on, sources, proof, names and dates, who switched it, with what, when how and why. If you believe the swap happened during the 'chain of custody' please tell us how. If you believe the rigging was done in the labs, please tell us the names of the scientists who are guilty and who paid them off, and why. If all you have is a theory this 'may' have happened, then there is nothing there. The test results stand, and AA not AN so the rest is pointless.

Nobody is arguing with the test results. It's the chain of custody that is shady here.

I will not waste my time matching 75 year old quotes with any of you until you are able to do this.

Then don't.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

On the contrary, this is facts. Irrefutable facts.
1. The German teacher's name was Herr Kleinenberg.
2. In Anastasia's school books, purchased at an auction in London, she clearly demonstrates that she had a better grip on written German than written Russian.
3. Gilliard's time tables from Tobolsk, now on display at the University in Lausanne, clearly showed that the Grand Duchesses took German lessons every day.

NONE of this proves that AN would have been able to speak German functionally. Witnesses, yes even Gilliard, said she couldnt't speak it. Bux said she knew 'a few words.' I know a few words, too. That doesn't mean it's suddenly going to be my main way to communicate as it was for AA/FS.

And she DID chat with Olga in German.

Well of course, since she didn't know how to speak English, Russian or French! Bux also stated that she spoke to her in English in phrases she used on the kids and it was clear she did not understand a word.

I would first like to see a legal decision that AA was not AN.

It's accepted historical and scientific fact. If you feel the need to go to court go on.

Could we have some examples here, please.

For one thing, the languages! EVERYTHING!

In other words, you would only like to look at ONE part of the proof and disregard everything else.

YES! Because the DNA makes the rest of it useless and invalid.

Nobody is arguing with the test results. It's the chain of custody that is shady here.

What's so 'shady?' This is your speculation and guessing and hoping. Please tell us what happened, when, how and where and who did it. If you cannot do this you are only speculating and you have nothing.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I am going now, I will be gone for a few days, I leave you with this. (still waiting for sources and proof)

This is quite a stretch, and pure speculation.


This is exactly what I'm trying to say about the position held by you and Chat. We now have scientific proof that AA was not AN and that the entire family died in 1918, making all the survivor stories impossible. Therefore if you cannot produce a source proving that the intestines were not AA's, or that the tests were rigged, you have nothing to stand on, other than, well, rumors and speculation.

AA supporters love to drag out lists of quotes from Kurth's book, this person said this or that (though in almost every case it was refuted by conveniently ignored comments from those on the other side) yet none of this matters anymore since we know that AA was not AN. We will never be able to prove who all helped AA with what but we know they had to because she wasn't AN. This is NOT speculation, this is logical deduction.

So, if you can't produce any proof that the intestine labeled as AA's was not hers, or that the hair labeled as AA's which perfectly matched the intestines was not hers, there's no case here. Come on, sources, proof, names and dates, who switched it, with what, when how and why. If you believe the swap happened during the 'chain of custody' please tell us how. If you believe the rigging was done in the labs, please tell us the names of the scientists who are guilty and who paid them off, and why. If all you have is a theory this 'may' have happened, then there is nothing there. The test results stand, and AA not AN so the rest is pointless.

I will not waste my time matching 75 year old quotes with any of you until you are able to do this.

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

This is quite a stretch, and pure speculation.

Actually it is FACT that she could speak some German. As I keep saying, her schoolbooks PROVE this. You accept that Anastasia could speak Russian so how do explain the fact that she was better at her German lessons than at her Russian ones? Do you understand the definition of "fact"? Apparently not

So, if you can't produce any proof that the intestine labeled as AA's was not hers, or that the hair labeled as AA's which perfectly matched the intestines was not hers, there's no case here. Come on, sources, proof, names and dates, who switched it, with what, when how and why. If you believe the swap happened during the 'chain of custody' please tell us how. If you believe the rigging was done in the labs, please tell us the names of the scientists who are guilty and who paid them off, and why. If all you have is a theory this 'may' have happened, then there is nothing there. The test results stand, and AA not AN so the rest is pointless.

I have NEVER said that I think the intestines were swapped. What I believe is that DNA is not perfect and there are anomalies, therefore it should be looked at as PART of the whole evidence, including testimony.

Incidentally, you have not answered my question about the DNA tests on the blood sample.

 

[ChatNoir]

NONE of this proves that AN would have been able to speak German functionally. Witnesses, yes even Gilliard, said she couldnt't speak it. Bux said she knew 'a few words.' I know a few words, too. That doesn't mean it's suddenly going to be my main way to communicate as it was for AA/FS.

Who said that AA spoke German functionally? She spoke "a hopelessly muddled German with no regard for grammar." And as for Gilliard, wasn't he the one who said that the Grand Duchesses knew no German? Well, so much for his credibility.

Well of course, since she didn't know how to speak English, Russian or French! Bux also stated that she spoke to her in English in phrases she used on the kids and it was clear she did not understand a word.

And how was it clear that she did not understand a word? When Bella Cohen spoke English to her, she answered back in English.

It's accepted historical and scientific fact. If you feel the need to go to court go on.

No, I feel no need to go to court, I didn't even know the lady.

For one thing, the languages! EVERYTHING!

Yes, we have quotes here from Olga and Gilliard that she knew no German. Sorry, they have been proven wrong. Anybody else?

YES! Because the DNA makes the rest of it useless and invalid.

Then why are you arguing so hard against her?

What's so 'shady?' This is your speculation and guessing and hoping. Please tell us what happened, when, how and where and who did it. If you cannot do this you are only speculating and you have nothing.

No, I have nothing. And I refuse to speculate.

Yes I do,

Amazing, after all these years you believe AA to be FS and me to be Peter Kurth. Can anybody see the irony here?

 

[Russophile]

Chat, do you want a legal decision--is it because of the claim by Maria V. for her son and the throne??

 

[ChatNoir]

Chat, do you want a legal decision--is it because of the claim by Maria V. for her son and the throne??

I just want to see if the DNA can withstand the scrutiny of the law.

Did you know that Vera von Klementz said that in was clear to her that AA had learned to play the piano? I cannot help wonder where FS took her 'Klavierunterrichtung'.

 

[Russophile]

I just want to see if the DNA can withstand the scrutiny of the law.

Did you know that Vera von Klementz said that in was clear to her that AA had learned to play the piano? I cannot help wonder where FS took her 'Klavierunterrichtung'.

AA played the piano? Did AN play?

 

[COUNTESS]

I just want to see if the DNA can withstand the scrutiny of the law.

Did you know that Vera von Klementz said that in was clear to her that AA had learned to play the piano? I cannot help wonder where FS took her 'Klavierunterrichtung'.

Where have you been? It has withstood the scrutiny of the law and of science. DNA has become a the very door that has opened the doors for those who have been wrongly imprisoned. All the other stuff in these discussions are pure speculation on both parts. DNA is science. A good portion of the people who think AA was AN, never met Anatasia. A good portion of Anastasia's family say AA wasn't her. Several have written books and have made money from their ventures saying whatever they wished. I have "no dog in this fight", just an expression. But DNA is sceience and very legally accepted.

 

[ChatNoir]

Where have you been?

Right here by the computer.

It has withstood the scrutiny of the law and of science. DNA has become a the very door that has opened the doors for those who have been wrongly imprisoned. All the other stuff in these discussions are pure speculation on both parts. DNA is science.

I don't think we are disputing that.

A good portion of the people who think AA was AN, never met Anatasia.

And a good portion of the people who met Anastasia thought that AA was AN.

A good portion of Anastasia's family say AA wasn't her.

And how many of the family met AA?

Several have written books and have made money from their ventures saying whatever they wished. I have "no dog in this fight", just an expression. But DNA is sceience and very legally accepted.

Then why has there been no legal decision in the AA case?

 

[ChatNoir]

You posted a picture of it over on King and Wilson. Aaaah. I miss that forum!
AA played the piano? Did AN play?

Yes, AN played. When Mrs. Hesse asked AA who Conrad was, AA smiled and made movements with her hands as if playing the piano. It turned out that Conrad was the piano teacher at the Alexander Palace, and the only reason Mrs. Hesse knew about him, was that her own children took lessons from him as well. He was not very well known at the court, and his name was seldom mentioned.
As I have said before: That Franziska was something else.

 

[Elspeth]

This is a reminder, which shouldn't be necessary but apparently is, to not disclose or speculate on the identities of other posters in this discussion. I've just had to clean up the second outbreak of this in the last few days; it's happening on both sides of the argument, and it needs to stop. People should be able to post here without having their real identities become an issue unless they don't mind.

Please remember this rule

• Please respect the privacy of royals and other public figures, as well as other members of this forum. Personal information that may invade their privacy, such as the posting of private phone numbers or addresses, will be deleted.

and let's put a stop to it before things get any further out of control and before any more members end up being suspended for it.

Elspeth
for the Royal Forums admin team