Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[AnastasiaEvidence]

In the photos ChatNoir, posted I notice a huge difference between AA and Anastasia's lips. Anastasia's nose is very skinny and AA's nose is out of shape. AA did not have any bangs, but Anastasia did!

AA/FS never got the idea to pretend to be any Grand Duchess until the other mental patient said she looked like Tatiana.

Yes, she pretended to be Tatiana first, then someone told her she's too short to be her. So, then she started her claim to be Anastasia.

As you can see in the pictures, her lips healed and the swelling went down. Their chins seem identical to me. And according to Professors Eyckstedt, Klenke, Reche and Furtmayr, their faces were identical. Not to mention Gleb Botkin and Tatiana Botkin who recognized her instantly.

And... you are forgetting about Aunt Olga, Irene, Felix,Sophie and Gilliard. They knew the real Anastasia better than the Botkins and some scientists. They stated that AA couldn't be Anastasia. AA's nose stil looks big to me in that photo. It looks like she is biting her lips to make them appear smaller like Anastasia's.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

In the photos ChatNoir, posted I notice a huge difference between AA and Anastasia's lips. Anastasia's nose is very skinny and AA's nose is out of shape. AA did not have any bangs, but Anastasia did!

A difference, yes, definitely. I guess that's what happens when you receive such a heavy blow to your face that the upper jaw is fractured and you have a scar right through your upper lip. (Testimony from Malinovsky and Rathlef-Keilmann.) Anastasia stopped wearing bangs in Tobolsk.

Yes, she pretended to be Tatiana first, then someone told her she's too short ot be her. So, then she started her claim to be Anastasia.

And your sources are?

And... you are forgetting about Aunt Olga, Irene, Felix,Sophie and Gilliard. They knew the real Anastasia better than the Botkins. They stated that AA couldn't be Anastasia. AA's nose stil looks big to me in that photo. It looks like she is biting her lips to make them appear smaller like Anastasia's.

No, I am not forgetting about anybody. Aunt Olga was the one who said: My heart tells me that she is Anastasia. Irene was the one who said: She is like her, she is like her. Sophie never wavered in her negative verdict, and Gilliard believed in her until the end of January 1927 when he abruptly changed his position, without ever having seen AA again.
They knew AA better than the Botkins? How do you know that?
And this "lip-biting" business is pure fiction. But we all know where it comes from.....

[AnastasiaEvidence]

{ed. - Elspeth}

A difference, yes, definitely. I guess that's what happens when you receive such a heavy blow to your face that the upper jaw is fractured and you have a scar right through your upper lip. (Testimony from Malinovsky and Rathlef-Keilmann.) Anastasia stopped wearing bangs in Tobolsk.

No, Anastasia had bangs in a photo of her in 1918. Haven't you seen this photo of Anastaisa knitting? In 1918!

And your sources are?

We have went over with this so many times. I told you before that Sophie said that in her memoir and letters, she stated that!

No, I am not forgetting about anybody. Aunt Olga was the one who said: My heart tells me that she is Anastasia. Irene was the one who said: She is like her, she is like her. Sophie never wavered in her negative verdict, and Gilliard believed in her until the end of January 1927 when he abruptly changed his position, without ever having seen AA again.

They knew AA better than the Botkins? How do you know that?
And this "lip-biting" business is pure fiction. But we all know where it comes from.....

And...that's not the point. The point is that they all didn't believe that AA was her. You're only trying to make it seem like they said it was her. You know they said that AA wasn't Anastasia. Stop it! They knew AA better than the botkins because they wre her family members, haven't you seen the photos they have took together with OTMA? Tatiana Botkin was a daughter of Gleb Botkin (imperial family servant).

Yes, and do you also remember who ripped the stories on that side to shreds?
Anyway, please get back on topic, this is not the place for a personal vendetta

No, she is just saying why don't you go read the information she has on her website. You're on'y ignoring her website. She's tired of arguing with you, and so am I over the same thing. All the information is on Anna's website. Just go there and read it. It's very interesting.

[ChatNoir]

{ed. - Elspeth}

No, Anastasia had bangs in a photo of her in 1918. Haven't you seen this photo of Anastaisa knitting?

Yes, and it is impossible to see what exact hairstyle she has because of the photo's angle. Witnesses who saw her in Tobolsk, stated that she wore her hair the same way as she did in Berlin. (Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann.)

We have went over with this so many times. I told you before that Sophie said that in her memoir.

How would Sophie know, she was not employed at the asylum.

And...that's not the point. The point is that they all didn't believe that AA was her.

No, not all believed.

No, she is just saying why don't you go read the information she has on her website. She's tired of arguing with you over the same thing. All the information is on Anna's website.

Her website contains very little information and a lot of speculation, but I don't think this is the place for a discussion of it.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

{ed. - Elspeth}

Yes, and it is impossible to see what exact hairstyle she has because of the photo's angle. Witnesses who saw her in Tobolsk, stated that she wore her hair the same way as she did in Berlin. (Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann.)

And...how did AA wear her hair in Berlin? I'm quite sure the hairstyle she wore looked different because her headline is a different shape.

How would Sophie know, she was not employed at the asylum.

Sophie came to the hospital to see if she could identify the woman. She did say she only resemble Tatiana by one thing. But, the rest of her comparison says that nose, lips,mouth and chin didn't look like Tatiana's. Her fingers were too long.

The eyes and forehead showed some resemblance to the Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicolaievna, resemblance that disappeared, nevertheless, as soon as her face was not covered. I had to remove the cover by force, and I saw that neither the nose, the mouth, nor the chin were formed like that of the Grand Duchess. The hair was lighter in color, some of her teeth were missing-and the remaining ones were not like those of the Grand Duchess...Her hands were also completely different, the fingers were longer and the nails narrower.


Then she said this after AA went from Tatiana to Anastasia:
I later learned that the she supposes that she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia, but she does not physically resemble her in the least. She has none of the special characteristics that would allow any one who knew the Grand Duchess Anastasia well to identify her.

No, not all believed.

Not, all of who? Tell me who are you talking about? Well, some did accept AA, but they aren't the people who knew Anastasia and seen her as often.

Her website contains very little information and a lot of speculation, but I don't think this is the place for a discussion of it.

Well, I thought it had great information on her website. She has resources from Gilliard, Robert K. Massie, Sophie, and Gibbes the people who denied AA. She also explains the people such as Anya V, Tatiana Botkin and others who accepted AA's claim. Her website was full of facts explaining how the DNA tests were done, and why people are denying the DNA. You can't barely prove most of Annie's information wrong. I have notice some of the information you're using, you haven't proved it.

[ChatNoir]

{ed. - Elspeth}

And...how did AA wear her hair in Berlin? I'm quite sure the hairstyle she wore looked different because her headline is a different shape.

See photos.

Sophie came to the hospital to see if she could identify the woman. She did say she only resemble Tatiana by one thing. But, the rest of her comparison says that nose, lips,mouth and chin didn't look like Tatiana's. Her fingers were too long.

The eyes and forehead showed some resemblance to the Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicolaievna, resemblance that disappeared, nevertheless, as soon as her face was not covered. I had to remove the cover by force, and I saw that neither the nose, the mouth, nor the chin were formed like that of the Grand Duchess. The hair was lighter in color, some of her teeth were missing-and the remaining ones were not like those of the Grand Duchess...Her hands were also completely different, the fingers were longer and the nails narrower.


Then she said this after AA went from Tatiana to Anastasia:
I later learned that the she supposes that she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia, but she does not physically resemble her in the least. She has none of the special characteristics that would allow any one who knew the Grand Duchess Anastasia well to identify her.

Apparently she did not check on the bilateral Hallux Valgus and the various scars. And she does not mention the eyes either. And AA's hands were completely different? She remembered the exact shape of her hands after more than 4 years? Especially when the patient had lost a lot of weight and was no longer the chubby little girl she last saw on the Rus. Well, it is a testimony against AA, no doubt about that.

Not, all of who? Tell me who are you talking about? Well, some did accept AA, but they aren't the people who knew Anastasia and seen her as often.

I have already given you the names in an earlier post.

Well, I thought it had great information on her website. She has resources from Gilliard, Robert K. Massie, Sophie, and Gibbes the people who denied AA.

What about info from Harriet Rathlef Keilmann, Gleb Botkin, Xenia Leeds, Herluf Zahle?

She also explains the people such as Anya V, Tatiana Botkin and others who accepted AA's claim.

No, she does not explain, she speculates.

Her website was full of facts explaining how the DNA tests were done, and why people are denying the DNA. You can't barely prove most of Annie's information wrong. I have notice some of the information you're using, you haven't proved it.

And that would be what information?

[Anna was Franziska]

Thanks Anastasia evidence. It's evident he's never going to stop believing no matter what, but it's not right to try to mislead other people. Chat, you need to understand that just because a person said something, and you can quote it on page X, that doesn't necessarily make it a 'fact.' Some if them may have been lying, or mistaken. There are just as many quotes on the 'other side' contradicting everything you say. Who's right and who was wrong? The DNA has answered this question. AA = FS not AN.

[ChatNoir]

Listen, I would appreciate if you and Anastasia Evidence could bring some more information to this site than just relentlessly attack me. You know how very, very little I care about your personal opinions. And so far, the DNA has obviously not answered the question, or we would have had a legal ruling long time ago

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Oh, I understand that aspect, Anna. I agree, it isn't right to mislead people into believing AA is A, especially if he doesn't have proof. Not, too many people will believe BlackCat's anyway. Herefuses to except the DNA. That's one fact he can never prove wrong- DNA.

Listen, I would appreciate if you and Anastasia Evidence could bring some more information to this site than just relentlessly attack me. You know how very, very little I care about your personal opinions. And so far, the DNA has obviously not answered the question, or we would have had a legal ruling long time ago

Personal opinions? We have information with facts explaining how, and why Anastasia wasn't Anna Anderson. It's just not right going over the same thing, again. DNA did answer the question, you sure can't prove that wrong. And...your information isn't really proven to be a fact, more of a speculation. At least, our information is proven!

What about info from Harriet Rathlef Keilmann, Gleb Botkin, Xenia Leeds, Herluf Zahle?

Their opinions aren't really relevant, because they didn't know Anastasia as well as Olga Alexandrovna, Princess Irene, Gilliard, Gibbes, Felix Yussopov, or Sophie B. You don't include them, because they don't believe Anastasia was Anna Anderson. Don't you notice the obvious fact that AA never knew any French or Russian, therefore she CAN'T be Anastasia.

[Anna was Franziska]

AA = FS not AN

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

Oh, I understand that aspect, Anna. I agree, it isn't right to mislead people into believing AA is A, especially if he doesn't have proof. Not, too many people will believe BlackCat's anyway. Herefuses to except the DNA. That's one fact he can never prove wrong- DNA.

I think most people on this board are intelligent enough to make their own conclusions.

Personal opinions? We have information with facts explaining how, and why Anastasia wasn't Anna Anderson. It's just not right going over the same thing, again. DNA did answer the question, you sure can't prove that wrong. And...your information isn't really proven to be a fact, more of a speculation. At least, our information is proven!

Proven? Where?

Their opinions aren't really revelant, because they didn't know Anastasia as well as Olga Alexandrovna, Princess Irene, Gilliard, Gibbes, Felix Yussopov, or Sophie B. You don't include them, because they don't believe Anastasia was Anna Anderson. Don't you notice the obvious fact that AA never knew any French or Russian, therefore she CAN'T be Anastasia.

Everybody's opinion is relevant, but some have been found to be blatant lies. And I have already told you about all the people who testified to the fact that AA spoke fluent Russian and at least some French.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

AA = FS not AN

If that was an established fact, we would not have had this discussion.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

AA = FS not AN

Oh,when will this ever end? This is the main point of course! This discussion should be locked!

I think most people on this board are intelligent enough to make their own conclusions.

Yes, but you should also explain, why you believe in what you think!

Everybody's opinion is relevant, but some have been found to be blatant lies. And I have already told you about all the people who testified to the fact that AA spoke fluent Russian and at least some French.

Prove, this to me, then? I haven't seen you do it.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

For goodness sake, you all are killing the horse! It's only you, BlackCat who chooses not to believe in DNA.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

For goodness sake, you all are killing the horse!

I thougth the horse was dead already???!

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

As far as I can see, you may end it right here if you so choose.

Yes, it can. Come with me, accept reality. AA = FS. Let it go.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Yes, it can. Come with me, accept reality. AA = FS. Let it go.

Please??? It would be so great!

Chat (heavy breathing) come to the DARK SIDE. . . .I am your father. . . .

Whatever! You haven't even gave us any evidence or proof.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

Oh,when will this ever end? This is the main point of course! This discussion should be locked!

No, the discussion should not be locked, it should continue in a professional manner without accusations and innuendos.

Yes, but you should also explain, why you believe in what you think!

I have no responsibility to explain to anybody what I think or not. All I want, is to get the information out there from the people who were present when history was made. It is downright scary when I see how little the general public really know about AA and her story.

Prove, this to me, then?

I haven't seen you do it.

Ok, here we go. In the protocols at Dalldorf, it is noted that AA spoke Russian with the nurses there. One of the them, Erna Bucholtz, a language teacher from Lubau, who had lived in Russia, testified that AA spoke Russian like a native, using whole, unimpeded sentences, and not like someone who had learned it later in life. The doctor who examined AA at the Kleist's, said that "she speaks Russian in her sleep, with good pronunciation, but mostly about unimportant things." At the Mommsen Clinic, Harriet Rathlef Keilmann complained to Dr. Rudnev, in Russian, over AA's eating habits, saying that she gave everything to the cat and ate nothing herself. AA protested, in German, saying that she ate enough and did not give anything to the cat. Dr. Rudnev and Frau Rathlef Keilmann had to laugh, and the doctor said to AA: Since you understand Russian perfectly, I shall only address you in that language from now on. AA turned to the wall, covered her head and mumbled: I understood nothing, leave me alone. When Gleb Botkin visited at Seeon, he and Madame Meller were sitting with AA in the park when AA started speaking Russian. Madame Meller clapped her hands and complimented AA on using Russian again, and AA turned to Botkin with tears in her eyes and said: I was not speaking Russian, I was speaking German.
In 1938 she had a good period mentally and apparently lost her fear of speaking Russian. She used it fluently in conversations with Dr. Rudnev and Albert Coyle, an associate of Edward Fallows. (See Fallows' notes.) When the Nazis starting snooping around, she got nervous, shut herself in her apartment and refused to speak Russian anymore.
Later, in America, Xenia Leeds heard her speaking in Russian to her birds, and Mrs. Derfelden told about their strolls in the garden where "AA called all the flowers by their quaint Russian names." Nina Chavchavadze, who did not believe in AA's claim, said: "Whoever she is, she is a lady of high society, and it is not true that she cannot speak Russian."
As for French: She went for breakfast in Paris with Agnes Gallagher, and miss Gallagher had problems ordering since the waiter spoke no English. AA took over, and as miss Gallagher said: "I don't know if she really spoke French, but we got exactly what we ordered for breakfast." Dominique Aucleres stated that she once slipped into French in a conversation with AA, and the latter answered back in French, "with a beautiful accent."

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Yes, it can. Come with me, accept reality. AA = FS. Let it go.

As far as I can see, this has nothing to do with accepting anything, all I want, is to get the facts straight. I have not made it my life's work to disprove or accept AA like some people with websites all over, preaching you-know-what. Can we now get back on topic?

[AnastasiaEvidence]

As far as I can see, this has nothing to do with accepting anything, all I want, is to get the facts straight. I have not made it my life's work to disprove or accept AA like some people with websites all over, preaching you-know-what. Can we now get back on topic?

I believe she's saying except the fact that the DNA is correct and AA is FS. DNA say it was 99.9% possible FS was AA. It does have something to do with excepting reality. Nobody is preaching. Were just here to explain why AA wasn't Anastasia. Chat, you are giving me speculations, and rumors. NOT, PROVEN FACTS! You still haven't prove to me Anastasia knew Russian or French. These are RUMORS. There's a difference between 'rumors' and facts. This wasn't actually confimed! Speculation doesn't help anything. Such as: nurses heard AA speaking French, and the doctor heard her speak Russian, and she didn't want to speak Russian because of a number of reasons....etc. Why didn't see go to Anastasia's family members and prove she knew Russian and French? It wasn't proven in court.

Ok, here we go. In the protocols at Dalldorf, it is noted that AA spoke Russian with the nurses there. One of the them, Erna Bucholtz, a language teacher from Lubau, who had lived in Russia, testified that AA spoke Russian like a native, using whole, unimpeded sentences, and not like someone who had learned it later in life. The doctor who examined AA at the Kleist's, said that "she speaks Russian in her sleep, with good pronunciation, but mostly about unimportant things." At the Mommsen Clinic, Harriet Rathlef Keilmann complained to Dr. Rudnev, in Russian, over AA's eating habits, saying that she gave everything to the cat and ate nothing herself. AA protested, in German, saying that she ate enough and did not give anything to the cat. Dr. Rudnev and Frau Rathlef Keilmann had to laugh, and the doctor said to AA: Since you understand Russian perfectly, I shall only address you in that language from now on. AA turned to the wall, covered her head and mumbled: I understood nothing, leave me alone. When Gleb Botkin visited at Seeon, he and Madame Meller were sitting with AA in the park when AA started speaking Russian. Madame Meller clapped her hands and complimented AA on using Russian again, and AA turned to Botkin with tears in her eyes and said: I was not speaking Russian, I was speaking German.
In 1938 she had a good period mentally and apparently lost her fear of speaking Russian. She used it fluently in conversations with Dr. Rudnev and Albert Coyle, an associate of Edward Fallows. (See Fallows' notes.) When the Nazis starting snooping around, she got nervous, shut herself in her apartment and refused to speak Russian anymore.
Later, in America, Xenia Leeds heard her speaking in Russian to her birds, and Mrs. Derfelden told about their strolls in the garden where "AA called all the flowers by their quaint Russian names." Nina Chavchavadze, who did not believe in AA's claim, said: "Whoever she is, she is a lady of high society, and it is not true that she cannot speak Russian."
As for French: She went for breakfast in Paris with Agnes Gallagher, and miss Gallagher had problems ordering since the waiter spoke no English. AA took over, and as miss Gallagher said: "I don't know if she really spoke French, but we got exactly what we ordered for breakfast." Dominique Aucleres stated that she once slipped into French in a conversation with AA, and the latter answered back in French, "with a beautiful accent."