Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

There is no reasonable way it could have occured. What would they have swapped it with? Where would they get the same exact piece of intestine that was removed from AA, and how would it match the FS family?

So far I have not been able to find out who inititated the search for left-overs of Anna Anderson, who was financing the tests, who organized the transport of the parts to the labs, who selected the labs in the first place, who found the reference DNA from the Romanovs and the Schanzkowskis: who did all that?

As long as I don't have this information and are thus being able to evaluate it to exclude the motive and possibility of tampering I still say that for me that DNA-test is no proof.

Over here in Germany things happened in hospitals which made it to the public knowledge that give me reason not to trust information coming from hospitals too much: pranks have been played in order to joke on DNA-specialists before. Medical staff has a very hands-on approach when it comes to people and as long as nobody is directly hurt by such a prank a lot of folk in the medical profession is quite approachable for ideas that "normal" people would believe to be impossible to imagine. I've quite some doctors in my family, so had to get used to their special kind of humour.

And IIRC Peter Kurtz reported that he had a third sample which simply disappeared after he handed it over for testing....

So I would be very thankful if somebody could enlighten me to the answers of my questions: who initiated and financed the DNA-testings and how did they come about?

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Mitotyping Technologies, LLC | Company

From that site - to all who claim there are 100% and 99.9% results:

"When forensic cases arise where there is insufficient biological material for nuclear DNA typing, mitochondrial DNA analysis can provide valuable supplemental information."

We're talking mitochondrial DNA here, which obviously is only able to provide "supplemental" information, not 100% proof of something.

AFAIK, you can only proof relations via the same gender line, so as Anastasia was a female, you need to have a relative from the female line of her ancestry, no the DoE.

As for reasons why influential members of her family would not want to recognize her and bring other members of the family up to scratch in a denial-policy: I can think of so many valid reasons why in the 1920s no just disposed House would want to accept a "soiled" girl who had born a child in the time she was unaccounted for and of whom nobody knew if there weren't some new "in-laws" waiting in the background... In the 1920s the former rulers all hoped to be called byck to their thrones and I doubt they wanted to present the world a young relative who had been shown by the people's power that she was just a human being like the mob on the steet when stripped of her Imperial trappings.

Today of course we pity poor Anastasia but the ruling families were not know for their pity when it came to their power and the noble facade they wanted to upheld. I'm quite convinced that it was no coincidence that Anna Anderson always found supporters who cared for her because that is the old-fashioned way ruling and noble families took care of their "soiled goods" - send them away to somebody who cares for them for a small allowance. But a former ruler like Ernest of Hesse or a pretender like Kyrill Romanov would never ever have risked
a) any proof that one of the Tsar's family survived - there could be more of them somewhere.
b) to accept a survivor with a mostly unknown but definately "sexually involved" past and unknown state of mind because of her experiences.

[Menarue]

Yes, who financed all this testing? Was AA´s husband wealthy?

[AnastasiaEvidence]

It's quite sad people don't see the differences between AA and Anastasia. On the photos, Anna posted they clearly tell you that they are two different people who don't look alike period. DNA, solved and figured out most of this. Whoever doesn't see a difference needs to get eye glasses.The photographs never lie. It proved that 99% AA was NOT Anastasia. It also proved that AA was FS. AA's lips and eyes resemble Waldred and felix. Look at the photos! Anastasia's mouth, lips, face, headline, and nose don't resemble AA's at all.

[Cumberland]

Anastasia Evidence,

There are striking similarities between the two. While I don't believe she was Anastasia, I surely DO NOT buy the Franziska story.

Do you know that there is only ONE actual photo of Franziska in existence? Which was taken pre WW I.

According to Felix Schanzkowski, the actual brother of FS, his sister spoke German good/well and some Polish. She did not have hallux valgus, she had tiny feet, and she only vaguely resembled his sister from the side.

Also Uncle Ernie was out to destroy her, when he found out her answer to the question of when was the last time you saw your Uncle and her answer was: "Im bei kreige, un zu haus" (In the war at our house) bringing to light the spectre of the Grand Duke's possible secret visit during the war. You may want to get this in your fact book or consult Annie/AWF on this. The Hessian state and people were most generous with its popular ruling family. Ernie sold them the Neue Palais built by his parents, had a considerable fortune, and was given a generous settlement by the state, and kept his status within Hesse. Unfortunately he could not risk the public and the government of Hesse knowing of the trip, while their loved ones were fighting and dying, their Grand Duke was in the enemy camp, it might not set so well with the people, even if it wasn't true, and there is evidence that points to the trip and against it. Ernie couldn't risk the possible forfeiture of his estates, and monies, which was why he was behind the opposition, not because he didn't believe her. The man NEVER met AA.

Before her death in 1950 Irene stated "Yes, yes she is similar, but what does it mean if it is not she?" Even Irene's son recognized her. So this absolute one or the other argument you & Annie keep yammering on about is just not the base for any sound discussion regarding this case. It is NOT just about DNA, DNA may indiciate WHO she wasn't, but in this case regardless of Annie endless ravings, it doesn't prove who she was, and I just do not believe that Franziska Schanzkowska could have successfully pulled a Galatea like transformation as you do. I have always firmly believed that no one could have survived that horrid evening in Ekaterinburg in July, but she definitely wasn't Franziska.



Michael

[Warren]

We need to drop the comments about people needing glasses and we need to get past this "I can/can't see it so why can't/can you?" line of argument.
Members will see what they see, whether it be similarities or differences, and it is unlikely that any number of photographs will sway those who already hold a firm opinion on the matter.

ETA.. members intent on plugging another member's book(s) will have those references deleted in accordance with the parent company's Terms of Service rule regarding commercial solicitation.

Warren
Russian Forums moderator

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by Menarue

Yes, who financed all this testing? Was AA´s husband wealthy?

As I said in post #433, it was Richard and Marina Schweitzer, the daughter and son in law of Gleb Botkin, who was one of AA's strongest supporters. They were the ones who searched for and found the intestine sample, and they were the ones who funded the testing.

Much has been made of the hospital first saying they had no sample, then later finding it. The reason for this is that it was first searched under the name "Anna Anderson" but it was stored under her legal married name, "Anastasia Manahan". Once it was searched under that name, it was found.

The hair sample originally belonged to Kurth. At the time it was sent for testing, he agreed it was hers, but when the results came back negative, he then claimed it was not hers.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Also Uncle Ernie was out to destroy her, when he found out her answer to the question of when was the last time you saw your Uncle and her answer was: "Im bei kreige, un zu haus" (In the war at our house) bringing to light the spectre of the Grand Duke's possible secret visit during the war. You may want to get this in your fact book or consult Lori Stewart/Annie/AWF on this. The Hessian state and people were most generous with its popular ruling family. Ernie sold them the Neue Palais built by his parents, had a considerable fortune, and was given a generous settlement by the state, and kept his status within Hesse. Unfortunately he could not risk the public and the government of Hesse knowing of the trip, while their loved ones were fighting and dying, their Grand Duke was in the enemy camp, it might not set so well with the people, even if it wasn't true, and there is evidence that points to the trip and against it. Ernie couldn't risk the possible forfeiture of his estates, and monies, which was why he was behind the opposition, not because he didn't believe her. The man NEVER met AA.

Yes, Ernie NEVER met AA, but he did see many photos of AA, and he read her story. He didn't have to meet her to see if she was a fraud or not! He knew she was a imposter anyway. Remember when, AA made a trip about Ernie going to Russia in 1916. That wasn't proven. Ernest never was in Russia in 1916.

Before her death in 1950 Irene stated "Yes, yes she is similar, but what does it mean if it is not she?" Even Irene's son recognized her. So this absolute one or the other argument you & Annie/Lori Stewart keep yammering on about is just not the base for any sound discussion regarding this case. It is NOT just about DNA, DNA may indiciate WHO she wasn't, but in this case regardless of Annie/Lori Stewart's endless ravings, it doesn't prove who she was.

I saw immediately that she could not be one of my nieces. Even though I had not seen them for nine years, the fundamental facial characteristics could not have altered to that degree, in particular the position of the eyes, the ear, etc. .. At first sight one could perhaps detect a resemblance to Grand Duchess Tatiana
Irene said this! In Irene's opinion she thought her sight was similar to Tatiana. But, she knew it wasn't her niece anyway. Anastasia's appearance favored Alix! AA doesn't favor Alix period. There were more people who were against her story. Irene, Olga Alexandrovna, Sophie, Gibbes, Gilliard, and Felix Yussuopov.

Anastasia Evidence,

There are striking similarities between the two. While I don't believe she was Anastasia, I surely DO NOT buy the Franziska story.

Do you know that there is only ONE actual photo of Franziska in existence? Which was taken pre WW I.

According to Felix Schanzkowski, the actual brother of FS, his sister spoke German good/well and some Polish. She did not have hallux valgus, she had tiny feet, and she only vaguely resembled his sister from the side.

I don't notice a similarity between AA and Anastasia. Yes, I don't believe she was Anastasia either. Yes, I already know this photo of FS taken in 1915 or 1916. FS, did want to become an actress. FS was mentally ill herself. Just like, AA is.

[Menarue]

The hair sample originally belonged to Kurth. At the time it was sent for testing, he agreed it was hers, but when the results came back negative, he then claimed it was not hers.

........
Hmmmmmm.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

Remember when, AA made a trip about Ernie going to Russia in 1916. That wasn't proven. Ernest never was in Russia in 1916.

That's right, the trip has never been proven. Also there was a book published in Germany in 1922 "In the Face of the Revolution" which alleged Ernie made the trip, so AA and/or her supporters could easily have gotten the idea from that when they made the accusation against him in 1925. It was certainly no 'bombshell only Anastasia could have known' as supporters like to say.

I saw immediately that she could not be one of my nieces...

Irene said this!

Yes she did, and she did meet her in person. She also noted that AA did not recognize her, and became irate when she found out she had been 'tricked' into meeting "Aunt Irene" (apparently because she wasn't warned first)

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Menarue

A polite question Chat. Why are you so keen to prove that AA was Anastasia, did you know her? Are you related to her? I really can´t understand someone even consulting a lawyer about it. DNA cannot be denied, a likeness?

Actually, I am not so keen to prove anything, I am more trying to correct all the wrong information that seems to creep up on every "Anastasia/Anna Anderson" board due to the neclect of their members to really study the subject before they opine. I have read at least a dozen books, if not more, on this particular subject, and the more I find, the more difficult it is to understand that the two women were not the same.
As for taking it to court, it would show the world that the DNA proof is enough to legally establish Anna Anderson as someone else than Anastasia, and all this discussion would come to an end. But so far, nobody has been able to do that due to the poor chain of custody of the intestine sample and the hair. Elspeth asked a question that I have been asking myself over and over: How could the two samples carry the same DNA? The truth is, I don't know. All I know, is that a blood sample from Anna Anderson, taken in Germany in the 50's produced a different DNA sequence than the putative sample from AA that Dr. Gill worked on.

[Cumberland]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

Yes, Ernie NEVER met AA, but he did see many photos of AA, and he read her story. He didn't have to meet her to see if she was a fraud or not! He knew she was aimposter anyway. Remember when, AA made a trip about Ernie going to Russia in 1916. That wasn't proven. Ernest never was in Russia in 1916.

I saw immediately that she could not be one of my nieces. Even though I had not seen them for nine years, the fundamental facial characteristics could not have altered to that degree, in particular the position of the eyes, the ear, etc. .. At first sight one could perhaps detect a resemblance to Grand Duchess Tatiana
Irene said this!


I don't notice a similarity between AA and Anastasia. Yes, I don't believe she was Anastasia either. Yes, I already know this photo of FS taken in 1915 or 1916.

There is NO solid proof to indicate that Ernest did or did not make the trip to Russia in 1916, that is a fact. Many people highly placed within the Hohenzollern family spoke of it, two being the Duchess of Brunswick, and the Crown Princess, and the German High Command. I would also think that before declaring someone is a fraud, a person would have to meet them to decide, not declare from photos that were doctored to look one way or the other. Also, just remember that Ernie was in a precarious position after war and in the 1920's, and this didn't start until the answer to her question was given, "At our home, during the war." Just some food for thought. I really wish you would stop defending them as thought they are paragons of virtue, in reality people on both sides were entirely different than the snapshots of this case present them.

Where does this quote from Irene come from? Because mine comes from Massie's book.

There are many similarities, but not enough to change my opinion of what happened in July in Ekaterinburg.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

That's right, the trip has never been proven. Also there was a book published in Germany in 1922 "In the Face of the Revolution" which alleged Ernie made the trip, so AA and/or her supporters could easily have gotten the idea from that when they made the accusation against him in 1925. It was certainly no 'bombshell only Anastasia could have known' as supporters like to say.

That Ernest took the trip, has never been proven in court. But after Amy Smith went to Darmstadt to talk to Ernest (who refused to meet with her and sent Count Hardenberg in his place), she realized that she was touching on a very sore point by mentioning AA's alleged meeting with Ernest in Russia. Understanding that this was something that should be kept quiet, Frau Rathlef did not mention it publicly.
From Königsberger Allgemeine Zeitung, No. 110, March 7, 1927:

"How far her statements are influenced by published information and the outside world is shown by the grotesque example that one day she declared that the last time she had seen her Uncle Ernest, the Grand Duke of Hesse, was in St. Petersburg during the Great War. It is known that the Grand Duke was fighting on the Western Front, and there was never any talk in Germany of a visit to Russia; for how could that have been possible? But the Entente Press had published this canard, and, unfortunately, it had fallen among Mrs. Chaikovski's documents"

Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann replied:

"The main argument of the Darmstadt people remains, viz. the visit of the Grand Duke to Russia during the war. This visit is alleged not to have taken place. It is not stated in the Darmstadt explanation, however, that the Grand Duke had not been in St. Petersburg. It is further observed in this connection that, in my manuscript, no mention is made of the Grand Duke's visit to Russia. A statement of Mrs. Chaikovski regarding the visit of the Grand Duke to the Russian Royal Family during the war in the winter of 1917-18 has been corroborated from other sources in Darmstadt. The purpose of the visit was to induce the Tsar to conclude a separeate peace, and to prevail upon the Imperial Family to fly to England, as it seemed clear that the Russian Revolution was imminent. From Darmstadt, I was informed that the whole affair had created a painful impression. In consideraton of this, I abandoned all thought of publication. Mrs. Chaikovsky is supposed to have known of this visit from reports in the Entente Press. Unfortunately, however, the Darmstadt explanation does not give us the name and date of the Entente journal in which this rumour appeared. If a thing is denied, surely material in support of the denial should be quoted."

So, as you can see, it was Darmstadt and the press who leaked this to the world, not AA's supporters. Of course, after the story leaked, several witnesses came forward and testified in AA's favor.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by Cumberland

There is NO solid proof to indicate that Ernest did or did not make the trip to Russia in 1916

Even if he did, this doesn't prove AA had any inside information since the book

B. Himmelstjerna, Im Angesicht der Revolution, 1922, publisher Steeler

existed in Germany 3 years before she made her accusation. The rumor had been going around, and it wouldn't be hard for AA or her supporters to hear about it and use it as part of their story.

Where does this quote from Irene come from? Because mine comes from Massie's book.

Here is the entire quote, it's her official statement on the matter. I believe this was presented to the court during the trial. I found it originally on the E.P. Winjats research site:

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...nk&cd=17&gl=us

The more complete version was sent to me by a friend, an English translation from Pierre Gilliard's "Le Fausse Anastasie"

"I saw immediately that she could not be one of my nieces. Even though I had not seen them for nine years, the fundamental facial characteristics could not have altered to that degree, in particular the position of the eyes, the ear, etc. .. At first sight one could perhaps detect a resemblance to Grand Duchess Tatiana.

At first I remained with the unknown one in the company of Miss of Oertzen, then alone, but I was not able to notice in her any signs which led me to believe that she recognized me. I had lived in 1912 and 1913 entire weeks with my nieces and since that time I have changed little. At the table, we sat straight across from each one other; then, she got up and left, without saying a word, and went to her room. At this time I already had the conviction that she was not my niece, but, at the desire of the Dr Grunberg, I went up to her room, and approached her bed. I addressed her in vain with words in the language that we habitually used, recalled situations from the past, spoke the nicknames or the names of persons we knew: she did not react to anything. She still did not reply when I prayed for her to say a word or to make a sign that she had recognized me; even when -in order to not neglect anything - I said to her: "Do you not know your Aunt Irene?"

To the Grunbergs big disappointment, who were so well intentioned, I left with the firm conviction that this unknown one is not my niece; I no longer kept the least doubt in this respect. We had lived, formerly, in such intimacy, that it would have sufficed for a small sign or an unconscious movement to awaken in me a familial feeling to convince me."

Signed: Irene, Princess Henri Of Prussia.

[Marengo]

I was wondering why in the discussion the focus is usually on the Grand Duke of Hesse, and that he might have had a reason why he denied that Anna Anderson was Anastasia, but AFAIK most relatives spoke against it. In 1928 12 family members signed a petition about the matter, denying that Anna Anderson was the Grand Duchess. They were: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna, her six sons, and her daughter, Princess Irina Youssoupova, Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich, his sister Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna the younger, the Grand Duke of Hesse and his sisters Princess Irene of Prussia and Victoria, Dowager Marchioness of Milford-Haven. Apart from them Lord Mountbatten, Dmitri of Leuchtenberg, Prince Christoffer of Greece & Denmark, Prince Felix Youssoupov, Mathilde Kschessinska etc. etc. did not believe her story.

Apart from those relatives, it was Gertrude Schankowska, sister of Franziska who was convinced that she was Franziska and not Anastasia, as well as Felix Schankowski, father of Franziska and Gertrude identified her as Franziska S. Her brother Felix exclaimed that she was Franziska immidiately when he saw her but after a private conversation he changed his mind.

-
Now which relatives did believe Anna Anderson? Princess Xenia Georgievna (Mrs. Leeds) - with the argument that she knew the difference between a Romanov and a Polish peasant woman; not because she recognised her -, the Duke of Saxe Altenburg (very distant relative who probably never saw her) and Grand Duke Andrei (who later withdrew his support).

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

So far I have not been able to find out who inititated the search for left-overs of Anna Anderson, who was financing the tests, who organized the transport of the parts to the labs, who selected the labs in the first place, who found the reference DNA from the Romanovs and the Schanzkowskis: who did all that?

Here is a timeline that lays out the whole ordeal.

RomanovsRussia :: Login

It ended up in court. The RNA got involved and it was just a big mess. Massie wrote about it in The Romanovs: The Final Chapter, if you can get your hands on that. But trust me, it was not just a simple matter of getting the samples, transferring them to the lab and testing them. The whole affair landed in court.
Chat or Bear may be able to recall more of the details, I have defective gray matter.

[Anna was Franziska]

So I would be very thankful if somebody could enlighten me to the answers of my questions: who initiated and financed the DNA-testings and how did they come about?

One more time for anyone who missed it- the intestine sample was hunted down by Marina and Richard Schweitzer, daughter and son in law of Gleb Botkin, and like Gleb big AA supporters. They instigated the tests and funded them. You can read the entire story of it all in detail in Robert K Massie's "The Romanovs: The Final Chapter." It's a very popular and easy to find book, in almost every bookstore and library.

[lexi4]

That's not quite they way it was. Others had searched for the sample as well. Read Massey. I believe he explains it well. The hair sample did not belong to Kurth. It belonged to another woman who gave it to Peter and he in turn turned it over for testing.
Actually, the first person to try to obtain a tissues sample was Syd Mandelaum in 1992 for a book he was writing. Massie writes of this. Then Mary DeWitt asked for a sample for a paper she was working on. She was a student in a student of forensic pathology of the University of Texas. The hospital told her they didn't have anything for her, but she didn't give up.

[ChatNoir]

I think if you go to AGRBears site, Romanovsrussia, you will find the whole timetable of the people who instigated the search for the intestine sample.
Here is a short version: The first person on the track, was Sydney Mandelbaum, wanting to use the result of the testing for a book he was writing. He asked for a sample stored under either Anna Anderson or Mrs. Jack Manahan. The hospital found no records under either name. About a month later, Mary deWitt asked for the sample in order to use it in scientific research to identify AA. A short time after Willi Korte from Munich called on behalf of the Forensic Pathology Institute there to have access to the sample. Penny Jenkins at the hospital finally found the sample under Anastasia Manahan. Then Mary deWitt called James Blair Lovell, who got permission from the Manahan cousins to release the sample. He then realized that he needed legal help to obtain the release, and called Richard Schweitzer, who later paid for all the legal costs and the DNA analysis. And all the squabble in between you have to read about yourself, it is much too much to go into here.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Marengo

I was wondering why in the discussion the focus is usually on the Grand Duke of Hesse, and that he might have had a reason why he denied that Anna Anderson was Anastasia, but AFAIK most relatives spoke against it. In 1928 12 family members signed a petition about the matter, denying that Anna Anderson was the Grand Duchess. They were: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna, her six sons, and her daughter, Princess Irina Youssoupova, Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich, his sister Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna the younger, the Grand Duke of Hesse and his sisters Princess Irene of Prussia and Victoria, Dowager Marchioness of Milford-Haven.

And how many of these had actually met AA? Only Grand Duchess Olga. And several of the Romanovs refused to sign the "Copenhagen Statement", prepared in Darmstadt!

Apart from them Lord Mountbatten, Dmitri of Leuchtenberg, Prince Christoffer of Greece & Denmark, Prince Felix Youssoupov, Mathilde Kschessinska etc. etc. did not believe her story

Prince Christopher was the one who said: "Of course, Olga knows better than anybody that she is Anastasia." He was the one who came back from America and asked the family to take a closer look. Apparently, he was voted down. Felix Youssupov was willing to change his opinion for a bit of the alleged fortune (Botkin's book), and Mathilde Kchessinska truly believed that AA was AN, because "looking into her eyes was like looking into "his". (The Tsar.) And she should know.

Apart from those relatives, it was Gertrude Schankowska, sister of Franziska who was convinced that she was Franziska and not Anastasia, as well as Felix Schankowski, father of Franziska and Gertrude identified her as Franziska S. Her brother Felix exclaimed that she was Franziska immidiately when he saw her but after a private conversation he changed his mind.

Gertrude was not convinced enough to sign an affidavit
to the fact that AA was FS. When she went back into the room for a second look, she shook AA, saying "You are my sister, admit it." AA protested, and Gertrude said, surprised: "But that is not Franziska's voice."
Felix had not seen his sister for more than 7 years, and identified AA as such at the first glance. She walked up to him and said: Are you the one who think you can identify me as your sister? Because of Felix's low German, AA understood very little of what he said. But she behaved beautifully, walked, stood, took her hat off and put it back on, she completely "took Felix to the bank". He never adressed her as Franziska and never used the informal "Du" as one would towards a sister. Later, he said:"It was completely clear to me that she had no idea who I was." Dmitri Leuchtenberg was very much "against" AA, and has made some statements about her that are not in accordance with the truth. Therefore, his version of the meeting cannot be trusted. Read the report of Mr. Shuhricht.

-

Now which relatives did believe Anna Anderson? Princess Xenia Georgievna (Mrs. Leeds) - with the argument that she knew the difference between a Romanov and a Polish peasant woman; not because she recognised her -, the Duke of Saxe Altenburg (very distant relative who probably never saw her) and Grand Duke Andrei (who later withdrew his support).

Xenia said that AA had reminded her of things they did as children, where they had played, what they had played etc, and she never wavered in her conviction. Friedrich of Saxe Altenburg also played with AN as a child. When did Grand Duke Andrew withdraw his support?