Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Charlottesville]

It's also important to note this 'leading group of forensic experts' who think Anastasia was in the grave also originally identified the pelvis of Anna Demidova as belonging to Nicholas II.

http://www.peterkurth.com/RUSSIAN%20FORENSICS%20TEAM.htm

 

[Ritka]

I believe those were the men who found the bones. The specialists were separate people.

 

[Charlottesville]

I believe those were the men who found the bones. The specialists were separate people.

No. I just read in "The Fate of the Romanovs" and it refers specifically to Abramov and his team. I'll find the page number later and post it.


Anyways, I found this on Kingandwilson.com posted by AGRbear. The chain of custody for the AA tissue would never be acceptable in any court.

"Timeline
Let's explore the timeline between the surgery of AA in Aug of 1979 to the delivery of the intestine sample to Dr. Gill on 29 June 1994.

20 Aug 1979 - AA was rushed to Martha Jefferson Hospital where Dr. Richard Shrum operated on her small intestine obstruction which prove to have turned gangrene. Massie tells us the details on p. 194-5 THE ROMANOVS, THE FINAL CHAPTER:

>>The procedure of sending the tissue to the pathology lab was sent 5 inches of intestines. This tissue was divided into five one-inch segments which were bathed in a issue preservative called formalin, sealed inside a block of paraffin wax one inch square and half an inch deep, and placed in a small blue and white box on a shelf filled with other similar boxes containing tissue specimens.<<

12 Feb 1984 - Anna Anderson Manahan died. Her body was cremated the same day.

July 1992 - Dr. William Maples stated that he believed Anastasia was the missing Grand Duchess and not Maria whom the Russians claimed was missing

22 Sept 1992 Syd Mandelaum writes to several major laboratories looking for genetic samples of AA's to test at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory or at Harvard Medical School because he was writing a book on DNA and wanted to add it's usage to forenic in regards to AA. The one letter went to Martha Jefferson Hospital where AA had surgery.

p. 195 Massie tells us the answer Mandelaum receive to his inquiry:

>>...Martha Jefferson Hospital, replied to Mandelbaun that "we have nothing here that could be useful to you."

 

[Charlottesville]

Klier and Mingay give us more information on this request p. 203
>>...At the time the hospital was in a chaotic administrative state due to a major refurbishment, and although officals conducted a cursory search of their files, they did not find any recoreds under either of those names. Hospital officals claim they did not intentionally mislead Mandelbaum. Indeen there was no tissue sample stored in the hospital under either name proposed by Mandelbaum.<< The names he had given were Anna Anderson or Mrs. Jack Manahan.

22 Nov 1992 Mary DeWitt, p. 196, >>a student of forensic pathology of the University of Texas<< asked the hospiital for some tissue because she'd like to stuy it for a paper. They reply from Penny Jenkins was: >>"No, I can't help you."<< Mary DeWitt did not give up. She contacted Lovell asking for his help. Lovel received a letter from John Manahan's cousin Fred Lowvel who granted Lovel authority to dispose of the tissue.

Dec 1992, two days after Mary DeWitt's first letter - Dr. Willi Korte conatacted Jenkins. Her story was different to Korte. She told him that they did have compartitive samples of AA.
p. 206 of Kleir and Mingay:
>>Korte's...phone calls galvanized the hospital's acting director of medical records, Penny Jenkins, to take a more detailed look at the hospital's patient database. She made a through search of the viles and the pathology departemtn's vaults and found that, indeed, a tissue sample from Anderson was held there, albeit under the name of Anatasia Manahan.<< This was found Dec 1992one month after his first phone call.

Dec. 1992 - Thomas Kline with the law firm Andrews and Kurth contacted Jenkins. Jenkins told him they had samples.

Sping 1993 Mary DeWitt's lawyer contacted Martha Jefferson Hospital, again....

The agreement between DeWitt and Lovel disintergrated and Lovel refused to be part of DeWitt's research. Evidently DeWitt's husband was an investigator but there is no mention if he had been hired by anyone or if he was acting on his own or if she was just doing this on her own.

Jan 1993 - Thomas Kline contacted Fred Manahan who referred him to Lovel.

16 April 1993- Kline wrote to Lovell formally asking for help in obtaining access to AA's tissue for DNA testing to be done by the Forensic Insitute in Munich.

18 March 1993 -Kline wrote Lovel again and explained what he thought of Korte and suggested Dr. Mary-Claire King [UC Berkeley] if he did not wish to use Munich with whom Dr. Gill was a part.

date? Lovel contacted Richard Schweitzer for advice.

Meanwhile, Penny Jenkins who had been contacted by these people and attorneys, started to ask the hospital attorneys what needed to done. The hospital attorneys dealt with Richard Schwitzer who is a lawyer and use to post here on this forum.

May to Sept 1993 -
(1) Agreement was made to use a litigator Matthey Murray.
(2) Richard Schweitzer approached Dr. Gill after he was told the Armed Forces Institue of Pathology in Maryland could not agree to the terms of the test of the DNA. And filed his wife's petition 30 Sept 1993 because of who she was and her contact with AA and being a citizen of Virgina which was required

1 Nov 1993 Circuit Court Judge Jay T. Swett dealt with this case


I will continue with this timeline as I have time.

So, what timeline do we have so far with just the discovery of the sample to the first court appearance: 20 Aug 1992 to 1 Nov. 1993 which is more than a year.

So, what timeline do we have so far with just the discovery of the sample to the first court appearance: 20 Aug 1992 to 1 Nov. 1993 which is more than a year.

p. 202 of Massie's THE ROMANOVS, THE FINAL CHAPTER:

1 Nov 1993 Circuit Court Judge Jay T. Swett dealt with this case
The following people became involved during this time:
(1) Richard Schweitzer wo was representing is wife's petition
(2) Matthew Murray, the attorney for Martha Jefferson Hospital
(3) attorney (not named) from the Richmond Times
(4) Lindsey Crawford from the law firm of Andrews and Kurth under the New York Corp. known as the Russian Nobility Association

Since Crawford had not filed a peition the judge, after hearing why Crawford had not, gave her three days to file.

4 Nov 1993- Crawford filed her petition
One can read in more detail a version of Crawford's claim on p. 205. The highlights were:
a) Marina Schweitzer's petition was not valid because she was not related to Anastasia Anderson
b) using the tissue sample to discover the true identity of Anastasia Manahan would be usedful and cannot be achieved in the manner requested by Schweitzer. p. 205 a quote: >>...the Russian Nobility Association heaped further calumny on Dr. Gill: his laboratory was said to represent "second-best scientific testing", and his samples were said to have been possibly "contaminated."<< Attached to these remarks about the possibly "contaminated" were affidavits from (1) Prince Alexis Scherbatow and (2) Dr. William Maples who praised Dr. King at UC Berkeley and her ability to preform DNA test.

The word "contaminated" was drawn into the petition by Crawford and not by Schweitzer who had requested Dr. Gill be the one to test the sample for DNA.

4 Nov 1993- Crawford filed her petition
One can read in more detail a version of Crawford's claim on p. 205. The highlights were:
a) Marina Schweitzer's petition was not valid because she was not related to Anastasia Anderson
b) using the tissue sample to discover the true identity of Anastasia Manahan would be usedful and cannot be achieved in the manner requested by Schweitzer. p. 205 a quote: >>...the Russian Nobility Association heaped further calumny on Dr. Gill: his laboratory was said to represent "second-best scientific testing", and his samples were said to have been possibly "contaminated."<< Attached to these remarks about the possibly "contaminated" were affidavits from (1) Prince Alexis Scherbatow and (2) Dr. William Maples who praised Dr. King at UC Berkeley and her ability to preform DNA test.

10 Nov 1993 - Ellen Kailing-Romanov, a German citizen, petitioned to intervene. She claimed to be the daughter of GD Anastasia

16 Nov 1993 - Richard Schweitzer told the court that he would not oppose tests by Dr. King at Berkeley p. 208 >>...he would only oppose testing exclusively by Dr. King. <<

Out of court the various sides talked.

7 Dec 1993 -
(1) Judge Swett allowed both the Russian Nobility Assoc., and Mrs. Kailing-Romanov to inervene in the suit.


(2) Dr. Mary-Clarie King wrote and notarized an affidavit comtradicting what Dr. Maples had said about Dr. Gill's competence.

Dr. King wrote: p. 210:
>>I have been working for the past seven months on the identification of the skeletal remains of the nine individuals believed to include Tsar Nicholas II and the members of his family," she said, "I have also received blood and tissue samples from descendants of Tsar Nicholas and his wife, Alexandra." <<

date? Dec 1993
Judge Swett told the three parties to p. 213:
>>..meet, confer, and resolve among themselves the questions of how and where the tissue should be tested. If the quantity of tissue was sufficient, he instructed that parallel tests be done by Dr. Gill and Dr. King.<<

10 Jan 1994
Place of the meeting between parties would take place in Charlottesville office of Page William's, the hospital lawyer's, office. Those present were:
1) Richard Schweitzer who reprsented his wife Marina
2) Page Williams who represented the Martha Jefferson Hosptial
3) Matthew Murray the other attorney who respresented Martha Jeff. Hosp.
4) Dr. Willi Koerte replaced Lindsey Crawford and represented the RNA

21 Jan 1994 - Ulrich von Gienanth whom AA had named as one of her four executors signed a "declaration" that he accepted the role of executor of AA. If his status was accpeted by the court, his power of executor would supersede Scheitzer nd all others. p. 217

One year and five months later, Dr. Gill and Dr. King have not received the samples of intestines.

22 Jan 1994- Another court appearance occured. Present were Richard Schweizer, Matthew Murray, Linsey Crawford and Page Williams. Judge Swett asked if all parties were in an agreement.

"No."

Case was dismissed due to the entry of von Gienanth as executor of AA's estate which included her sample of intestines.

Swett said a new lawsuite could be tissued.

Legal manuvers were made. Judge Swett had to review, clarify, modify his nonsuit order. A law was found which stated that von Gienanth would have to appear in person... The old man was too old and couldn't fly and was eliminated.... from the case.

5 March 1994- New hearing and Judge Swett ruling rejected Andrew & Kurths and said that if Marina Schweitzer wanted to terminate this case she had a right to do so. Also Mary Claire-King's affidavit (written 7 Dec 1993) was entered into the case. If Andrews and Kurth wish to continue they needed to gain and injunction and must so file.

 

[Charlottesville]

5 March 1994- New hearing and Judge Swett ruling rejected Andrew & Kurths and said that if Marina Schweitzer wanted to terminate this case she had a right to do so. Also Mary Claire-King's affidavit (written 7 Dec 1993) was entered into the case. If Andrews and Kurth wish to continue they needed to gain and injunction and must so file.

15 March 1994 - Injunction by Andrew and Kurth was filed. Andrews and Kurth wanted a "a parallel testing of the tissue samples at two qualified laboriatories" p. 220.

16 March 1994 - Ed Deets, a friend of Richard Schweitzer, was sworn in as personal representative and administrator of Anastasia Manahan's estate in Virigina.

30 March 1994- Another hearing in Judge Swett's courtroom. Present were Matthew murray, Page Williams, Alexis Scherbatow, Marina and Richard Schweitzer, ed Deets, Penny Jenkins, Julian Nott, Ron Answen, Massie, Dr. Korte and Dr. Adrian Ivinson. This was about the injunction.

11 May 1994 - FInal court hearing took place. Case was dismissed.

19 May 1994 - Swett gave Andrews & Kurth 30 days to file an appeal. No appeal waas filed, Case was over.

19 June 1994 - Peter Gill arrived in Charlottesville to collect a sample of Anastasia Manahan's tissue.

p. 225 Massie tells us the details:
>>Gill had lunch that day with the Schweitzers and then went to the hspital to collect the tissue. He was greeeter there by Ed Deets, Matthew Murray, Penny Jenkins, and Dr. Hunt Macmillian, director of the hospital pathology laboratory. While the layers and nonscientists watche from the back of the room and a documentary filem crew recorded everything that happened, the process got under way. Macmillan, Gill and Betty Eppard, a resgiestered histology technician who actually cut the tissue, appeared ... The five blocks of paraffin containing the embedded tissue...were produced, and the same procedure was repeated five times: Macmillan handed Gill a tissue block and identified it. Gill sterilized it and handed it to Eppard...." <<

And so it went. The tissue was placed in sterilized vials which were tamper proof....

Gill did not take the sample that day.

29 June 1994- Ten days after the slicing of the sample, Peter Gill collected the tissue in Charlottesville.

So, it took from 20 Aug 1992 to 29 June 1994, which was just short of two months of being two years, before Peter Gill was taking the tissue sample to his lab.

 

[Mapple]

I'd like to remind you about the American and British team that determined her remains in fact missing. The body of no. 5 the Russians kept insisting was Anastasia was in fact 5'7. It couldn't be Anastasia. The Russians are not nearly as advanced as the US and UK teams either. They placed their assertion that AN was in the grave on photo comparisons with only a few photos which is controversial in itself, this with a skull which had to be placed together. The US/UK teams determined by roots in the teeth, vertebrae, etc.- things which are MUCH more reliable than those photo comparisons- that the bodies are ALL too old to be that of a girl who JUST turned 17. Are we to forget Anastasia was smaller than most girls her age? Anastasia is not in that grave. The Russians had an agenda. They didn't want the rumors of Anastasia's escape to be true.

I understand your point of view, but I would like to clarify some details.

Firstly, what agenda did the Russian government have? However callous it may sound, o one here cares who exactly was found in the Koptyaki forest -- actually, most of Russian will name Anastasia as missing if asked. It evident, though, that there are persons whose agenda is to defend the version of escaped Anastasia...

Secondly, your dismissal of the Russian experts strikes me as hollow, as I happen to know several of them, and they are learned people of integrity. Of course, they were somewhat underfunded (and were telling that openly), but it is a bad scientist who doesn't ask for more financing when facing the work of importance... I know that well. Their expertise in the field of forencics, unfortunately, is unrivalled when you talk about old burials -- the Russian scientists had to explore mass graves of the 1930s.

Thirdly, Gerasimov's method of comparing photographs is quite reliable. The problem with determining age of the persons buried for so long are understandable, as is the minority report by Maples's team -- it is science, not a Communist Party Congress, after all!

Fourthly, I am not aware of any report mentioning the height of # 6 as 171 cm. I am not able to confirm or deny this.

Fifthly, let us suppose that the Russian experts made a mistake, and Maples is right. # 6 is n one else but Maria Nikolayevna... where was Anastasia Nikolayevna then?

The sad answer is: the sisters were not far apart. There were found four lower jaws belonging to young girls of high standing and resembling one another...

 

[Mapple]

I believe those were the men who found the bones. The specialists were separate people.

Quite so; there were no connection between the groups of Ryabov and Plaksin.

 

[Charlottesville]

It is completely obvious that Abramov, Ryabov, and others wanted to put an end to the Western legends. I know it's ridiculous, but it's plainly obvious. I really don't have a problem with the Russian experts at all, but they refused to accept the opinion of western experts, and really thought a photo comparison of a few photos with a skull which was placed together was more accurate than the examination of bone structure.
The photo comparison is not completely reliable when you consider this skull had nothing below the brow and had to be placed together. And even if not, it's still a controversial method.
But we disagree, and that is fine.
Where is Anastasia? To me, it is obvious.
Her ashes are scattered at Castle Seeon.

 

[Charlottesville]

Quite so; there were no connection between the groups of Ryabov and Plaksin.

No, it was Abramov and his team who mistook the pelvis as that of Nicholas.

 

[Charlottesville]

"There were false Alexeys, too. For example, a Heino Tamet from Vancouver."

The results of the DNA tests on HT were never made public. So I must wonder how you can assume he is an imposter when you seem to credit others.
You also write than Anna Anderson was Franziska Schanzkowksa. The 1994 DNA tests are very complicated because the chain of custody for the sample was HORRIBLE. We can't say for a fact Anna Anderson was a fraud. The evidence clearly shows she was not. Many who were close to Anastasia, Empress Alexandra's best friend Lili Dehn and Alexandra Tegleva (Anastasia's nanny) identified Anna as Anastasia. I don't think it is fair to now because of some tests which were done on alleged samples to conclude AA was a fraud.

 

[Mapple]

It is completely obvious that Abramov, Ryabov, and others wanted to put an end to the Western legends. I know it's ridiculous, but it's plainly obvious. I really don't have a problem with the Russian experts at all, but they refused to accept the opinion of western experts, and really thought a photo comparison of a few photos with a skull which was placed together was more accurate than the examination of bone structure.

Welcome to the world of science, where nothing is 100% certain. I must admit that I myself want to bang my head against a wall when, as a professional, I stumble upon several articles with contradicting results. It can be quite irritating... but it is a common occurrence.

The photo comparison is not completely reliable when you consider this skull had nothing below the brow and had to be placed together. And even if not, it's still a controversial method.
But we disagree, and that is fine.
Where is Anastasia? To me, it is obvious.
Her ashes are scattered at Castle Seeon.

The photo comparison certainly isn't completely reliable, as well as any other scientific method. No one is 100% sure that it was Anastasia, and the experts shied away from dealing in un-scientific absolutes.

Well... our only disagreement is upon the name of the place where her ashes are scattered. To me, it is Sverdlovskaya Oblast.

 

[Charlottesville]

Where is Sverdlovskaya Oblast at? Is there a claimant there?

BTW.. What do you think of Anna Anderson and about those who identified her as being AN, her memories, the handwriting, etc. In my opinion there are too many coincidences between 'two' people to be just a coincidence. She knew things NO ONE on the outside could have possibly known.


I guess the reason I came off as I did was because of the way people on this forum talk as if it has been proven beyond all doubt Marie is missing. Here's one I found on the LR part 1 thread.

"As Anastasia's body was one of those found, and identified by DNA, the chances that Anna Anderson's DNA tests and those tests were wrong must not be very big.

I remember that King Olav of Norway commented on the case in a book he was interviewed for in 1977. (He was related to the Romanovs by way of Anastasia's grandmother, who was his great aunt, and thus was Anastasia's second cousin) He said that there were few people in the family who believed Anna Anderson's claims."

Is this person aware Anastasia and Marie would have the same mtDNA?

And is he aware the only Romanov to actually see Anna Anderson was Olga Alexandrovna? All the others simply persecuted her without seeing her, which makes me think they had something to hide.

 

[Mapple]

No, it was Abramov and his team who mistook the pelvis as that of Nicholas.

It is an explicable mistake that is quite common, though -- to misidentify the sex of a pelvis if arcus pubis's angleis unusual... or an arc damaged, which undoubtedly was the case, given the case history.

 

[Charlottesville]

It is an explicable mistake that is quite common, though -- to misidentify the sex of a pelvis if arcus pubis's angleis unusual... or an arc damaged, which undoubtedly was the case, given the case history.

Well, I guess it's just that the American team realized it was female at first sight.

The more I read the Romanov thread 1 the more confused I get about some of these posts. It's almost as if people here WANT Marie to be missing, and ignore ALL other evidence. Is there something I'm missing?

 

[Mapple]

Where is Sverdlovskaya Oblast at? Is there a claimant there?

Erm... Americans have states, Britons have counties, Russians have oblasts. Yekaterinburg is its capital, Koptyaki is within its borders. As for the claimants -- they are everywhere... there was a couple of Alexeys IIRC.

BTW.. What do you think of Anna Anderson and about those who identified her as being AN, her memories, the handwriting, etc. In my opinion there are too many coincidences between 'two' people to be just a coincidence. She knew things NO ONE on the outside could have possibly known.

Well, Anastasia was shot along with her family, if we are to believe numerous accounts of eyewitnesses and invesigators. The statements concerning the immolation of two of the Tsar's children and the existence of four very similar jaws have pretty much finalized it for me. Of course, miracles do happen... but this is too much.

I guess the reason I came off as I did was because of the way people on this forum talk as if it has been proven beyond all doubt Marie is missing. Here's one I found on the LR part 1 thread...

I would like to reiterate it again: it is unwarranted not to have doubts. Erare humanum est! Also, it is unwarranted not to doubt that Anna Anderson was Grand Duchess Anastasia, if we are at it, because there is no scientific evidence that upholds her claim... none at all.

As for your correct statement that she knew things NO ONE on the outside could have possibly known -- it implies that someone among the insiders could have known. Possibly she was very well-trained by... my my, I have to stop as I am not into conspiracy theories!

 

[Mapple]

Well, I guess it's just that the American team realized it was female at first sight.

The more I read the Romanov thread 1 the more confused I get about some of these posts. It's almost as if people here WANT Marie to be missing, and ignore ALL other evidence. Is there something I'm missing?

Abramov made a mistake, and it doesn't matter because he was corrected.. BTW, where did you get the data that he was corrected by the Americans? Kurth states only that Maples identified the pelvis in question as male at first sight. And you can obviously identify any given exhumed pelvis as either male of female, it's no great breakthrough.

 

[Mapple]

...
The more I read the Romanov thread 1 the more confused I get about some of these posts. It's almost as if people here WANT Marie to be missing, and ignore ALL other evidence. Is there something I'm missing?

Anastasia-ites want their mystery. Maria-ites want their closure. No conspiracies here, I hope!

 

[Charlottesville]

Erm... Americans have states, Britons have counties, Russians have oblasts. Yekaterinburg is its capital, Koptyaki is within its borders. As for the claimants -- they are everywhere... there was a couple of Alexeys IIRC.


Well, Anastasia was shot along with her family, if we are to believe numerous accounts of eyewitnesses and invesigators. The statements concerning the immolation of two of the Tsar's children and the existence of four very similar jaws have pretty much finalized it for me. Of course, miracles do happen... but this is too much.



I would like to reiterate it again: it is unwarranted not to have doubts. Erare humanum est! Also, it is unwarranted not to doubt that Anna Anderson was Grand Duchess Anastasia, if we are at it, because there is no scientific evidence that upholds her claim... none at all.

As for your correct statement that she knew things NO ONE on the outside could have possibly known -- it implies that someone among the insiders could have known. Possibly she was very well-trained by... my my, I have to stop as I am not into conspiracy theories!

That's cool. I've never heard of the oblast thing.
Anyways, what is it that makes you trust the Russian scientists so much more than the Americans?

And remember, there are also witnesses who say they saw Anastasia in Perm, and all had the same story. So witnesses and executioners can't all be right.

No scientific evidence? What about the handwriting of Anna Anderson which had ALL the concordant signs of Grand Duchess Anastasia?
And the ears, which were identical in 17 anatomical points. 12 is considered proof of identity in German courts.
These tests when performed today still give the same result.
I don't see why Lili Dehn, Tatiana Botkin, Shura and others would want to support a fraud.
And how did she know so many intimate details of IP life? She knew of one event where only Alexandra, Lili Dehn, Anna Vyrobouva, and Anastasia Nicholaevna were present!

The only person who COULD have told her this was Lili Dehn, which is implausible.

I just don't see how Anna Anderson could not have been Anastasia, but I'll admit the DNA leaves a little circle of doubt for me, but the chain of custody really makes me reguard it as inconclusive.

 

[Charlottesville]

Anastasia-ites want their mystery. Maria-ites want their closure. No conspiracies here, I hope!

I guess, but it seems that one should examine evidence and be open to possibilities instead of wanting a mystery. I feel that the Romanovs are shrouded in conspiracy.

 

[Mapple]

That's cool. I've never heard of the oblast thing.

You're welcome... actually, we also have krays, republics, autonomous districts and even one autonomous oblast.

Anyways, what is it that makes you trust the Russian scientists so much more than the Americans?

Prof Plaksin was one of my lecturers me at university.

And remember, there are also witnesses who say they saw Anastasia in Perm, and all had the same story. So witnesses and executioners can't all be right.

As well as there were witnesses who saw Nicholas II, Alexey, etc, etc... There is a saying in Russian, 'To lie like an eyewitness', and it is grounded in reality.

No scientific evidence? What about the handwriting of Anna Anderson which had ALL the concordant signs of Grand Duchess Anastasia?
And the ears, which were identical in 17 anatomical points. 12 is considered proof of identity in German courts.
These tests when performed today still give the same result.

I have my doubts concerning this, but then again, I am not in possession of relevant knowledge to give an expert judgment myself.

I don't see why Lili Dehn, Tatiana Botkin, Shura and others would want to support a fraud.
And how did she know so many intimate details of IP life? She knew of one event where only Alexandra, Lili Dehn, Anna Vyrobouva, and Anastasia Nicholaevna were present!

The only person who COULD have told her this was Lili Dehn, which is implausible.

The people want to believe, and they want miracles to happen... need I say more?
And why, for example, Dehn telling someone who then told to AA is so implausible?

I just don't see how Anna Anderson could not have been Anastasia, but I'll admit the DNA leaves a little circle of doubt for me, but the chain of custody really makes me reguard it as inconclusive.

She couldn't have been Anastasia very easily. I would like to remind you about the existence of four lower jaws belonging to four young girls of high standing who happened to be relatives relatives, which were found in the vicinity of Sverdlovsk.

 

[Mapple]

I guess, but it seems that one should examine evidence and be open to possibilities instead of wanting a mystery. I feel that the Romanovs are shrouded in conspiracy.

Cui bono? Who on Earth needs this conpiracy, and for what nefarious purposes?

 

[Charlottesville]

She couldn't have been Anastasia very easily. I would like to remind you about the existence of four lower jaws belonging to four young girls of high standing who happened to be relatives relatives, which were found in the vicinity of Sverdlovsk.

I disagree, but that's okay. Lili Dehn herself not only said only those four knew about the incident, but she recognized Anna Anderson and Anastasia physically and intuitively. Anna Anderson recieved recognition by those who were closest to the 'real' Anastasia, and knew things that weren't very well-known. They were secret. It's my opinion that all the evidence is in Anna Anderson's favor. I just don't think her claim should be dismissed on the basis of a dispute between skeletal remains and a DNA test in which the chain of custody is unacceptable.

The case of the Romanovs is complicated because they are so many 'witnesses' who say different things, so in the end we don't know what to believe.

 

[Charlottesville]

Cui bono? Who on Earth needs this conpiracy, and for what nefarious purposes?

I don't know, but each side says something different, so it seems that one side has to be lieing.


I believe Anastasia Nicholaevna survived the execution and became Anna Anderson, but I have no problem changing my belief if I see hard evidence to contradict it, which I don't. I'm just glad we can have our opinions here without being ridiculed. I respect your opinion very much, even if it differs from my own.

 

[linda85]

Fascinating conversations about the theories of Anastasia and Anna Anderson. Thanks for making me think and presenting some relevant points about the whole Romanov debate.
Linda 85

 

[Charlottesville]

I love the subject. It's interesting because none of us will ever know 100% what the truth is.

I think it would have been best that Anastasia (or Marie) and Alexei died that night with the rest of their family. No one should have to live with that sort of trauma. But then there's the part of me that has studied the life of Anna Anderson, and it so hard to think she was lieing. The sadness and loneliness she felt would be exactly what I picture a real survivor to have felt. This isn't the trauma of someone who had merely dropped a hand grenade in a factory as history's verdict would like us to believe.

 

[Mapple]

I don't know, but each side says something different, so it seems that one side has to be lieing.


I believe Anastasia Nicholaevna survived the execution and became Anna Anderson, but I have no problem changing my belief if I see hard evidence to contradict it, which I don't. I'm just glad we can have our opinions here without being ridiculed. I respect your opinion very much, even if it differs from my own.

Believe me, so do I! I just cannot imagine the nature of conspiracy that supposedly has linked together the Soviet secret services, several the European royal houses and even an American hospital for the past 80+ years. There is no compelling reason for its existence, no matter how we slice it.

My opinion is that everyone is entitled to doubts -- it is an important part of what makes us human. But everyone, when in doubt, ought to remember that he or she possesses the most potent weapon known to the humankind -- Occam's razor, that is.

 

[Charlottesville]

Well, it dosen't necessarily have to be all those people together at all. I mean, you've got remember the American hospital TWICE denied having any remains from Anna Anderson. And then suddenly, it appears. How do we know for a fact it was REALLY from her after it had twice been denied?

 

[Mapple]

Unfortunately it have to be all those people... and even some more.
Mistakes happen, especially in hospitals. I know that...

 

[Charlottesville]

Why would it have to be all those people? Russia wouldn't have to be involved in replacing the tissue at all.

 

[Mapple]

Why would it have to be all those people? Russia wouldn't have to be involved in replacing the tissue at all.

So the conspiracy has to be so multifaceted that its different partners act on their own accord, simultaneously managing to keep everything secret for 80+ years?