Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Menarue]

But Anna Anderson couldn´t speak French or Russian! That is my number one problem with her sorry the DNA tests of the bones is number one, the languages is definitely second to those.
Can anyone tell me the answer to Jo´s question? What language was Anna Anderson speaking when she first appeared?

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Menarue

Jo we are agreed.
There is one thing that perhaps you are overlooking. I agree with your mother about a servant learning how to behave etc etc although there is a saying here in Portugal that says more or less "As many miladies as on a maid´s day off". They pick up (or let us say they did as these things are back in the past) mannerisms from their employers.
There have been many people in the past who have passed themselves off as aristocrats (and some still do) but they are definitely not.
In my opinion Franzisca couldn´t be Anna Anderson and also IMHO Anna Anderson in no way can be the Grand Duchess Anastasia.

Yes, but then Franziska wasn't a ladies' maid or else employed in a upper-class household. She grew up in the countryside and came to wartime Berlin where the society was still organised as part of the empire. Then she experienced the social upheavals of the post-war years where the old structures crashed and worked in a factory and as a field worker picking asparagus. I don't see where she could have gotten any knowledge about life at court from, especially as most books were either not yet written/published or not available for common folk. My father after WWII helped organise the public library system in West-Germany and so I learned a lot about the way archives, publishing and libraries worked pre WWII and I personally simply can't imagine where Franziska or anyone else could have gotten the information from that Anna Anderson obviously had.

I mean, okay if there had been the forming of two parties - one pro-Anna, the other anti-Anna within the family with clear opponents and aims, then I could imagine there was somebody from inside behind it but so far it was part of the family against her and another part who were either indifferent or trying to do the right thing by her. There was eg no uncle who claimed her as his ward and tried to marry her off to his son in order to claim the leadership of the house of Romanov.

[Menarue]

I am getting a bit lost as it has been so long since I have read books on this subject..
What happened to Franzisca? I kn ow that Anna Anderson married and her husband took up her colours.
My disbelief in either of these women is mainly based on the bodies of the Imperial family being found and the DNA tests carried out besides the language problems.
People don´t change that much in my opinion. I hadn´t seen a school friend for over 40 years and recognized her immediately and the first thing we did was talk about past experiences, the nicknames we had given teachers and the time I fell off my horse, all those little things that only we could know.

[lexi4]

But not all of the bodies were found with the IF. The bodies of Anastasia (or Marie) and Alexei were missing from the mass grave. That has only fueled speculation that two of the children survived. So there was no DNA to test of Anastasia or her brother.

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Originally Posted by Menarue

But Anna Anderson couldn´t speak French or Russian! That is my number one problem with her sorry the DNA tests of the bones is number one, the languages is definitely second to those.
Can anyone tell me the answer to Jo´s question? What language was Anna Anderson speaking when she first appeared?

That language was GERMAN. People who had known the Romanovs who met her and denied her said it was strange that she would speak German and not Russian, English or French which the real Anastasia had known well, while German was studied very little by the real Anastasia and would have been the language of the four she knew by far the least. The stories of what she spoke and when are all based on hearsay. People who denied her said she didn't know the other languages until later taught, people who supported her said she did know them and those who denied her were lying. Who is right? The clincher for me is that Anderson never proved to publically or in court she could speak, read and write Russian or French. Her English up until the last of her days was rudimentary at best and heavily accented not at all the English of a girl raised in a family speaking English every day. Because there is no proof only the word of mouth of a few supporters I am inclined not to believe Anderson knew Russian or French as Anastasia would have.

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna

That language was GERMAN. People who had known the Romanovs who met her and denied her said it was strange that she would speak German and not Russian, English or French which the real Anastasia had known well, while German was studied very little by the real Anastasia and would have been the language of the four she knew by far the least. The stories of what she spoke and when are all based on hearsay. People who denied her said she didn't know the other languages until later taught, people who supported her said she did know them and those who denied her were lying. Who is right? The clincher for me is that Anderson never proved to publically or in court she could speak, read and write Russian or French. Her English up until the last of her days was rudimentary at best and heavily accented not at all the English of a girl raised in a family speaking English every day. Because there is no proof only the word of mouth of a few supporters I am inclined not to believe Anderson knew Russian or French as Anastasia would have.

I have a question and I don't know the answer, but I'm sure someone does. Why wouldn't Anastasia have spoken German? Her mother was German, her grandmother was German. It would seem she would also know the language?

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Originally Posted by Menarue

I am getting a bit lost as it has been so long since I have read books on this subject..
What happened to Franzisca?

Franziska was Anna Anderson, they are the same person. The DNA proved this with a 99.9% match. There are some people who still say it is false and the intestine samples were switched but this is only a strange theory with no factual basis. I have asked several times for any reasons why people believe there is a conspiracy and what are the reasons and evidence for this other than the fact they do not want to give up this mystery but I have recieved no answers as of yet. They only say there is something crooked going on and they want to keep checking for facts but the facts have been given and I am sorry they do not like or accept them.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Originally Posted by lexi4

I have a question and I don't know the answer, but I'm sure someone does. Why wouldn't Anastasia have spoken German? Her mother was German, her grandmother was German. It would seem she would also know the language?

No, because Alix was born in Germany. But, raised in England by Queen Victoria. Alix spoke English with a proper British accent. OTMA only talked to Alix in English. Haven't you seen the photos of Alix with Queen Alexandra and Kind Edward? Nicholas they spoke Russian. None of them knew German, because their German relatives like Kaiser Welhelm already knew English.

[lexi4]

When the Berlin police questioned her on Yuesday, Feb. 17, 1920, she responded to them in German with a foreign accent. According to the Bonhoffer report, she spoke with a southern German accent, possibly Franconian in origin.

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Originally Posted by lexi4

I have a question and I don't know the answer, but I'm sure someone does. Why wouldn't Anastasia have spoken German? Her mother was German, her grandmother was German. It would seem she would also know the language?

Because her Grandmother was English (Princess Alice of England) and her mother Alexandra along with her siblings were raised speaking English with English nannies and it remained their main language of communication both in speaking and writing all of their lives though they also knew German. After the death of their mother in 1878 the children spent a great deal of time in England with their Grandmother Queen Victoria and became rather Victorian English in manner and taste. Nicholas and Alexandra communicated to each other mainly in English. So it was English the Romanov children were most exposed to other than Russian. The royal children are well known to have been bilingual in English and Russian and also studied French for many years so it was another language they knew well. German was studied only very little later on and it was according to those who knew them never used by the family.

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna

Franziska was Anna Anderson, they are the same person. The DNA proved this with a 99.9% match. There are some people who still say it is false and the intestine samples were switched but this is only a strange theory with no factual basis. I have asked several times for any reasons why people believe there is a conspiracy and what are the reasons and evidence for this other than the fact they do not want to give up this mystery but I have recieved no answers as of yet. They only say there is something crooked going on and they want to keep checking for facts but the facts have been given and I am sorry they do not like or accept them.

Could you please give examples of people saying the intestines samples were switched? I have never read anything serious to suggest this, even by those who believe Anna was AN.
Also, the DNA proved that Anna was a relative of Karl Maucher, it did not prove that she was FS.
I have read that the chain of custody on the tissue samples would prevent the DNA tests to be admitted as evidence in a court of law, but never that they were switched.

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna

Because her Grandmother was English (Princess Alice of England) and her mother Alexandra along with her siblings were raised speaking English with English nannies and it remained their main language of communication both in speaking and writing all of their lives though they also knew German. After the death of their mother in 1878 the children spent a great deal of time in England with their Grandmother Queen Victoria and became rather Victorian English in manner and taste. Nicholas and Alexandra communicated to each other mainly in English. So it was English the Romanov children were most exposed to other than Russian. The royal children are well known to have been bilingual in English and Russian and also studied French for many years so it was another language they knew well. German was studied only very little later on and it was according to those who knew them never used by the family.

From Alexandra's diary:
... "today I helped Tatiana with a German lesson."

[AnastasiaEvidence]

When the Berlin police questioned her on Yuesday, Feb. 17, 1920, she responded to them in German with a foreign accent. According to the Bonhoffer report, she spoke with a southern German accent, possibly Franconian in origin.

She did speak in German. She's been in Germany for a couple of years. But, her nationality was Polish. She was born in Poland as FS.She's from Pamerania.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

From Alexandra's diary:
... "today I helped Tatiana with a German lesson."

Well, as I said before while they were in Ekateringburg Alix did teach Olga and Tatiana only German. It was VERY little, though. Maria, Anastasia and Alexei never learned German. They studied bible lessons. I've also read Alix's dairy from exile.

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

She did speak in German. She's been in Germany for a couple of years. But, her nationality was Polish. She was born in Poland as FS.She's from Pamerania.

I am missing your point. No one is disputing that she spoke German when questioned by the Berlin police.

[Menarue]

To help someone with a German lesson doesn´t mean she could speak German fluently, it could mean that she had a little more German than her sister. I have had German lessons and could help someone with elementary German lessons but getting me to speak fluently would be a problem with a capital "P".
The Grand duchesses would speak English with their parents, French with members of the Court and Russian with the servants. I am sure they had lessons in other languages too from tutors. I have read Princess Marie Louise´s autobiography where she mentions the Empress, who was her cousin, and she was considered by the family to be an English Princess because of her mother.

[ChatNoir]

A little clarification of AA's languages:
When she was rescued on February 17th, 1920, she would speak a "hopelessly muddled German with a typical Russian accent". The Berlin police nick-named her "Die unbekannte Russin". (The unknown Russian woman.) Later, at Dalldorf, she would speak Russian with some of the nurses there, also noted in the protocols of the asylum. Thea Malinovsky tried to speak to her in Polish, but got no reaction at all. Later, at Inspector Grünberg's house, she apparently spoke more English than German, according to the Inspector's nephew, Conrad Wahl. She would also speak Russian or English in her sleep or while sedated for an operation, but could not remember it when she came to. It was clear that she understood every Russian word said to her, but she would always answer in German. When Gleb Botkin visited in 1927, she would on occasion break out in Russian, but when made aware of it, she denied it and said she had been speaking German the whole time. By the time she got to New York, she spoke English and nothing else. Xenia said her English was good, although her grammar was a little rusty.
In 1938, during a period when she really felt happy and was at ease with herself, she used Russian freely in conversations with Dr. Rudnev and Albert Coyle, an associate of Edward Fallows. When the Nazis started snooping around and demanded another confrontation with the Schanzkowskis, she shut herself in and refused to speak Russian anymore.
Dominique Aucleres stated that she once spoke in French to AA, and the latter answered in French, "with a beautiful accent." When in Paris with Agnes Gallagher, she ordered breakfast from the French waiter, and as Gallagher said: "I don't know if she really spoke French, but we got exactly what we wanted for breakfast."
And in spite of what Anastasia Evidence says: The Grand Duchesses were taught German, but never mastered it. In the diaries of the Tsarina, one can see one day that she "helped Tatiana with a German lesson."

[lexi4]

Thank you Chat.

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by lexi4

I am missing your point. No one is disputing that she spoke German when questioned by the Berlin police.

Sorry, Jo asked what language she spoke when she was discovered and I echoed that question - the answer it seems is German whether it was fluent, heavily accented or grammatically incorrect is unknown but the point is that she used the excuse that she didn´t WANT to speak Russian or French or the languages she was brought up in. To me this excuse is very weak, like an escaped prisoner during a war pretending to be deaf mute because he couldn´t speak the language of the country he was crossing.

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Originally Posted by lexi4

Could you please give examples of people saying the intestines samples were switched? I have never read anything serious to suggest this, even by those who believe Anna was AN.
Also, the DNA proved that Anna was a relative of Karl Maucher, it did not prove that she was FS.
I have read that the chain of custody on the tissue samples would prevent the DNA tests to be admitted as evidence in a court of law, but never that they were switched.

There are people including the poster here Chat Noir who say that there is no proof that the intestines came from Anderson. If they were not hers whose were they and how did they come to be switched? I add to this the people saying that there is a coverup for political reasons and it's not hard to see that people believe that the intestines were not Anderson's and switched for some special purpose to fool people into believing Anderson was not Anastasia. This is the impression I get from the posts of those who question the identity. If this is not what they believe I would like to hear them say why they do not believe that the intestine sample was Anderson's and what their reasons are for believing this. Lexi I am not talking about you but others.