Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Marengo]

Well, if all these grand dukes and princes valued the dynastic rights as much as you think, why wouldn't they have married 'equally' themselves? And what was there to inherit anyway? A throne that doesn't exist anymore and that is about it. Sometimes people pretend (not you btw) that there were millions just waiting for any heir, but AFAIK there wasn't a penny.

[Russophile]

I believe with the war there was a bit of a shortage of titled people. Then you have the money issue. Grand Duke Dmitry didn't do poverty well so he ended up marrying an heiress for his title and hanging around with Coco Chanel and her crew for the freebies. Xenia's husband Sandro didn't do poverty well either hooking up with some rich socialite in Monaco or the French Riviera, I can't remember which.
Then there's the issue of marrying "For Love". . .

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Sometimes people pretend (not you btw) that there were millions just waiting for any heir, but AFAIK there wasn't a penny.

I'm not so sure about that. Okay, maybe not billions but it is a well-recorded fact that Russian Grand Duchesses brought very rich dowries when they married into other European Houses. I doubt these dowries consisted of land in Russia but was more like money, shares in companies etc. - the way money was transfered in the 1800s and early 1900s. As an example: when Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrowna married the second son of queen Victoria in 1974, her father tsar Alexander II. deposited 20 million pounds in a bank in London. At least there are sources claiming that to be true.

Plus the Russian Imperial family liked to travel in style all over Europe - so they needed to have bank accounts outside of Russia to pay for that. Not necessarily filled with fortunes, but some money surely was there.

It is known for example that empress Elisabeth of Austria amassed a private fortune which she kept in a Swiss bank account in case her husband was froced to abdicate in case of a revolution. Historians found a letter from her to her husband saying that Franz Joseph should think about retiring with her to Switzerland - and she promised they would have a more than comfortable life from her private funds... I personally have no doubt that there were such accounts for some of the Romanovs as well. Russia has always been a difficult country to control so it would have been stupid not to take care in advance.

[Russophile]

There's rumors, Jo, that there's wealth out there. I'm still trying to figure out why the whole cover up and why people don't even want to entertain a motion that Alexis and Anastasia might have survived that horrific night.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Russophile

There's rumors, Jo, that there's wealth out there. I'm still trying to figure out why the whole cover up and why people don't even want to entertain a motion that Alexis and Anastasia might have survived that horrific night.

Of course it is rumour. Swiss bank accounts have that as one of their characteristics, that only those who own them know about them.... But common sense tells me that there is quite a probability that these funds existed. The Romanovs have seen so many revolutions in their neighboring countries: first England, then France, later Austria-Hungary and Germany and Spain, they've seen the changes in Scandinavia and Italy, so they must have realised that it could happen to them as well.

As for Ananstasia: if Anastasia survived - who would have ever been able to prove that Alexei did not survive, married later (on being the emperor he could without the House laws kicking in) and left an heir. Imagine what this would mean for the claim of the other Romanovs? No, if they wanted to keep their own claims, then all of the children had to be dead and stay dead.

[Cumberland]

Originally Posted by Russophile

I believe with the war there was a bit of a shortage of titled people. Then you have the money issue. Grand Duke Dmitry didn't do poverty well so he ended up marrying an heiress for his title and hanging around with Coco Chanel and her crew for the freebies. Xenia's husband Sandro didn't do poverty well either hooking up with some rich socialite in Monaco or the French Riviera, I can't remember which.
Then there's the issue of marrying "For Love". . .

If you read the Lost Fortune of The Tsar, and Greg King's excellent book on the last court of Imperial Russia, it seems that there is a confusion as to which money was the private monies of the Romanovs and the state money, obviously N&A considered themselves the state, assuming that any money abroad would be theirs if they went into exile, which may have been their mistake, whatever monies there were in his name Nicholas supposedly repatriated during the war as did AF.

The monies in the Mendehlssohn (sp) bank were the accounts for the four daughters. Which German hyperinflation after WW I took to almost nothing. Unless these Grand Dukes, or Princes had foreign wealth or investments, their money most likely stayed behind with them in Russia. I believe Dimitri sold his palace before going into exile after the Rasputin removal, so he had some small fortune, but I imagine they went through it PDQ. I think that the Yussopov family did have investments outside of Russia, and they lived
quite well for some time.

[fee]

Good points Cumberland, plus something else:
Would a couple that was so blind about what was really going on around them, so oblivious to their subjects real feelings and daily life, so ignorant like Nicholas and Alexandra really have the wisdom to provide for the future? A future in which their beloved Russia had kicked them out? I cannot believe that they could have ever imagined a scenerio like that. I doubt they realized the necessaties for such an act.
There was a lot of rumours that the Bolsheviks might have allowed the daughters to leave with their grandmother and that the family had refused on the grounds that with their father they would be safer, since noone would dare to attack the Czar (a funny idea, since so many of the former Czars had died in assassinations). True or not, it at least shows that the Czars family had no idea in which immediate danger they were, nor had they had any premonition.

[lexi4]

Very good point Fee. I hadn't considered that. I do seem to remember something about Nicholas having investments in the U.S., but believe that was
repatriated during the war.
Nicholas and Alexander could not have possibly imagined that there might come a time when they would have to live in exile. After all, both were adamant in their belief that Nicholas ruled by Divine Right. For either of them to have considered that Nicholas could be overthrown would have been to doubt what they considered the will of God.
Do you think it possible that they did set aside money for their daughters for a dowry?
Lexi

[plkbvt]

>Peter Kurth would be another world-renowned expert on genetics like Shay McNeal, would he?<

No, he wouldn't. I am not a scientist, nor was I in any way connected with the DNA tests of 1994 apart from carrying a single lock of AA's hair to England -- NOT the sample from the bookstore in Chapel Hill, but one "in private hands," so to speak, and automatically worthless as evidence since it had been handled by so many people (as is also true of the hair from C.H.). The sample I carried was intended for Dr. Gill, but was not delivered directly to him, but rather to a reporter for the BBC who acted as intermediary, just as the testing of the blood of Carl Maucher was arranged, not by scientists, but by commercial television producers in Britain, who, since we so loosely toss around the word "agenda" here, plainly had one of their own. The sample I carried was never seen again or otherwise accounted for; none of the hair samples, to my knowledge, were restored to their owners -- which in itself, under law, would ensure that the test results were thrown out of court if anyone had ever dared to bring them there -- but of course they never did and never will.

While we're on the topic of "world-renowned experts," let me just say that, in regard to "Anna Anderson," her life and personality, I AM an expert, whereas most of the people posting here are not. I appreciate anyone's doubts and even negative conclusions about her identity with Anastasia, but I do not cede authority to those who never knew her, or anyone around her, and who thus feel free to perpetuate the most egregious (and insulting, and long disproved) remarks and notions about "what she was like," "what her motives were," and so on ... I have never in my life, over a long career in writing and journalism in no way limited to this one topic, heard so much pure bull**** streaming from so many half-baked heads as I have in this case -- a case that continues to aggravate and enrage the doubters and bring out the worst sort of prejudice in them all. You can quote me. pk

[ChatNoir]

Before we state that it is "disrespectful" to the Romanovs to still probe the mystery of Anastasia/Anna Anderson, we should remember that members of the Romanov family themselves came out in her defense. I am thinking of Grand Duke Andrew and Xenia Leeds.
When Gleb Botkin asked Prince Christopher of Greece about Grand Duchess Olga's negative attitude towards Anna Anderson, the Prince said: "Of course, Olga knows better than anyone that she is Anastasia."

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Before we state that it is "disrespectful" to the Romanovs to still probe the mystery of Anastasia/Anna Anderson, we should remember that members of the Romanov family themselves came out in her defense. I am thinking of Grand Duke Andrew and Xenia Leeds.
When Gleb Botkin asked Prince Christopher of Greece about Grand Duchess Olga's negative attitude towards Anna Anderson, the Prince said: "Of course, Olga knows better than anyone that she is Anastasia."

Most of the members in the Imperial family, like Grand duke Ernest of Hesse knew Anna Anderson wasn't Anastasia. Aunt, Olga and Irene even denied her. Aunt Olga, knew OTM and Anastasia very well.
Today's the birthdate of Grand Duchess Anastasia - June 18th, 1901. It will be nearly, 90 years after her death in July 17th, 1918 at the age of seventeen.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

Most of the members in the Imperial family, like Grand duke Ernest of Hesse knew Anna Anderson wasn't Anastasia.

And how did Grand Duke Ernest know that she was not Anastasia, he did not even meet her. When asked to come to Berlin to identify her, he refused, afraid it would hit the papers.

Aunt, Olga and Irene even denied her. Aunt Olga, knew OTM and Anastasia very well.

Olga stated to Herluf Zahle that: "My heart tells me that she is Anastasia". Later, on the behest of Gilliard, she changed her view, without ever seeing AA again. Irene said after the meeting: "She is like her, she is like her. What if it is her?" But she never returned for a second look.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Olga stated to Herluf Zahle that: "My heart tells me that she is Anastasia". Later, on the behest of Gilliard, she changed her view, without ever seeing AA again. Irene said after the meeting: "She is like her, she is like her. What if it is her?" But she never returned for a second look.

She never said, that! Show me,where she said this, Black cat? She said AA was too old to be Anastasia and doesn't resemble her at all. AA was actually FS the Polish fatory worker who ran away. Other people want to manipulate the truth.

Aunt Olga actually said this:
“My beloved Anastasia was fifteen when I saw her for the last time in the summer of 1916. She would have been twenty four in 1925. I thought Mrs Anderson looked much older than that. Of course, one had to make allowances for a very long illness and the general poor condition of her health. All the same, my niece’s features could not possibly have altered out of all recognition. The nose, the mouth, the eyes were all different.”

And how did Grand Duke Ernest know that she was not Anastasia, he did not even meet her. When asked to come to Berlin to identify her, he refused, afraid it would hit the papers.

You're right! Black cat, Ernest didn't meet AA, but he was certain from her picture, her story, the fact that he had seen the Berlin Illustrator magazine with the pictures and story on the family, and the word of others who met her, he was assured she was a complete fraud and set out to stop her ridiculous claim in its early years. He didn't want to see her, because he didn't want the speculation to get worse. Just, because he didn't meet AA doesn't mean his observation is wrong.Ernest, saw her photos and story. He notice that Anastasia had NO resemblence to the Grand Duchess Anastasia. Her eyes, lips, headline, mouth, teeth, ears, nose and eye and hair colour was different. Anastasia's hair colour was strawberry brown, and her eyes were dark grey.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

Aunt Olga actually said this:

Whose Aunt Olga? Yours? And why should we be interested in what your aunt Olga said?

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

Whose Aunt Olga? Yours? And why should we be interested in what your aunt Olga said?

No, Aunt Olga isn't my aunt. She's Anastasia aunt. Olga was very close to the imperial family. She's the youngest sister of Tsar Nicholas II. She was the daughter of both Marie Dagmar and Alexander III. You should be interested in what Olga says, because she's one of the people who proved that Anna Anderson was the true fraud and liar she really is.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

She never said, that! Show me,where she said this, Black cat?

Herluf Zahle has been quoted in Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann's book "Anastasia, the Survivor of Ekaterinburg", and in Peter Kurth's book "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson".

AA was actually FS the Polish fatory worker who ran away. Other people want to manipulate the truth.

Franziska Schanzkowska was actually a German factory worker who disappeared on March 9, 1920.

Aunt Olga actually said this:
“My beloved Anastasia was fifteen when I saw her for the last time in the summer of 1916. She would have been twenty four in 1925. I thought Mrs Anderson looked much older than that. Of course, one had to make allowances for a very long illness and the general poor condition of her health. All the same, my niece’s features could not possibly have altered out of all recognition. The nose, the mouth, the eyes were all different.”

Yes, she did. YEARS afterwards. Remember, both she and Gilliard left Berlin without being able to say that she was NOT Anastasia. Later, Olga wrote her: "I remember when we were together and you stuffed me with coffee, tea and chocolate." She also gave AA a photo album that had belonged to Grand Duchess Maria.

You're right! Black cat, Ernest didn't meet AA, but he was certain from her picture, her story, the fact that he had seen the Berlin Illustrator magazine with the pictures and story on the family, and the word of others who met her, he was assured she was a complete fraud and set out to stop her ridiculous claim in its early years. He didn't want to see her, because he didn't want the speculation to get worse. Just, because he didn't meet AA doesn't mean his observation is wrong.Ernest, saw her photos and story. He notice that Anastasia had NO resemblence to the Grand Duchess Anastasia. Her eyes, lips, headline, mouth, teeth, ears, nose and eye and hair colour was different. Anastasia's hair colour was strawberry brown, and her eyes were dark grey.[/quote]

[ChatNoir]

[quote=ChatNoir;788724]Herluf Zahle has been quoted in Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann's book "Anastasia, the Survivor of Ekaterinburg", and in Peter Kurth's book "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson".
Franziska Schanzkowska was actually a German factory worker who disappeared on March 9, 1920.
[/i]
Yes, she did. YEARS afterwards. Remember, both she and Gilliard left Berlin without being able to say that she was NOT Anastasia. Later, Olga wrote her: "I remember when we were together and you stuffed me with coffee, tea and chocolate." She also gave AA a photo album that had belonged to Grand Duchess Maria.

You're right! Black cat, Ernest didn't meet AA, but he was certain from her picture, her story, the fact that he had seen the Berlin Illustrator magazine with the pictures and story on the family, and the word of others who met her, he was assured she was a complete fraud and set out to stop her ridiculous claim in its early years.

When Count Hardenberg saw the photos of AA, he said: She does not look like Anastasia or Tatiana, but a mixture of the two.

He didn't want to see her, because he didn't want the speculation to get worse. Just, because he didn't meet AA doesn't mean his observation is wrong.Ernest, saw her photos and story. He notice that Anastasia had NO resemblence to the Grand Duchess Anastasia.

If he was so sure thatshe was animpostor, it would have been very easy for him to go to Berlin and unmask her. But Count Hardenberg's excuse for not doing so, was the fear of the visit ending up in the newspapers. And remember, this was AFTER Amy Smith's visit where she made Count Hardenberg very upset in mentioning AA's memory of her uncle Ernest's alleged trip to St. Petersburg during the war.

Her eyes, lips, headline, mouth, teeth, ears, nose and eye and hair colour was different. Anastasia's hair colour was strawberry brown, and her eyes were dark grey.

I think all discussion of likeness is moot in considering that Professors Eyckhart, Klenke, Reche and Furtmayr all came to the same conclusion in their professional studies of AA and Anastasia: The two faces were identical. As for the eyes:

Gilliard described Anastasia as having blue eyes, and if I remember correctly, Anna Viroubova did the same.

Here is a description of Anna Anderson's eyes:
"But the most overwhelming feature about her are her eyes. Of a greyish-blue, changing color, they shine like stars. Looking into them one seems to see unfathomable depths, as in very deep mountain lakes. I have never seen such eyes before."
(Gitta Müller-Mittler fo Fallows, September 5, 1935.)

It is worth noting that none of Franzisca's siblings could remember the color of her eyes.

For good measure, here is Gleb Botkin's description of Anastasia's eyes:
"But her eyes - blue, luminous eyes, always sparkling with humour - were truly beautiful."

[Menarue]

If I remember rightly it was said that Anna Anderson couldn´t speak Russian which isn´t quite so bad as it was said she couldn´t speak French... now that was very strange. She gave as an excuse when she was addressed in Russian that it brought back too many memories so she refused to answer.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Originally Posted by Menarue

If I remember rightly it was said that Anna Anderson couldn´t speak Russian which isn´t quite so bad as it was said she couldn´t speak French... now that was very strange. She gave as an excuse when she was addressed in Russian that it brought back too many memories so she refused to answer.

Yes, that is true Anna Anderson didn't know any Russian. Remember, Anna Anderson said that she didn't want to speak the langauge of the people who murdered her so called 'family'. It was of course an excuse. It wasn't proven that she knew Russian. I believe she did know a litte German.I don't believe her English was good either, it was very terrible and broken. She didn't know French either. Another reason why Anastasia isn't Anna Anderson is because of the hair. Anastasia just got her hair shaved from measles in Tobolsk in 1917. There is this last picture of Anastasia with her shaved hair.

Anastasia in 1918


Anastasia in 1915


These are two pictures of Anastasia. Notice in the first one it was the last picture taken of her. She has bangs. Unlike her, AA didn't have any bangs. Her hair grew back a couple of inches longer.The second photo, shows Anastasia with long hair in 1915. These are exactly how her bangs look. You can tell she looks NOTHING like Anna Anderson. Olga Alexandrovna stated that her nieces didn't know any German at all! They only knew, English, Russian, and French.

Herluf Zahle has been quoted in Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann's book "Anastasia, the Survivor of Ekaterinburg", and in Peter Kurth's book "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson".

I'm not surprised at all. It came from a book full of inaccurate and misleading information. It doesn't help prove anything.

Franziska Schanzkowska was actually a German factory worker who disappeared on March 9, 1920.

No, FS/AA was Polish. They both disapeared around the same time. So, what if it was nearly a month? Aren't you forgetting that technology was slower in the 1920's they only had newspapers and telegraphs to report news. Since, it was near the time where Germany was dealing with the Treaty of Versallies and President Wilson and the war.

Yes, she did. YEARS afterwards. Remember, both she and Gilliard left Berlin without being able to say that she was NOT Anastasia. Later, Olga wrote her: "I remember when we were together and you stuffed me with coffee, tea and chocolate." She also gave AA a photo album that had belonged to Grand Duchess Maria.

You're right, it was five years after 1920. It's better if you use information in her biography also. So, what if they didn't stay in Berlin! She still know Anastasia because she's Olga's niece. Gilliard, knew Anastasia wasn't Anna Anderson because she didn't know any French at all, nor Russian or English. Pierre Gilliard was Anastasia's French tutor he knew she spoke fluent French, Russian and English. Olga Alexandrona said the same exact thing, too.

The Last Grand Duchess- Olga Alexandrona
When Olga entered the room, the woman lying on a bed asked a nurse: “Ist das die Tante?”[Is this the Aunt?] “That”, confessed Olga, “at once took me aback. A moment later I remembered that the young woman having spent five years in Germany, would naturally have learnt the language, but then I heard that when she was rescued from that canal in 1920, she spoke nothing but German – when she spoke at all- which was not often. I readily admit that a ghastly horror experienced in one’s youth can work havoc with one’s memory but I have never heard of any ghastly experience endowing anyone with a knowledge they had not had before it happened. My nieces knew no German at all. Mrs Anderson did not seem to understand a word of Russian or English, the two languages all the four sisters had spoken since babyhood. French came a little later, but German was never spoken in the family''.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

Yes, that is true Anna Anderson didn't know any Russian.

Wrong. It is noted in the protocols at Dalldorf that she spoke Russian with the nurses there. The doctor who treated her at the Kleist's, said that she spoke Russian in her sleep, with good pronunciation, but mostly about unimportant things. In 1938, when she had a "good" period mentally, AA spoke Russian freely with Dr. Rudnev and Albert Coyle, an associate of Edward Fallows.

Remember, Anna Anderson said that she didn't want to speak the langauge of the people who murdered her so called 'family'. It was of course an excuse. It wasn't proven that she knew Russian.

See above.

I believe she did know a litte German.I don't believe her English was good either, it was very terrible and broken. She didn't know French either.

She spoke German very badly. (Franziska spoke good German.) Her English was good, according to Xenia Leeds, although her grammar was a little rusty. According to Dominique Aucleres, she spoke French with a beautiful accent.

Another reason why Anastasia isn't Anna Anderson is because of the hair. Anastasia just got her hair shaved from measles in Tobolsk in 1917. There is this last picture of Anastasia with her shaved hair.

Her hair was never measured in 1920, so this is a moot point.

I'm not surprised at all. It came from a book full of inaccurate and misleading information. It doesn't help prove anything.

I think you should be a little careful how you write about Mr. Kurth's meticulously researched book. It happens to be the very best book ever written on the subject.

No, FS/AA was Polish.

Read the report of the Berlin Police, it clearly states that FS was German.

They both disapeared around the same time. So, what if it was nearly a month? Aren't you forgetting that technology was slower in the 1920's they only had newspapers and telegraphs to report news. Since, it was near the time where Germany was dealing with the Treaty of Versallies and President Wilson and the war.

They did not disappear around the same time. AA was found on 2/17/1920. FS disappeared on 3/9/1920. And I don't think Frau Wingender needed a telegraph or a newspaper to deliver an "Abmeldung" to the local police!

You're right, it was five years after 1920. It's better if you use information in her biography also. So, what if they didn't stay in Berlin! She still know Anastasia because she's Olga's niece. Gilliard, knew Anastasia wasn't Anna Anderson because she didn't know any French at all, nor Russian or English. Pierre Gilliard was Anastasia's French tutor he knew she spoke fluent French, Russian and English. Olga Alexandrona said the same exact thing, too.

How very embarrassing it must then have been for Gilliard at the court in Hamburg where he had to admit to the judges that AA had spoken in Russian to his wife, Shura. According to Gilliard's memoirs, the Grand Duchesses never mastered French, only Alexei spoke it fluently.

The Last Grand Duchess- Olga Alexandrona

When Olga entered the room, the woman lying on a bed asked a nurse: “Ist das die Tante?”[Is this the Aunt?] “That”, confessed Olga, “at once took me aback.

And according to the others in the room, AA said nothing, just turned red and got a happy look on her face.

A moment later I remembered that the young woman having spent five years in Germany, would naturally have learnt the language, but then I heard that when she was rescued from that canal in 1920, she spoke nothing but German – when she spoke at all- which was not often.

See my other reply.

I readily admit that a ghastly horror experienced in one’s youth can work havoc with one’s memory but I have never heard of any ghastly experience endowing anyone with a knowledge they had not had before it happened. My nieces knew no German at all. Mrs Anderson did not seem to understand a word of Russian or English, the two languages all the four sisters had spoken since babyhood. French came a little later, but German was never spoken in the family''.

From Gilliard's timetables, now on display at the University of Lausanne, we know that the Grand Duchesses took German lessons up to the time in Tobolsk. Herr Kleinenberg was their tutor up to the revolution. Another proof is the discovery of Anastasia's schoolbooks on an auction in London. These make it clear that she took serious German lesson.