Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

Well, you are right. Other than the DNA evidence which is concrete, there is so much inconclusive evidence.

And, alas, so is the DNA. Try to take the DNA "proof" to court, and it will be thrown right out on its ear.

Some say one thing, other say something else.

Yes, and sifting through all this in order to find the truth can definitely be a daunting task.

I do not know the real truth. Fact is, no one does. DNA is quite potent.

And so is all the proof that went ahead of the DNA.

What always confused me, is that if she were alive, as her Grandmother the Dowager Empress said, would they have denied her.

Her Grandmother, the Dowager Empress, was not the least interested in learning about the unknown woman in Berlin. She was under the impression that the whole IF was alive and well, and a survivor in Berlin would shatter that belief. As her daughter Olga reportedly wrote to her secretary after having met Fräulein Unbekannt for the first time: "What am I going to tell Mamma, this will kill her." She also told Harriet von Rathlef-Keilmann: "I am so glad I came, mamma was so against me going to Berlin." Later, when Herluf Zahle went to the Dowager Empress to report on the subject of Fräulein Unbekannt, she was not at all interested, and her entire household were mad at Zahle for upsetting the old lady.

Forget, some of the minor players. Her aunts, who loved her very much, did not belive it to be her. I do not know the answer, as it is all conjecture, except for the DNA.

Her aunt Olga clearly showed that she believed in her until she was pressed by the family and Gilliard to tell otherwise. (It only took three months.) Xenia reportedly telegraphed her from England to "under no circumstances recognize the woman in Berlin". Later, according to Xenia Leeds, GD Xenia admitted that she knew that AA was AN and was willing to acknowledge her. But that late in the game, she knew that everyone would say she did it only for the money presumed to be in a bank in England. O, what a tangled web we weave.....

ChatNoir

[COUNTESS]

DNA has exonerated rapists and murders years later, so, that it has no bearing on this case is absurd. As far as this conspiracy in which her aunts engaged is also absurd. In Xenia, Once a Grand Duchess, it is stated that Olga went to meet Ms. Anderson on the insistence of her Aunt Thyra. Only Anastasia supporters have purported that she believed this was her niece, but changed her mind, but later changed her mind because she was influenced by her sister. She loved her niece, I doubt that she could be influenced, if she really believed this. Secondly, in the same book, The Grand Duchess Xenia and her daughter Princess Irina, were going to see Ms. Anderson, while she was staying at the Duke of Leuchtenberg's castle. They did not go. But she was at the castle. Neither Xenia or Olga or the Dowager Empress had any other interest, except the honor of the Romanov's. There were more than just Ms. Anderson purporting to be Anastasia. There were bogus Maries, Anastasias and Alexeis for many years.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

DNA has exonerated rapists and murders years later, so, that it has no bearing on this case is absurd.

If it could be proven that the intestine sample really came from AA, if it could be proven that Carl Maucher really was maternally linked with Frau Schanzkowsky, if the sample from Philip really could be proven to come from him etc etc. The chains of custody are far too unreliable to determine this case.

As far as this conspiracy in which her aunts engaged is also absurd.

Nothing is absurd when it comes to money.

In Xenia, Once a Grand Duchess, it is stated that Olga went to meet Ms. Anderson on the insistence of her Aunt Thyra. Only Anastasia supporters have purported that she believed this was her niece, but changed her mind, but later changed her mind because she was influenced by her sister. She loved her niece, I doubt that she could be influenced, if she really believed this.

If she really did not think it was her niece, why did she say to Harriet von Rathlef-Keilmann: "Our little one and Shura seem happy to have found each other again." Why did she say to Herluf Zahle: "My heart tells me the little one is Anastasia". Why did she write her mother's secretary: "How shall I tell Mamma, this will kill her." Why did she write AA: "I remember when we were together (in Russia)." Why did she wait three months before, at the behest of Gilliard, she came out and denied AA?

Secondly, in the same book, The Grand Duchess Xenia and her daughter Princess Irina, were going to see Ms. Anderson, while she was staying at the Duke of Leuchtenberg's castle. They did not go. But she was at the castle.

They did indeed not go!

Neither Xenia or Olga or the Dowager Empress had any other interest, except the honor of the Romanov's. There were more than just Ms. Anderson purporting to be Anastasia. There were bogus Maries, Anastasias and Alexeis for many years.

Yes, there were bogus claimants all over Europe. And they were all found out pretty soon if they stuck their necks too far out. And I repeat again: The Dowager Empress was not at all interested in hearing about a survivor, she held on to her belief that the whole family had survived.

ChatNoir

[COUNTESS]

Yes, the chain of evidence is tainted. I have never understood why they have not exhumed the body and tken DNA from her remains. Not that that would change life as we know it.

According to several boigraphers including John Van Der Kiste and Coryne Hall, money was not the object for the two Grand Duchesses and, certainly, not the Dowager Empress. She did off an $8,000,000, reward for anyone who could produce her granddaughter. Perhps, money was the motivater on that side, too.

And Harriet Von Rathlef might have been swayed by her opinions, too and also, money. Again, I say, no one knows. Opinion is just that. No real proof on either side.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

Yes, the chain of evidence is tainted. I have never understood why they have not exhumed the body and tken DNA from her remains. Not that that would change life as we know it.

There is no body, Anna Anderson was, by her own wishes, cremated and inurned at Schloss Seeon.

According to several boigraphers including John Van Der Kiste and Coryne Hall, money was not the object for the two Grand Duchesses and, certainly, not the Dowager Empress. She did off an $8,000,000, reward for anyone who could produce her granddaughter. Perhps, money was the motivater on that side, too.

Now, where on earth have you heard that the Dowager Empress offered $8,000,000 for finding her granddaughter? The lady did not have much money at all. As Olga said to Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann: "If I only had some money of my own, I would do anything to help the little one, but I have none. I have to earn my pocket money from painting." Money was the object indeed. Why else would Xenia appear at the Bank of England on the day of the 10th anniversary of the death of the IF? By then, of course, Gleb Botkin had managed by the help of his lawyer friend to block all possible funds until AA's case had been resolved. And Xenia got mad at Xenia Leeds, who in turn yelled at Botkin for messing around in the business of the IF. But he was just doing the bidding of AA, who did not want her aunts to inherit anything since they had treated her so shabbily.

And Harriet Von Rathlef might have been swayed by her opinions, too and also, money. Again, I say, no one knows. Opinion is just that. No real proof on either side.

Harriet von Rathlef-Keilmann just recorded what went on at the time she spent with AA. She has very few opinions about anything, she does not even call AA "Anastasia", only "the patient" or the "sick lady". The money she made from the book was placed for AA's disposal, but without her knowledge. She was mad enough as it was for "the Rathlef woman" airing her laundry for everyone to see. Never mind that it was for her own benefit. As she said about all the books written by people in the employment of the IF: "One just does not write such books."

ChatNoir

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Nothing is absurd when it comes to money.

One wonders if it was all about money at all. But what about the political implications? As at the moment Grand Duchess Maria seems to be the heir to the Russian throne, I think there must be some sort of semi-salic possibility in the rules of inheritance of the Romanows. So maybe AA, if she was Anastasia, had a claim to the throne, which surely didn't seem as lost back in the 1920s as it seems today.

[ChatNoir]

I don't think it was all about money. La Buxhoeveden was in danger of being discovered as a possible traitor. The grandmother in Copenhagen would not hear of any survivors that would shatter her beliefs about the family's survival. Uncle Ernie fought her beak and claw due to her information about his travels to Russia during the war. Madame Zanotti was in Uncle Ernies pockets. Xenia wanted money, (she was the one suing for leftovers of the Tsar's estate) and Gilliard was apparently handsomely paid by uncle Ernie to take his side. As GD Andrew said about AA: She knows too much.

ChatNoir

[COUNTESS]

So all were evil, except Madame Rathlef and AA. Just two paragons of virtue, sucked up into the vortex of Romanov meaness. Everyone else were traitors or scoundrals. Except for the above mentioned. Again, why not exhume AA and do a real DNA test. Why the fuss?

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

So all were evil, except Madame Rathlef and AA.

No, they were not evil, just human with their own agenda.

Just two paragons of virtue, sucked up into the vortex of Romanov meaness. Everyone else were traitors or scoundrals. Except for the above mentioned. Again, why not exhume AA and do a real DNA test. Why the fuss?

If you have really read about AA, you will know that she was anything but a paragon of virtue. She was extremely difficult and at times very demanding. And if you take time to read my posts instead of trying to be witty, you will learn that AA was cremated, there is no body available for exhumation.

ChatNoir

[lucien]

Oooooh,this discussion still going on?Moot,moot to a fauld really.AA was not Anastasia.Freedom of expression and freedom to discuss,yes,always,but this,really,is a joke,a bad joke on Anastasia's expense.

[Mermaid1962]

I was under the impression that Anna Anderson was positively identified as being someone other than the Grand Duchess. She was a German or Polish person, I believe?

Originally Posted by lucien

Oooooh,this discussion still going on?Moot,moot to a fauld really.AA was not Anastasia.Freedom of expression and freedom to discuss,yes,always,but this,really,is a joke,a bad joke on Anastasia's expense.

[Mermaid1962]

Here's a quote from this article:

Casualty of the Russian Revolution: "The Lost Grand Duchess Anastasia"

"DNA analysis in 1994 was done at the Martha Jefferson Hospital of hair and tissue samples from Anna Anderson proved that she was not Anastasia, but Franziska Schanzkowska. Contrary to misconceptions, there were numerous independent tests performed on her DNA, not just one. Their findings were unanimous. Anna Anderson was not related in any way to the Romanov dynasty, she could not have been the Grand Duchess Anastasia. Science succeeded where evidence and logic failed. The DNA findings also proved an elaborate fraud by those with inside knowledge of the Imperial Court of Nicholas. "

Originally Posted by Mermaid1962

I was under the impression that Anna Anderson was positively identified as being someone other than the Grand Duchess. She was a German or Polish person, I believe?

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by lucien

Oooooh,this discussion still going on?Moot,moot to a fauld really.AA was not Anastasia.Freedom of expression and freedom to discuss,yes,always,but this,really,is a joke,a bad joke on Anastasia's expense.

Until AA has LEGALLY been proven to be anybody else, she is still AN in my book.

ChatNoir

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Mermaid1962

Here's a quote from this article:

Casualty of the Russian Revolution: "The Lost Grand Duchess Anastasia"

"DNA analysis in 1994 was done at the Martha Jefferson Hospital of hair and tissue samples from Anna Anderson proved that she was not Anastasia, but Franziska Schanzkowska. Contrary to misconceptions, there were numerous independent tests performed on her DNA, not just one. Their findings were unanimous. Anna Anderson was not related in any way to the Romanov dynasty, she could not have been the Grand Duchess Anastasia. Science succeeded where evidence and logic failed. The DNA findings also proved an elaborate fraud by those with inside knowledge of the Imperial Court of Nicholas. "

It's amazed me that they labeled her as a poor Polish peasant when she didn't have those traits.
Who was she? Don't know. Maybe we never will.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Mermaid1962

Here's a quote from this article:

Casualty of the Russian Revolution: "The Lost Grand Duchess Anastasia"

"DNA analysis in 1994 was done at the Martha Jefferson Hospital of hair and tissue samples from Anna Anderson proved that she was not Anastasia, but Franziska Schanzkowska.

DNA analysis was done at Aldermaston in England plus two labs in USA, of which one has still to make a full report. The tissue sample was found at the MJH after almost three months of searching for it, and the hair was found in an envelope among Mr. Manahan's things. Because of the dubious chain of custody, none of these samples would make proof in a court of law. The same is the case with the sample from Prince Philip and Carl Maucher. The samples were not collected in accordance with legal procedures.

Contrary to misconceptions, there were numerous independent tests performed on her DNA, not just one. Their findings were unanimous. Anna Anderson was not related in any way to the Romanov dynasty, she could not have been the Grand Duchess Anastasia. Science succeeded where evidence and logic failed. The DNA findings also proved an elaborate fraud by those with inside knowledge of the Imperial Court of Nicholas. "

Unfortunately, the DNA findings proved nothing. Otherwise we would long ago have had a legal ruling that AA was FS and not AN.

ChatNoir

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Russophile

It's amazed me that they labeled her as a poor Polish peasant when she didn't have those traits.
Who was she? Don't know. Maybe we never will.

Actually, she was labelled a German peasant by the Berlin police. FS, that is. But the Berlin police never tied the two together, only Martin Knopf could manage that one.

ChatNoir

[Russophile]

Another fascinating twist to this mystery. It's like actors. You see somebody play somebody brilliant on the screen and you think, Oh yes! They MUST be brilliant! And they're dumb as a post. And you have these people telling you no, she's not, and yes, she is and there's authoritative's on both sides. It just keeps going, and going, and going. . .

[ChatNoir]

Here is a letter from Grand Duke Andrew to the editor of Harriet von Rathlef-Keilmann's book:

Villa Alam, Cap d'Ail, A/M. 8th July, 1928

Mr. P. S. von Kügelgen
Berlin-Zehlendorf,
Kleistrasse 20.

My dear Paul Pavlovich,

In order to obviate the possibility of any misunderstanding whatever, I should like to indicate in general lines the object of my work.
When I began my investigations, it became obvious to me that everything that had hitherto been done had been carried out unsystematically, that no accurate reports existed, and that no one had been inspired by a fixed purpose.

It is perfectly obvious that the question of the "Unknown," as she was called, must be dealt with in such a manner that the first point to be established is whether it was as all probable that one of the Princesses was rescued from Ekaterinburg. Inquiries made with this object in view have yielded no documentary evidence; but it transpired that the rescue of one of the Prencesses was not merely probable, but might almost be regarded as an established fact. The absence of precise information admittedly renders it impossible to treat this hypothesis as proved, and for this reason many people disagree on the point. Nevertheless, facts are known to me which have convinced me, although at the moment I do not feel myself justified in divulging them, since this aspect of the case must be handled very carefully.
The question next arises, whether the "Unknown" sho appeared in Berlin is identical with the Princess. As documentary evidence is lacking, we are forced to content ourselves with the interrogation of the patient herself. chiefly in regard to verifying her recollections. As far as this is concerned, I must state that her reminiscences, so far as I have been able ro examine them, yield a description, clear in every respect, of actual facts. Everything which she recalls is an absolutely accurate description of the life of the Royal Family, including details which have never appeared in the Press. My own opinion is that the things which the patient remembers are such as only the Princess herself could recall.
We next come to a question which has given rise to considerable doubt, whether the "Unknown" resembles the Princess in appearance. I have seen her personally, and was greatly impressed by the striking similarity; I was even more struck by the general family resemblance, which is in some respects of almost greater importance than a personal likeness. My impression was, of course, a personal one, but it was so strong and so convincing that I could come to no other conclusion than that the patient could only be the Princess Anastasia Nikolaevna herself.
All the doubts so far expressed by the Press are completely removed by the scientific and practical results of my investigations. ALthough I was prepared to admit that there might be objections, I have been compelled to regard them as entirely unfounded and unproven. My opinions are confirmed by the similar manner in which these objections have been treated by Duke George von Leuchtenberg.
As regards two other questions, it is absolutely necessary that they should be fully confuted: the first is whether any political influence enters into the case. The reappearance of the Princess can have no political significance, since, in view of the fact that male members of our dynasty survive, her chance of succession is a very remote one. The second question is that of material interests being involved. Long before the "Unknown" appeared, I carefully investigated all the rumours concerning the existence of the millions alleged to have been left by the late Tsar; in every case these rumours proved to be unfounded, as I expected. Unfortunately it has to be borne in mind that this statement is being used as a means of throwing suspicion on all who took any part in my inquiries, by accusing them of being influenced by self-interest and speculative motives.

The object which I undertook when commencing my work is and continues to be the same - to establish the truth, be it what it may. All who have helped me for nearly two years are inspired by the same aims, so that I am grieved and angered by the accusations levelled against them, even more so than by those of which I myself am the victim, The investigation has never deviated from the prescribed methods, and has embraced with equal readiness all material whether favourable or otherwise.

No matter how much time is required, the investigation will be pursued until the truth is established and proved, for it is just as inconceivable that a stranger should claim to be the Princess, as that the Princess herself should be in such a distressing position.

I must not omit to express my gratitude to the German Press for its help in much of my work, and would like to express the hope that in the future it will devote to the matter the same attention and accord the same unbiased treatment, and thus help me to ascertain the truth.

In conclusion, I wish to emphasize the fact that I regard it as my duty to carry my investigations to a conclusion, and that I shall spare myself no labour in my efforts to endure that truth triumphs in the end.
Everyone may rest assured that I shall be the first to admit it, if in the future evidence is produced that I have been mistaken, and that the patient is not the Princess. If, however, proof is forthcoming that I was right, and that she actually is the Princess, it will afford me an extraordinary moral satisfacton that I and all who have so devotedly helped me have fulfilled this duty to the end. This will be the greatest reward for all of us.

Sincerely yours,
Andrew.

----------------
As far as I can remember, Grand Duke Andrew was one of the last of the family to see the children before they were sent to Tobolsk.

ChatNoir

[lucien]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Until AA has LEGALLY been proven to be anybody else, she is still AN in my book.

ChatNoir

Dear Chat,your world would crumble to dust if you would galantly admit that the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolayevna was murdered in july 1918.

AA was a lone soul,not quite mentally developed,which was not her fould ofcourse,and then used and misled by every fool and his dog.
Some made a living out of that.I find that appalling,an insult to AN,and the Imperial Family,her family that is.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by lucien

Dear Chat,your world would crumble to dust if you would galantly admit that the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolayevna was murdered in july 1918.

Why on earth would my world crumble? I didn't even know the woman.

AA was a lone soul,not quite mentally developed,which was not her fould ofcourse,and then used and misled by every fool and his dog.

Maybe you could give us the names of all these fools and their dogs.

Some made a living out of that.I find that appalling,an insult to AN,and the Imperial Family,her family that is.

And who made a living out of "that"? Personally, I don't think the IF gives a hoot.

ChatNoir