Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

The reality is, AA did not know English (as witnessed by Bux, Olga and Felix Y) and was taught it later (as witnessed by Dmitri L.)

So are you saying that Dmitri actually SAW her having English lessons? "The reality is" that the rest of his family didn't believe she had learned it whilst staying with them and their testimony contradicts his.

[Anna was Franziska]

Remember that the parents were (at the time) supporters, so they would take her side. Since their son, and the Von Kliests' daughter both could see AA was a total fake as a Russian GD, it does seem the younger generations were not quite so easily fooled. Could this be they had less 'wishful thinking' due to being less nostalgic for the old Russia than the older generations? It's a thought.

Anyway, he was right, AA did not know English, several people who had known AN well and spoke to her in English found it strange she did not know the language and it contributed to them being sure she was an imposter.

Her being taught it at the time he specified fits in with the timeline of not knowing English when she met the emigres' yet suddenly knowing some when she came to America (though I'm sure she was far from fluent since she never mastered it in her life)

As far as my 'theories', AA not being AN is not a theory, it's a proven historical and scientific FACT.

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter

Menarue, they arrived in 43AD and had completely left by 410 - so 350 years.

I was never good at math. Thanks.

[Anna was Franziska]

Ever since reading "Lost Fortune of the Tsars" I have been thinking a lot about the money aspect of the AA case. It's really interesting that those who still deny the DNA results have mentioned- or even if they haven't, they have to think it, why else doubt them- that someone did a 'swap' or 'paid somebody off' to forge a bad result. Let's face it, as Dr. Melton has already told us it's impossible for four labs to all make the same exact random error, and the fact that the bone fragments found in 2007 prove all five kids are now accounted for, the AA tests are a moot point anyway, intestine switch be d*mned! Also, people have alluded to or even openly stated that various people who were testifying against AA did so for money or financial support from the royals (Olga and Gilliard are most often accused) But the irony in all of it is, it now appears that it was the other way around, some people on her side may well have been faking, embellishing, helping with memories, etc. in hopes of a cut of the alleged big payoff if she won her case. Since in every court case there are two sides and one turns out to be wrong,we now know which one was wrong. Therefore, it's completely rational and logical to deduct everyone in her favor was either a liar or sadly mistaken (about dates, her identity, or a other things) Some may well have been encouraged to give information that would help AA's case, even if it wasn't accurate, because of greed and promised money. So much for the 'greedy relatives' (and BTW I have greedy relatives so I know they do exist!) the real money scamming seems to have come from the AA side.

I don't blame AA/FS herself as much as her backers, I believe she was a mentally unstable woman in the right place at the right time in a most fortunate situation (mistaken for a GD) who was USED- though we can't absolve her of all fault since she did go along with it. But once she'd already made the claim, what could she do? Any denial would have meant jail, mental asylum, in Nazi Germany, even a death camp due to her insanity. All she could do was keep playing along until her mind was so lost she may have actually come to believe it.

[ChatNoir]

As for AA's English, we have the statement from Conrad Wahl, (made long after there was a chance of making any money, by the way): I remember "die kranke Dame" as someone who spoke more English than German." This was during her stay at Wahl's uncle, inspector Grünberg with the Berlin Police.
When Professor Rudnev operated on her arm, she would "rave in English" during anesthesia, but remembered nothing of it when she woke up.
When Bella Cohen addressed her in English at the Mommsen clinic, AA answered back in English.
At Lugano, she once met an English woman on the boat while crossing the lake. She would speak English with her, and the woman asked her to take some dictation. AA wrote down a whole page, although with a few spelling mistakes, and surprised Frau Rathlef to no end.
At Seeon, she would practise English with Faith Lavington. Miss Lavington stated in her diary that she had the purest accent, and it was clear to her that AA knew English very well. The trouble was to get her to talk.
When Agnes Gallagher came to Paris to escort AA to America, she was informed that AA only spoke German, a language that Miss Gallagher did not know. However, as soon as AA was installed on the "Berengaria", she started speaking English, and spoke nothing else when she arrived in New York.
When Gleb Botkin visited in 1927, he observed that the Leuchtenbergs and all their children were friendly in their attitude against AA exept for Dmitri who was almost hostile to her. None of them could, of course, say who she was since none of them knew Anastasia.
As for the supporters wanting to make money on AA, I think it is time you show some foundation for your ridiculous claims.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Conrad Wahl, inspector Grünberg with the Berlin Police.
Professor Rudnev
Bella Cohen Frau Rathlef

Gleb Botkin

As I was saying...supporters. The people I posted mostly knew AN personally and had a very different view.

As for Lavington, in Welch's book, it tells how she believed AA looked exactly like FS and that her faith was shaken.

As for the supporters wanting to make money on AA, I think it is time you show some foundation for your ridiculous claims.

Ridiculous? It's very obvious. There was supposedly a lot of money out there for someone proving themself to be an heir of the last Tsar. Naturally a lot of people found that appealing. Fallows was clearly in it for money, and anyone recruited by him to testify is extremely suspect. Much of what was stated about AA is completely false (such as the Heinrich Kleibetzel story, Dnieper crossing, etc) Where did all this come from? Thin air? Or people trying to help AA win? We KNOW she was NOT REALLY AN and her entire escape story was FAKE. So where does this leave all these comments? In the trash pile of lies. Why lie? $ You imply the royals and others such as Gilliard lied for money, yet it sure looks like it was the other side! (and of course knowing who was right and wrong proves this even more)

[ChatNoir]

And as usual, all hat and no cattle. You are accusing people of lying and greed, and still you cannot back up any of your statements.

[Anna was Franziska]

I HAVE backed them up with the FACT that AA WAS NOT AN therefore the stories did not happen aka LIES! With the nurse, I'm willing to go out on a long limb and say AA did say those things to her but AFTER she came out with Clara in early 1922. Years later, people do get dates wrong, so it's possible she made a mistake, or it's possible she originally gave the right date and someone told her to change it to the year before to help AA. So that may not be a total fabrication, but whether or not the date error was intentional would make it a lie or not. The person who claimed to have seen FS going to England, or in an asylum, were likely innocently mistaken (but of course they may have lied, we'll never know, just giving benefit of the doubt here) However, anything connected to the 'escape' story,such as the Dnieper crossing, Heinrich K., baby in Romanian orphanage, husband shot, etc. IS A LIE because it all never happened and was made up!

Chat, I see you ignored my question asking you to prove the DNA tests- ALL of them- invalid and tell us WHY. "I refuse to speculate" is NOT an answer. If you can do nothing but refuse to speculate, I assume this means you have no answer, but somehow think your decades old word of mouth from random people outweigh the DNA, but it doesn't. When can I please get my answer?

[AGRBear]

Timeline:
I omitted this post and reposted below.

AGRBear

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

I HAVE backed them up with the FACT that AA WAS NOT AN therefore the stories did not happen aka LIES! With the nurse, I'm willing to go out on a long limb and say AA did say those things to her but AFTER she came out with Clara in early 1922. Years later, people do get dates wrong, so it's possible she made a mistake, or it's possible she originally gave the right date and someone told her to change it to the year before to help AA. So that may not be a total fabrication, but whether or not the date error was intentional would make it a lie or not. The person who claimed to have seen FS going to England, or in an asylum, were likely innocently mistaken (but of course they may have lied, we'll never know, just giving benefit of the doubt here) However, anything connected to the 'escape' story,such as the Dnieper crossing, Heinrich K., baby in Romanian orphanage, husband shot, etc. IS A LIE because it all never happened and was made up!

Chat, I see you ignored my question asking you to prove the DNA tests- ALL of them- invalid and tell us WHY. "I refuse to speculate" is NOT an answer. If you can do nothing but refuse to speculate, I assume this means you have no answer, but somehow think your decades old word of mouth from random people outweigh the DNA, but it doesn't. When can I please get my answer?

I am not a scientist, therefore I will not speculate about the DNA. And you were not present when the AA story unfolded, therefore you should not speculate either and call people greedy, liars or worse without any justification than your own words: "it did not happen". If you want to refute their testimonies and statements, you should be prepared to do so with reputable sources.

[ChatNoir]

Since we are on the subject of the flight across the Dniestr, here is the statement from Sarsha Gregorian:
RUMANIA, MINISTRY OF THE INTERIOR, CRIMINAL AND POLICE DEPARTMENT, SECRETARIAT.

Memorandum

In an Armenian church in the town of Jassy is employed an Armenian, by name Sarscho Gregorian, who fled from Russia in the year 1919. The above-named person declares that on 5th December, 1918, on the way from Russia to Rumania, he crossed the River Dniester. But, before he crossed the Dniester, he was at a monastery near the Rumanian frontier. At this monastery there was also the Russian Grand Duchess Anastasia, the youngest daughter of Tsar Nicholas II, who, on the night of the murder at Ekaterinburg, was rescued by a soldier of the Red guard. This soldier belonged to the watch of the house Ipatiev, in which the Imperial Family was interned.
During the stay in this monastery, in which the fugitive was waiting for a favourable moment to cross the Dniester, the Bolshevist army one night approached, and everyone was forced to flee. The Armenian Sarscho Gregorian, with his wife and three children, crossed the Dniester, as did the Grand Duchess Anastasia, at a point called Beresina. (Should be Resina) From that point, they went to Orgeiev. On the further bank they met a Russian Army officer, who appeared to be a colonel, who took all the fugitives in his car and brought them further on the way to Orgeiev. From Orgeiev, the Grand Duchess was taken to Bucharest. When Sarscho Gregorian was in Kishinev, and to be explicit, on 6th May, 1919, he received through a messenger from Bucharest 5,000 lei from the Grand Duchess Anastasia in token of his help during the flight described above.
When Anastasia left Kishinev, she sent Sarscha Gregorian a wooden cross and an ikon, and asked him not to have his children baptized until she returned, as she would like to stand sponsor to them. And to the present day the Armenian's children are still unbaptized as he is waiting for the return of the Grand Duchess Anastasia.

(signed) Lieut. -General Heroua
Bucharest,
4th May, 1927

[Menarue]

Who was this Sasha Gregorian? How would he know it was the GD Anastasia - was it only because she told him she was? He waited all that time without Baptising his children? Unfortunately he sounds like a very naive peasant, but I am interested to hear who he was in fact.

[AGRBear]

>>>>17 Feb 1920. 9:00 PM ...

>>The person who is to be known as Anna Anderson jumped off the Bendler Bridge into the Landwehr Canal, in Berlin. She was pulled out of the water by Police Serg. Hallman and taken to Elizabeth Hospial in Lutzowstrasse<<

>>End of March 1920 AA was sent to Dalldorf Asylum<<

>>Doctors exaimination on 30 March 1920 recorded her weight at 110 pounds and her height at just under five feet two...<<

>>17 June 1920 AA was fingerprinted and photographed. These photographs were sent from Berlin out to Stuttgart, Brunswick, Hamurg, Munich, Dresden... (Weimar Republic). Places in Berlin, which probably included FS asylum where she spent some time more than once, were checked throughly.... Family members of those who had lost a dau., wife... were brought to see AA... This included the family of a Maria Wacowiak in Posen....

1920 Sumertime: Nurse Erna Bucholz, the former teacher, who had lived in Russia testified in AA's trial in Hamburg that AA spoke to AA in fluent Russia and that AA talked about Russian affairs and Russian military matters....

23 Oct 1921 -Newspaper article:

Originally Posted by tsarskoe

Many of the details of the Romanov murders were reproduced in newspapers such as the Berlin Illustrated and other tabloids in the early 1920's. We know details about the murder and photographs of the semi basement room were published in the October 23rd 1921 edition of the Berlin Illustrated (The cover has the now famous photograph of the ailing Marie, Anastasia and Tatiana taken during their measles outbreak. This was a family photograph and not a postcard or formal portrait. Personal photographs were already starting to show up in publications). According to the nurse Chemitz's testimony from the German trials she stated that she and the other nurses knew about the Romanov murders since the all newspapers were "full" of stories regarding the murder. So again it can be of no surprise that AA knew basic information about the Romanovs at this time.

[Interestingly Chemnitz also said that she and another nurse who testified at the trials were not native German speakers and did not speak German "perfectly" at the time they worked on the floor with AA. In fact she believed that AA spoke better German than herself.]

>>autumn of 1921 AA announced she was the GD Anastasia and talked about the jewels sewn in her clothes. From testimony in AA's trial in Hamburg.<<

Nov. or Dec. 1921 ? >>Claire Peuthert was committed to Dalldorf at the end of 1921<<


20 Jan. 1922: Claire>>....left the Dalldorf Asylum on the twentieth of January 1922... << p. 14 - Kurth

Feb. 1922: Clara claimed she had written GD Ernst of Hesse and told him "...there resides in Dalldof... a young lady who says she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia..."

6 March 1922, Sunday: Capt. von Schwabe met Clara >>in the inner couryard of the Russian embassy church on Unter den Linden selling monarchist propaganda to the faithful.<< p. 16 ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON by Peter Kurth. We're told Clara told Capt. Schwabe that AA was Tatiana.

2:00 pm, 8 March 1922, Wednesday: Capt. Schwabe and Jaenicke visited AA in Dalldorf. Left her with the copy of The Double Eagle , which is Russian and had a photo of the Dowager Empress Marie, and chocolates. When they left a nurse [p. 21 Kurth] asked the two men if they had reconized anybody? The nurse later testified that AA had told her moments later that the photo was her grandmother. Capt. Schwabe visted the Supresme Moarchist Council, told then my he knew and they immediately place a "number of former officers with pistol were dispatched to stake out the Dalldorf Asylum and make sure that no one tried to remove Fraeulin Unbekannt.

March 1922 [Before the 11th..] (1) The council tracked down Mme. Zinaida ("Zina") Tolstoy. (2) Capt. Schwabe, Capt Andreievsky and Mme. Tolstoy visted Dalldorf and were met by the medical sperintendent of the elisabeth Hosptial Dr. Winicke [p.22-Kurth]. It was the doctor who asked the nurses to get AA, who refused. Capt. Schwabe went to see and talk to AA [p. 23-Kurth]. Zinaida and Andreievsky was soon to follow and see AA. The three of them concluded that AA was GD Tatiana. Later at the Council, it was decided to summon Buxhovenden.

11 March 1922, Buxhovenden visited AA and annouced her opinion, "She's too short for Tatiana." p. 25 in Kurth's ANASTASIA, THE RIDDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON.

23 of August 1922 in a letter from Clara to Princess Irene of Prussia, sister of the Empress of Russia which is found in "From a translation of "La Fausse Anastasie" by Gilliard, translated by Kransnoe" AWF posted she tells Princess Irene:

>>I wrote in February to the Grand Duke Hesse-Darmstadt that there resides in Dalldorf asylum a young lady who says she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaiievna Romanov.

As I often saw this young lady in photographs during her in her youth, and during a stay which I did in Russia, I promised to get her out of this place where she is living (utterly) abandoned.

She related to me, that at the time of the assassination of the Imperial family, she received injuries to her hand and behind her ear, then was knocked to the floor, upon which she fainted. A mere soldier, named Tschaiikovski, took her and hid her. HIs mother and his sister cared for her. But when it was noticed that a corpse was missing a search was undertaken to find the soldier; the family who was taking care of Anastasia was in danger and fled to Bucharest. As this young lady was alone in the world and the name Romanov could endanger her, Anastasia, then seventeen years old, married the soldier whose family formerly belonged to Polish nobility. Anastasia gave birth to a son that carried the name of Alexis. They lived in Bucharest for a certain period of time, I think about two years, then the family's hideout was discovered; Anastasia's husband was injured by a bullet which struck his lungs; he was brought back seriously injured to the house, where he died, due to the continuous blood loss he suffered.<<

AGRBear

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Menarue

Who was this Sasha Gregorian? How would he know it was the GD Anastasia - was it only because she told him she was? He waited all that time without Baptising his children? Unfortunately he sounds like a very naive peasant, but I am interested to hear who he was in fact.

All I know about Sarsho Gregorian, is what is related in my post. He was working at a church in Jassy at the time of the statement. (1927)

From Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann's book:

I have now to record a remarkable fact. In Bucharest, and everywhere where there was a possibility of hearing witnesses, it turned out that a Russian called Vleskov, who had come from Berlin with money and letters, had worked on the witnesses to that they either refused to make any statements or told inconsistent stories. They could tell a lot, but they dared not.....
Moreover, an official, although one in no position of authority, who has shown great interest in the work, suddenly refused to co-operate, and when he learned that the Jassy minutes (Sarscha Gregorian) were in my hands, he anxiously tried to discover where they were. This comprehensive and careful opposition, for which considerable funds seem to have been available, naturally made our work quite hopeless.

[ChatNoir]

And for good measure, here is the statement that made Frau Rathlef-Keilmann think that the mysterious Alexander Chaikowsky was the soldier Stanislav Mishkevich:

HEADQUARTERS OF THE POLICE AND GENERAL SECURITY CENTRAL BRIGADE

Declaration

I, the undersigned C. C. A., belonging to the town of C. District J, and resident in that town in Gh. D.-street, No, -, depose as follows:-
From 1917 to April 1918, I was in Russia, where I worked for the Ministry for War Industries as well as for the French military technical mission, for whom I made various journeys to Arkhangel, Petrograd, Riga, Kharkov, Moscow, Shimferopol, Vologda, Ekaterinburg, Kiev, and Odessa, where I made the acquaintance of a large number of Russian officers of the Tsarist army.
On my return to Rumania, I was still in need of surgical treatment; I betook myself soon after, on 27th November, 1918, to the Filantropia hospital, which I left again later. One day, as I was sitting on a seat in Victoria Square near the hospital, I was hailed by a Pole, a good friend of mine, whom I had got to know in Russia, where he had served in the Bolshevik army. I knew him as Stanislav. He was of middle height, with dark brown hair, and had a scar on his left eye.
In Russia, he had been accustomed to address me as 'Pan', as I did him. But I knew that his name was Stanislav, although I did not know his family name.
After we had chatted for some time, he asked me whether there were any Bolsheviks in Rumania. I answered him that there were none, nor would there be any. As he knew that in Russia I had belonged to the party of the "Cadets", he said that he had something to tell me which was, and must remain, secret. He made me give my word that I would keep the secret, and told me that, if I did not, I would be killed and my family ruined.
When I had given my word, he began to tell me how he, Stanislav, had with him a seriously injured person whom he wanted to bring to Bucharest, to put in a hospital. It must not, however, be a military hospital.
Thereupon, I recommended to him Dr. Gerotta's Sanatorium, which however would be very dear. He answered that that did not matter; he had sufficient money; but the secret must be kept. I answered that if no crime of fraud was involved, he could set his mind at rest, as people in Rumania enjoyed considerable freedom.
Then he said, "But if the injured person - is a woman, would I be able to bring her in as a man?" I said that this would be impossible; whereupon, with tears in his eyes, my friend Stanislav told me the truth:
"I have in my care a woman from the family of the Tsar, whom Yurovski, the big, rough metal-worker, killed. Yurovski only killed the Tsar, the Tsaritsa, and one daughter, Of the other members of the Tsar's family who were put to death by the soldiers of the guard, I rescued one of the daughters, and I now want to bring her here with a comrade from a village near Odessa, in the direction of Nikolaev, where I have left her. I wish to save her from the Bolsheviks, who would kill me also, if they knew what I had done."
Then I asked him how he had managed to rescue her. He replied that Yurovski, the big, rough Boshevik, had killed the Tsar, the Tsaritsa, and one of the daughters; he had put the bodies on a "Packard" motor van, and had burned them i a wood near the place of the murder, so that Kolchak's troops, which were approaching Ekaterinburg, should not find them. Of the remaining members of the Tsar's family, he had saved one daughter, and had brought her in a little cart to the region of Nikolaev-Odessa. She was wounded in the head and the face by a blow from the butt end of a rifle.
Here we parted, without his having made a decision. I expected that he would write to me at the address I had given him at C.; but I received no news.
Later, I read in a newspaper of the capital that a Miss von Sp., at the Hotel Splendid, had come to Bucharest on behalf of the Grand Duchess Anastasia, whom my friend Stanislav had saved. I wrote to this lady that I could give her certain information on the question. This information is the same as that set down here, written and signed by my hand.

(Signed) C. C. A.

GH. D.-STREET, NO.-, C., DISTRICT J.

P. S.- When we met Stanislav on the Viktoria Platz it was November, 1918. He was very neatly dressed, had a cloak of khaki material with cloth buttons, shoes, and a bowler hat.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

I am not a scientist, therefore I will not speculate about the DNA.

Just what I said you'd say, what you always say. Then how can you deny it? What are your grounds for denial if you know nothing about it? Your own sad desire for AA to be AN? She had to be because you want her to be? Is that all?

And you were not present when the AA story unfolded, therefore you should not speculate either and call people greedy, liars or worse without any justification than your own words: "it did not happen". If you want to refute their testimonies and statements, you should be prepared to do so with reputable sources.

Reputable source to everything I called a lie: THE DNA! AA was proven not to be AN, and her entire 'escape' saga was made up. That means every part of it and everyone who claimed to have been part of it were LIES/LIARS and all those reports you just posted are pure fiction. If you feel 'lie' is too harsh, we could downgrade it to the 'legend' or 'fairy tale' status, but the reality, or should I say lack thereof, will never change. FAKE. Just like the Easter Bunny, Santa, Tooth Fairy, and Great Pumpkin.

The "greed" is common sense: there was a very large about of money involved. (allegedly at the time) Who is naive enough to think all those people were rounded up after all those years, some telling lies, just to be 'nice?' Get a glimpse of the real world! And by the way, you always say Olga and Gilliard lied for 'greed', so you have made plenty of unfounded accusations that fall flat since their side turned out to be right, so you have no room to get snippy with anyone for calling someone 'greedy'.

[ChatNoir]

Same old, same old. And when you are at it, could you please look up the post where I accused Olga of lying for greed?
Thank you.

[Anna was Franziska]

Yes it sure is the same old, from you. You always accuse Olga of 'turning her back' on AA and denying her for money after Xenia told her to stop (your story, not the reality that she just plain realized she wasn't her niece) Every time I post Olga's anti AA quotes you post ones where she appears to accept her and always leave the impression she did accept her but was forced to deny her- and why? Money! But that's really wrong, especially considering Olga had no money, was the black sheep of the family and got no favors from them. The reason she denied AA and fought her was because it was so hurtful having someone pretend to be your murdered niece. And no, AA didn't deserve the money, because since she wasn't AN it wasn't hers. Olga never would have denied a real AN. Heck, it would have been to her advantage to accept a real AN, she'd have given her more than the family ever did! But alas, she was NOT AN and Olga knew this.

AND I'm still waiting for why ANY of this matters since we have the DNA tests, unless you can refute them. "I refuse to speculate" is NOT an answer, or even a reason not to believe. Let's her it.WHY do you believe all these old comments trump the official DNA results?

[ChatNoir]

Maybe I should post Olga's own statements again:

My head cannot grasp it, but my heart tells me that the little one is Anastasia. And since I have been brought up in a faith that tells me to follow my heart, I cannot forsake this girl.

To Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann:
Our little one and Shura seem happy to have found one another again. I am so happy I came. Mamma was so angry with me because I was going.

To her mother's secretary:
How shall I tell Mamma, this will kill her.

Later, in her writings to AA:
Remember, you are no longer alone.
Thinking of you all the time.
Longing to see you.
I remember when we were together, and you stuffed me with cocoa, tea and coffee.

And, as you probably know, these were Olga's words, not mine. Was she a liar, too?

[Anna was Franziska]

Just as I said, you post a lot of things from when she was still humoring her and feeling sorry for her. She said other things you ignore. Rathlef is an AA supporter who was selling stories, I do not trust her. And even you admit Olga did not read the manuscript through because she couldn't read German. The fact is, even if she took time to be sure, she totally rejected AA as AN and it wasn't for greed, it was because she really wasn't AN. It's horrible to villanize this woman years after her death when she was right and did the right thing.

I still want to know why any of these old comments matter since DNA has proven her a fake? Got any valid reasons? If not, I guess it's over.