Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[plkbvt]

Originally Posted by ysbel

The quote feature got messed up when you responded to me so I'll respond to what I can figure out that you wrote:

It doesn't make sense to claim that Anna Anderson's case is different because of who she claimed to be.

But it DOES make a difference in terms of who and what she actually was. This is what you don't get, not having known her, and not having had the chance to know that she was neither "insane" nor "pretending." There is not one scrap of medical or psychiatric evidence, from 1920 till she died in 1984, that contradicts this: the verdict was unanimous from all medical people: "She is neither insane nor pretending to be somebody she is not."

You would ignore all this -- indeed, you do. You're entitled to your point of view about her identity, of course, but NOT to make up tales about what her character and life were actually like. It seems to me that you have read enough -- just enough -- to know the outlines, but not to know anything about her for real, in depth. And your sheer hatred of her is something I will never understand. pk

[Elspeth]

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[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by plkbvt

But it DOES make a difference in terms of who and what she actually was. This is what you don't get, not having known her, and not having had the chance to know that she was neither "insane" nor "pretending." There is not one scrap of medical or psychiatric evidence, from 1920 till she died in 1984, that contradicts this: the verdict was unanimous from all medical people: "She is neither insane nor pretending to be somebody she is not."

Unanimous? Who asked them all? What about the doctors who had her locked up in the 30's after her violent rampage at Annie Jennings' place? What about the doctors who ruled her unfit near the end of her life and how she was put into a nice mental ward from which her husband abducted her? What about the animal hoarding and living in squalid conditions, that's a big sign of mental illness. Not to mention pretending to be a princess (and remember, FS was declared insane in 1916)

And your sheer hatred of her is something I will never understand. pk

Even though this isn't directed specifically at me, I must say that I don't think anyone hates her. Just because people want the truth to be known, and to stop her from stealing the identity of a tragically murdered girl doesn't mean anyone 'hates' her. No one is trying to destroy her, only the ficticious myth around her, for the sake of integrity in history.

[ChatNoir]

Has anyone ever considered the fact that Anna Anderson, in spite of the fairly recent DNA results, has never LEGALLY been proven to be an impostor?
She was never LEGALLY proven to be Franzisca Schanzkowsky, she was never LEGALLY proven to be Anastasia. Who was this woman that still provokes such fights on the internet and divides supporters and opponents into two fiercely divided camps?
Personally, I think AA and AN were one and the same person. Your opinions, please!

ChatNoir

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Anastasia was not Anna Anderson. It was proven by DNA. Ernest proved AA to be a imposter. Explain your reasoning BlackCat.Grand Duke Ernest of Hesse knew AA was a fraud. AA made up a trip about 'Ernest 1916 visit to Russia', he believed that this claiment was false. He started an investigation that Anderson was actually a Polish factory worker, FS, who disappeared right before Anderson surfaced. AA and FS disapeared at the same time. In fact she was wounded from an explosion. AA was from Poland. Aunt Irene knew the woman wasn't Anastasia she believed she was a well actor. AA lacked many features and characteristics Anastasia had.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

Anastasia was not Anna Anderson. It was proven by DNA.

No, it was not proven by DNA due to the dubious chain of custody of the samples which the DNA was taken from. Therefore it has not been possible to legally prove that AN was FS.

Ernest proved AA to be a imposter.

Ernest proved nothing. Martin Knopf, a bank detective who was apparently hired by the Nachtausgabe newspaper, (but paid by Ernest of Hesse!) was visited in his office by a certain Doris Wingender who had "information" for him, and how much would it be worth? She had "recognized" her mother's former lodger from a picture in the newspaper, a picture that was nothing but a blur. As the judge later said: From this picture one could recognize anybody or nobody. But miss Wingender was paid 1500 DM for "identifying" AA as FS, something she did at the meeting at Schloss Seeon. The Duke of Leuchtenberg was the sole witness, and he soon realized that the two ladies had never met before and did not know each other.
AA's flight from the Kleist's apartment in August of 1922 was used to fit in with FS' mysterious appearance at the Wingender's, but AA was staying with Clara Marie Peuthert during those days, and Doris Wingender admitted that the mysterious visit from FS took place in spring. However, she compromised with Martin Knopf, and they said "summer". Later, in court, she produced a photo of herself in a certain suit, and then a photo of AA, allegedly wearing the same suit. A professional examination of the photos showed the suits to be different, and a belt and buttons were drawn in after the fact. Doris Wingender ended up running away from the courtroom, and that was the end of Uncle Ernie's "proof".

Explain your reasoning BlackCat.Grand Duke Ernest of Hesse knew AA was a fraud. He started an investigation that Anderson was actually a Polish factory worker, FS,

And why did he not start any investigation before AA dropped the bomb about having seen him in Russia in 1916? There was certainly enough time. And FS was not a Polish factory worker, she was a GERMAN factory worker. (See Berlin Police log.)

who disappeared right before Anderson surfaced.

She did NOT disappear right before AA surfaced. AA was fished out of the Landwehr Kanal on February 17, 1920. FS disappeared on March 9, 1920. Almost three weeks later.

AA and FS disapeared at the same time. In fact she was wounded from an explosion. AA was from Poland.

FS received no serious wounds from the explosion at the AEG. And she was not from Poland, she was from Pomerania, a part of the German empire at the time.

ChatNoir

[ChatNoir]

I remember that King Olav of Norway commented on the case in a book he was interviewed for in 1977. (He was related to the Romanovs by way of Anastasia's grandmother, who was his great aunt, and thus was Anastasia's second cousin) He said that there were few people in the family who believed Anna Anderson's claims. (Posted by Norwegianne)

This is kind of funny: His future wife, princess Märtha of Sweden, said when she first saw the Grand Duchess, whom she believed to be Tatiana: "But that is not Tatiana, that is Anastasia!" "What made you believe it was Tatiana", said Zahle, who had brought her along in his car, "it is supposed to be Anastasia." "Well," said Märhta, "it is Anastasia!"

ChatNoir

[Cumberland]

AWF, Anna Anderson WAS NOT declared insane by Doctors here or in Germany. That is a fact. There are laws governing mental health, and officially declaring someone insane. Since you are looking to maintain
"the integrity" of history (your quote), don't you feel it is rather unkind to state someone was mentally ill with the stigma of being institutionalized when that is not the entire case?


I am just trying to point out that there is a huge difference as to why a person could be in an institution, to assume everyone in one is "insane" is an insult to their dignity as a person, they may just be unable to take care of themselves as in this case, and the reason she was place there was not a declaration of insanity. Old age seniilty or dementia, or even alzheimers, is not insanity or being mentally ill, it is a deteroriation of the mind. Exhibiting eccentric or odd behavior is not a reaon to insitutionalize a person, if that was , we'd all be there..

[GlitteringTiaras]

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[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Cumberland

AWF, Anna Anderson WAS NOT declared insane by Doctors here or in Germany. That is a fact. Do you think a person should be judged insane by their behavior just because you think she or he is? There are laws governing mental health, and officially declaring someone insane.

IF she was in a mental institution as you state, in a ward, then a person who takes her from that institution without court order, as you state she was put in there under, is violating the law. Did Manahan face prison time over this? Or was she just in an nursing facility at that point in her life, there is a huge
difference.

Please get your fact correct before posting statements, "for the sake of integrity in history".

As far as I remember, Jack Manahan was removed as AA's caretaker because he was found to not be up to the task anymore. AA was therefore placed in an institution from where he "kidnapped" her. AA was declared sane, but unable to care for herself.

ChatNoir

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Personally, I think AA and AN were one and the same person. Your opinions, please!

ChatNoir

I believe that, too. And I guess there was something very fishy with Ernest of Hesse#s trip to Russia in 1916 - just lately documents emerged that proved that German agents on orders of the German emperor supported the Bolsheviks after 1916 to 1917 in order to bring the war with Russia to an end.

So maybe Ernest of Hesse had secret meetings in Russia and was afraid this would be found out, so he tried to get rid of the witness? Anna Anderson IMHO knew far to much intimate details of Russian court life - who could have told her all that?

[Cumberland]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

I believe that, too. And I guess there was something very fishy with Ernest of Hesse#s trip to Russia in 1916 - just lately documents emerged that proved that German agents on orders of the German emperor supported the Bolsheviks after 1916 to 1917 in order to bring the war with Russia to an end.

So maybe Ernest of Hesse had secret meetings in Russia and was afraid this would be found out, so he tried to get rid of the witness? Anna Anderson IMHO knew far to much intimate details of Russian court life - who could have told her all that?

I have always felt that there was something to this story. Ernest had way too much to lose if word got out that he traveled to his sister's during the war, imagine how his people would have reacted to such news. As one of the more popular monarchs in Germany, it could have cost him a great deal, including his settlement with the Hessian state, rights, priveleges, etc.

Also the fact that he took no action until she made that statement, is also suspicious in my view. I feel that he made the trip, but will the Hessian archives and his papers ever reveal such a fact?

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by Cumberland

.... I feel that he made the trip, but will the Hessian archives and his papers ever reveal such a fact?

What I have always found highly suspicious is the fact that his letters during the period when the trip may have taken place are so upbeat and he talks of things going well when they were actually suffering cataclysmic losses. He is reported as being "in the field" during this time so if his men were dying all around him it is - to say the least - an utterly bizarre thing for him to write.

As well as that, in his letters he refers to something taking nine days, but doesn't specify what. Obviously the receipient had prior knowledge of what he was talking about, but it just doesn't make sense if he was in the field. So, it would suggest that he was in fact somewhere else. If not in Russia then where - and why the need for secrecy about it?

[ChatNoir]

And just think of all the witnesses who came forward during the trial:
Prince Galatzin testified in the Hamburg court that he saw Grand Duke Ernest there in 1916.
Lahr Larski, former colonel in a Russian guards regiment, stated that he met Grand Duke Ernest in Finland in 1916, when the latter was travelling to Russia incognito, under the name of a Prince Thurn-und-Taxis.
Princess Cecilie declared on oath that "our circles knew about it even at the time."
Baroness Pilchau declared in Hamburg that her brother, Count Dimitri Kotzebue-Pilar assisted the Grand Duke in his trip in connection with his work as the counsellor to the Impereial Russian legation in Oslo, Norway.
Professor Wagner stated that he had been visiting a former friend at Tsarskoe Selo, Mr. Alexander Borodin, when the Grand Duke Ernest was there. "All sorts of things were suspected about this secret mission. I am ready to repeat this statement on oath."
Fritz von Unruh declared that he himself had helped the Grand Duke draw up the plans for the journey to Tsarskoe Selo and that those plans, in defiance of the wishes of the Kaiser, had indeed been put into effect.

ChatNoir

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter

What I have always found highly suspicious is the fact that his letters during the period when the trip may have taken place are so upbeat and he talks of things going well when they were actually suffering cataclysmic losses. He is reported as being "in the field" during this time so if his men were dying all around him it is - to say the least - an utterly bizarre thing for him to write.

As well as that, in his letters he refers to something taking nine days, but doesn't specify what. Obviously the receipient had prior knowledge of what he was talking about, but it just doesn't make sense if he was in the field. So, it would suggest that he was in fact somewhere else. If not in Russia then where - and why the need for secrecy about it?

I would love to read those letters ferrymansdaughter. Is there a book?
Lexi

[ChatNoir]

Peter Kurth mentions them in his book Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson.

ChatNoir

[cupcakes]

The picture comparison of Anna/Franziska linked a few pages back is excellent. I've always thought it was obvious that Anna was biting down on her lips (except in the early pictures!) and posing to match Anastasia photographs--and still looked 20 times more like the blurry photo of Franziska than she ever did like Anastasia.

My theory is that Gleb Botkin was behind the fraud and was the source of a lot of the "insider" details and anecdotes Anna knew. The rest she got from study. Anna conveniently "refused" to speak Anastasia's primary languages, Russian and English for several years (i.e., until she had time to learn them) and instead spoke fluent German, which Anastasia barely knew.

I have a question: I was just listening to the Nova special on Anastasia, and there is a recording of Anna speaking English (in her later years) with a very think Eastern European accent. The Romanov books I've read say that Nicholas and Alexandra both spoke English with English accents--Alexandra due to her English background and upbringing, Nicholas due to his tutoring. In fact, it was said that Nicholas could pass as a native Englishman. Nicholas and Alexandra spoke almost exclusively in English to one another and when they were both in the presence of the children. So wouldn't the children have had English accents too? Has Anna's Eastern European accent ever been discussed?

ETA: I just remembered that the children's tutor was a Yorkshireman and somebody once complained that the children spoke with Yorkshire accents, so that definitely doesn't make sense.

Also, I read Edward Radzinsky's The Last Tsar, and it seemed he had very detailed information on most, if not all of the executioners--who they were and what happened to them after the execution. Have Anna's supporters ever come up with a convincing theory as to who this "Tchaikovsky" is she claimed rescued her? I've read that nobody has ever come up with any ID on him, but I've never heard details.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by cupcakes

The picture comparison of Anna/Franziska linked a few pages back is excellent. I've always thought it was obvious that Anna was biting down on her lips (except in the early pictures!) and posing to match Anastasia photographs--and still looked 20 times more like the blurry photo of Franziska than she ever did like Anastasia.

My question is: How could she pose for photos that were not published till long after she had been photographed and happened to look just like them? And do you really think she took time to "bite her lips" before every snapshot? Look at her photos when she is smiling with the lips apart, and you will see how utterly ridiculous Annie is with her "theory". What is so funny about this, is that even staunch Franzisca supporters see the obvious likeness between AA and AN, and dream up every possible reason to deny the likeness.

My theory is that Gleb Botkin was behind the fraud and was the source of a lot of the "insider" details and anecdotes Anna knew. The rest she got from study. Anna conveniently "refused" to speak Anastasia's primary languages, Russian and English for several years (i.e., until she had time to learn them) and instead spoke fluent German, which Anastasia barely knew.

And how could Gleb Botkin have given her the insider details when he did not mee her until May 1927, long after Harriet von Rathlef-Keilmann had filled chapter after chapter with AA's memories from her childhood? And what did she study? The books that were published after she had told her memories to others?
As for Russian, she spoke it fluently already at Dalldorf according to the nurses (noted in the protocols there). And she did NOT speak fluent German, she spoke a hopelessly muddled German with a heavy Russian accent.

I have a question: I was just listening to the Nova special on Anastasia, and there is a recording of Anna speaking English (in her later years) with a very think Eastern European accent. The Romanov books I've read say that Nicholas and Alexandra both spoke English with English accents--Alexandra due to her English background and upbringing, Nicholas due to his tutoring. In fact, it was said that Nicholas could pass as a native Englishman. Nicholas and Alexandra spoke almost exclusively in English to one another and when they were both in the presence of the children. So wouldn't the children have had English accents too? Has Anna's Eastern European accent ever been discussed?

According to Gleb Botkin (who actually KNEW the real Anastasia), the children spoke Russian with an English accent and English with a Russian accent. Later in life, AA's English was tainted by her many years in Germany.

ETA: I just remembered that the children's tutor was a Yorkshireman and somebody once complained that the children spoke with Yorkshire accents, so that definitely doesn't make sense.

I don't think anybody complained over the children's Yorkshire accent, the complaint was over the bad English they were speaking.

Also, I read Edward Radzinsky's The Last Tsar, and it seemed he had very detailed information on most, if not all of the executioners--who they were and what happened to them after the execution. Have Anna's supporters ever come up with a convincing theory as to who this "Tchaikovsky" is she claimed rescued her? I've read that nobody has ever come up with any ID on him, but I've never heard details.

Her rescuer was not one of the execution squad, he was one of the regular guards who were called in to clean up after the carnage. His real name was most likely Stanislav Mishkevich.

ChatNoir

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by cupcakes

ETA: I just remembered that the children's tutor was a Yorkshireman and somebody once complained that the children spoke with Yorkshire accents, so that definitely doesn't make sense.

Apparently linguists who studied AA's accent said that it was either Russian or from a specific area of Germany - I can 't remember which one but it WASN'T Pomerania where FS came from.
They also picked up traces of Yorkshire and since Gibbes was from Yorkshire I find this incredibly intriguing. AN could have picked up her tutor's accent when she was learning English but what are the odds that FS was taught English by a Yorkshireman?

[Jo of Palatine]

I wonder about prince Philip, though. IMHO at least the males of the family knew that Anna probably was Anastasia - such information which has an influence on the reputation of a noble family is told to the next generation so they should know. As one of his sisters was married into the Hesse-family I wouldn't wonder if he knew about the truth, which is in my opinion the fact that Anna was Anastasia. Maybe he offered his DNA in the hope to set things right, but others botched the samples from Anna, so it could not be proven.