Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

Another interesting thing is that AA spoke a very bad German with a Russian accent (Sophie von Buxhoeveden, among others) while FS spoke good German.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Another interesting thing is that AA spoke a very bad German with a Russian accent (Sophie von Buxhoeveden, among others) while FS spoke good German.

Interesting you grasp onto one taken out of context thing by Bux while defaming the woman as a liar and a traitor all the time. What she said was AN knew 'a few German words'. I know a few German words, too, this really doesn't mean anything. Bux along with Gilliard, Anna V., Olga A. and Felix Y. stated AN knew Russian English and French and not GErman. AA obviously spoke good enough German to use it as her main language ALL HER LIFE, from the time she was found to her old age even after many years in the US. This sounds to me like FS, not AN.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Interesting you grasp onto one taken out of context thing by Bux while defaming the woman as a liar and a traitor all the time.

Again, please point out the post where I call Buxhoeveden a liar! Your accusations have to stop! Her accusations of betraying the IF comes from Russian files, not from me. Got it?

What she said was AN knew 'a few German words'. I know a few German words, too, this really doesn't mean anything. Bux along with Gilliard, Anna V., Olga A. and Felix Y. stated AN knew Russian English and French and not GErman. AA obviously spoke good enough German to use it as her main language ALL HER LIFE, from the time she was found to her old age even after many years in the US. This sounds to me like FS, not AN.

Yes, she said that AA knew a few German words with a heavy Russian accent. Probably the same as Anastasia knew from her lessons in Russia. And German was not her main language all her life, as soon as she landed in New York, she spoke fluent English and did so throughout the duration of her stay. And she also used it again when she moved to Charlottesville.
FS spoke good German, no English, no Russian and no French.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Again, please point out the post where I call Buxhoeveden a liar! Your accusations have to stop! Her accusations of betraying the IF comes from Russian files, not from me. Got it?

No, there is no proof she betrayed them in fact it's been disproven. You call her a liar every time you refuse to accept her denial of AA as legitimate.

Yes, she said that AA knew a few German words with a heavy Russian accent. Probably the same as Anastasia knew from her lessons in Russia.

Um, no. AN knew 'a few words', AA used German as her main functional language. The real AN would never have chosen a language she knew very few words of over three she knew very well.

And German was not her main language all her life, as soon as she landed in New York, she spoke fluent English and did so throughout the duration of her stay. And she also used it again when she moved to Charlottesville.

We'll never know just how good her coached English was in the late 20's, but even in her old age she preferred German and called her husband "Hans." People who met her in her later years said Manahan had to translate for her since, according to one, "German was her only functional language."

FS spoke good German, no English, no Russian and no French.

Sounds just like AA in 1920!

We have done this language thing to death in this thread and the language thread, let's not take off in another circle posting the same quotes. Snore.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

No, there is no proof she betrayed them in fact it's been disproven.

It has? Then you better post where and when.

You call her a liar every time you refuse to accept her denial of AA as legitimate.

Really? So my inquiries automatically makes her a liar? I think we all know who the liar is!

Um, no. AN knew 'a few words',

No, my dear. According to Buxhoeveden, AA was the one who knew a few words with a heavy Russian accent. Or are you calling her a liar?

AA used German as her main functional language. The real AN would never have chosen a language she knew very few words of over three she knew very well.

I don't think anybody could call AA's German functional until she had stayed in Germany many years. FS, on the other hand, was a German native.

We'll never know just how good her coached English was in the late 20's, but even in her old age she preferred German and called her husband "Hans." People who met her in her later years said Manahan had to translate for her since, according to one, "German was her only functional language."

What we know from Rudnev and Conrad Wahl, was that she spoke English already in the early 20's. In America she would use German when she did not want others to hear what she was talking about. The same thing in Germany, she would use English for the same purpose. When Prince Frederick addressed him in German, she said to him: Stop speaking Prussian.

to death in this thread and the language thread, let's not take off in another circle posting the same quotes. Snore.

As long as you don't get it, I will continue repeating it.

[Menarue]

Ad nauseum Chat?

[maria-olivia]

Well said Menarue ...

[ferrymansdaughter]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Even today, I have a cousin 47 years old who was conceived in an affair his mother had with the Krispy Kreme donut man while her husband was overseas with the Army, and he still doesn't know her husband isn't his father

Okay Annie 'fess up! You are making this up to give us some light relief aren't you?

[ChatNoir]

Gilliard confirmed AA's account that Anastasia had been given a regiment of her own during the war. Oddly AA did not recall the name of Anastasia's regiment. AA had in accurately stated that there had been a ceremony/parade/review when she was given her regiment and gave a few specific details indicating that she remembered the event well. Gilliard quotes Colonel Kolioubakine and and General Repiev who both served in the 148th regiment of infantry Kaspiiski and both stated that at the time that Anastasia was named Colonel in Chief to the regiment the regiment was already at the front. Colonel Kolioubakine alone was presented to Anastasia (Along with the Tsar and Empress) he also stated that monthly telegrams were sent to Anastasia updating her as to the regiments progress.

From Harriet Rathlef Keilmann:

"I believe I can clearly recollect that, on the day when I was first given command of my regiment, I myself took charge of the parade on horseback." (In a letter dated 26th January, 1926, Mr. Gilliard conmfirmed to me that what she said was perfectly true.)

There is no mentioning of the regiment being present, just some kind of ceremony. Of course, we can not verify what Gilliard wrote in his book, since all his records have been destroyed.

With regards to the photograph of the Empresses Car with the Swastika, Gillard did publish the photograph on it-though the swastika is on the hood and not the door and indeed it has been highlighted-He made two points about it.
1. Gilliard verified through Captain Schwabe that AA had infact seen the photograph in a series of photographs published by Russian Monarchist Supreme Council well before she declared this "memory" to Harriet von Rathlef Keilmann.

Actually, she declared it to Herluf Zahle.

2.AA stated clearly that it was the Empress's car that the Swastika was placed. It was not the Empress's car but in fact the Tsar's (the car had been a gift to the Tsar). The Empress herself preferred either Rolls Royce or a Renault. AA saw the photo in question which shows the Empress in the car and assumed it belonged to the Empress.

See the following:The Imperial Garage - alt.talk.royalty | Google Groups

Seems like all of the Tsar's cars had swastikas, a detail that eluded both Gilliard and Volkov.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

It has? Then you better post where and when.

The last time you asked this, I told you it had been posted many times, yes in this thread too, and I wasn't going to be baited again. I also asked you if you were playing games or had developed Alzheimer's since you ask it so many times and deny I ever mentioned it before.I feel the same way now. Look it up in some of the 100+ pages here which are mostly repeats of the same stuff anyway.

Really? So my inquiries automatically makes her a liar? I think we all know who the liar is!

Yes. You say Bux lied about AA's identity to cover the 'fact' that she was a 'traitor.' This is your excuse for the honest denial by a woman who knew the girls well.

No, my dear. According to Buxhoeveden, AA was the one who knew a few words with a heavy Russian accent. Or are you calling her a liar?

No, it was the real AN she was talking about and this was another reason she knew it wasn't her, because AA chose to speak German, even after Bux spoke to her in English!

I don't think anybody could call AA's German functional until she had stayed in Germany many years. FS, on the other hand, was a German native.

When Bux and Olga went to see AA, they both reported that she did not respond to their English, or Russian, yet she whispered questions to the nurses in German. If AA had known English or Russian, why did she do this? Answer: she didn't, she was FS and she didn't konw them.

What we know from Rudnev and Conrad Wahl, was that she spoke English already in the early 20's.

Dmitri Leuchtenberg said she knew no English until she was coached about the time of coming to Caste Seeon. This fits in with her not understanding it when visited in 1922.

In America she would use German when she did not want others to hear what she was talking about. The same thing in Germany, she would use English for the same purpose. When Prince Frederick addressed him in German, she said to him: Stop speaking Prussian.

Prussian? Sounds like the grudge of a Polish girl whose land and family titles were taken by the Prussians (like FS!)

As long as you don't get it, I will continue repeating it.

YOU are the one who refuses to 'get it' and I won't bore everyone else with the quotes again. they're all in this thread and on my site.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

The last time you asked this, I told you it had been posted many times, yes in this thread too, and I wasn't going to be baited again. I also asked you if you were playing games or had developed Alzheimer's since you ask ti so many times and deny I ever mentioned itbefore.I feel the same way now. Look it up in some of the 100+ pages here which are mostly repeats of the same stuff anyway.

As you maybe have seen, I have had no problems finding materials in old threads. The problem is: You are mistaken.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

As you maybe have seen, I have had no problems finding materials in old threads. The problem is: You are mistaken.

You have plenty of problems finding the stuff I've posted, because you keep asking the same questions. Use the search feature! If you can't find it here read the thread on the topic on AP in the "Final Chapter" section. Or better yet stop rehashing!

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

You have plenty of problems finding the stuff I've posted, because you keep asking the same questions. Use the search feature! If you can't find it here read the thread on the topic on AP in the "Final Chapter" section. Or better yet stop rehashing!

I used the search feature, and here it is:

Perhaps in an effort to spare herself from the same fate, or to guarantee her later safety, she found Rodionov, telling him not only of the fortune in jewels concealed beneath the clothing of the three young women, but also where the items could be found: "The buttons on her coat aren't buttons," she revealed, "they're diamonds"; "the aigrette of that hat conceals a diamond from the shah of Persia"; and "that belt there - underneath it are ropes of pearls." (Bykov, October 17, 1927, in TsDOOSO, f.41, op 1, d. 149.) (Tsentr dokumentatsii obshchestvennykh organizatsii Sverdlovskoi oblasti, Ekaterinburg ( formerly Sverdlovsk Party Archives.)

[Anna was Franziska]

As has been discussed before, this is inaccurate,* since the Bolsheviks had no idea there were jewels sewn into the clothing until they were taking their clothes off after the execution. This is why they were so surprised the bullets bounced off and flew around the room they didn't know about the corsets lined with jewels!Don't you think if they had known they'd have confiscated them and sold them to fund their cause? Also Bux got NO favors from the Reds, she ran for her life for over a year in fear and only snuck out of the country with the help of the British when they controlled Omsk. How many times have I told this story? But regardless of all this, AA was not AN (or Tatiana) and Bux knew it. Her denoucement was a huge blow to AA supporters, so naturally, like they did to others, they had to attack her character in an attempt to discredit her.

(*will not get into the reasons I doubt that one source, and anyway, it does not mention a name, just Mdm. X. The thread on AP I mentioned will explain it all)

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Another interesting thing is that AA spoke a very bad German with a Russian accent (Sophie von Buxhoeveden, among others) while FS spoke good German.

And for the record, I found the direct quote by Bux- it was the real AN she was talking about. You can see how a woman who knew a girl who spoke Russian, English and French and knew 'only a few German words' would suddenly choose only to converse in that one language and not know the others. Look at how she said she acted with Clara Peuthert, no wonder Bux could tell what a shameless fraud she was!


When Ms. Peuthert saw that the unknown one remained completely mute and did not show that she recognized me, she tried to attract her attention by whispering some words into her ear in German and showing photographs of the Imperial family to her. She pointed to the Empress, while saying: 'Tell me, isn't that mamma?' (Or similar words). In the end she put into her hands a copy of a Russian New Testament with ribbons of the Russian national colors. All these attempts failed, the patient remained mute and strove to hide her face with her cover or her hands. I must point out that the Grand Duchess Anastasia hardly knew any German words and that she pronounced them with a strong Russian accent."

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter

Okay Annie 'fess up! You are making this up to give us some light relief aren't you?

No I am afraid it's all too true! To make things even more outrageous and bring more comedy relief, the guy is an Elvis impersonator! Garishly dressed Las Vegas Elvis only!

[tian]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

From Harriet Rathlef Keilmann:

"I believe I can clearly recollect that, on the day when I was first given command of my regiment, I myself took charge of the parade on horseback." (In a letter dated 26th January, 1926, Mr. Gilliard conmfirmed to me that what she said was perfectly true.)

There isn't any mention of a parade in Nicholas's or Olga N's diaries on 5th June 1915.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

As has been discussed before, this is inaccurate,* since the Bolsheviks had no idea there were jewels sewn into the clothing until they were taking their clothes off after the execution. This is why they were so surprised the bullets bounced off and flew around the room they didn't know about the corsets lined with jewels!Don't you think if they had known they'd have confiscated them and sold them to fund their cause?

No, we know that the box of jewels that they had was also not taken away from them. And as I have posted before, Yurovsky knew about the jewels in the clothing.

Also Bux got NO favors from the Reds, she ran for her life for over a year in fear and only snuck out of the country with the help of the British when they controlled Omsk. How many times have I told this story? But regardless of all this, AA was not AN (or Tatiana) and Bux knew it. Her denoucement was a huge blow to AA supporters, so naturally, like they did to others, they had to attack her character in an attempt to discredit her.

So why were the others shot and Buxhoeveden let go?

And for the record, I found the direct quote by Bux- it was the real AN she was talking about. You can see how a woman who knew a girl who spoke Russian, English and French and knew 'only a few German words' would suddenly choose only to converse in that one language and not know the others. Look at how she said she acted with Clara Peuthert, no wonder Bux could tell what a shameless fraud she was!

All witnesses who describe AA's German, said it was "faulty" "words strung together" "total disdain for grammar" "heavy Russian accent". Sounds like something Anastasia would have spoken.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by tian

There isn't any mention of a parade in Nicholas's or Olga N's diaries on 5th June 1915.

Thank you, Tian. What exactly does the diary say about Anastasia getting her own regiment?

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

No, we know that the box of jewels that they had was also not taken away from them. And as I have posted before, Yurovsky knew about the jewels in the clothing.

They confiscated anything they found, they got Olga's gun. They did NOT know about the jewels in the clothing until the execution was over. This is evident in all accounts, including Yurovsky's.

So why were the others shot and Buxhoeveden let go?

For the hundreth time: SHE WAS MISTAKEN FOR A SWEDE DUE TO HER NAME (which was Danish) and they weren't taking foreign nationals in fear of angering other countries. She was put out with Gilliard (Swiss) and Gibbes (British) and they didn't want to leave the family! Now I know your next line 'what about Schneider' I don't know why she alone with a foreign name was not let go. But Bux was let go with Gibbes and Gilliard and they certainly didn't 'betray' anyone. The group including Bux and the two tutors was told to leave Ekaterinburg or be killed, so they did still have a chance of being killed. They did hang around awhile, in fear of their lives, sneaking around the house area, and saw Nagorny getting taken away. And of course spent the next year running for their lives with NO favors from any Reds.One other shot against this theory is that she did not want to be separated from the family, and that she- and none of the others- had any idea anyone would be killed at that time so 'saving your skin' was not on anyone's mind!

All witnesses who describe AA's German, said it was "faulty" "words strung together" "total disdain for grammar" "heavy Russian accent". Sounds like something Anastasia would have spoken.

"All?" Like who? That's not what I read, no one significant, no one who knew AN well. AA's accent was NOT Russian. A woman on another forum said her husband was Russian and he told her it sounded Polish. Others describe it as 'germanic' or undeterminable. She DID use German all her life as her language of preference, this is well documented. This fits right in with what FS would do, not AN. Just hang up the language argument, you lose.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

They confiscated anything they found, they got Olga's gun. They did NOT know about the jewels in the clothing until the execution was over. This is evident in all accounts, including Yurovsky's.

And as I posted earlier, Yurovsky was the one who wrote that the jewels in the clothing bothered him no end. And where is your source?

For the hundreth time: SHE WAS MISTAKEN FOR A SWEDE DUE TO HER NAME (which was Danish) and they weren't taking foreign nationals in fear of angering other countries.

No, her name was German. And again, what is your source?

"All?" Like who?

First of all the Berlin Police who called her "the unknown Russian woman" due to her accent. Second, Harriet Rathlef Keilmann, who said that she had that hard Russian emphasis on the last syllables. The duke of Leuchtenberg said her German was so faulty that it was clear that it was not her first language. Tatiana Botkin said that it was hard to understand her, even a funny story about her cat she could not tell properly due to lack of grammar and vocabulary, it was just words strung together. Dr. Eitel was also amazed at her small vocabulary and total disdain for grammar and classification of nouns. The same thing was said by Felix Dassel. Of course, after many years in Germany, she learned to write and speak it somewhat well, but her written German contained many mistakes.