A potential bride for The Grand Duke Georgi

[COUNTESS]

He doesn't have to give up the throne for the woman he loves, the throne gave him up 100 years ago. He has no throne. Nor, most probably, ever will. He just has a title and a job. All the rest is pretention.

[duke of poliganc]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

He doesn't have to give up the throne for the woman he loves, the throne gave him up 100 years ago. He has no throne. Nor, most probably, ever will. He just has a title and a job. All the rest is pretention.

i was talking generally not specifically about georgi but about the idea that any royal can't be happily married unless he marries a untitled man/lady when there is a lot of examples that show royals who married other royals and titled people that are happily married i can give you another example from my country the last king married a commoner and there were never a rule in the egyptian royal family about having to marry dynastically but that marriage ended in divorce and actually their son and heir married a royal princess from another country and is happily married .

[AristoCat]

^AT LONG LAST!

I am more than a little fed up with the 'fairytale' where the only happy marriage among roaylty is how the woman in question HAS to be untitled and how titled women are cold as ice elitist wenches who will only make the prince in question bitterly unhappy and how the world can only function with a 'star crossed lover' match. How only a commoner can make a prince or aristocrat happy.

These days reigning princes marry the untitled as a matter of course.

[Countessmeout]

I totally agree with the sick and tired of Cinderekka syndrome.

But I also don't think marriage to a fellow royal automatically means happiness either. There are plenty of unhappy marriages and divorces that way too.

The problem I have is the rule that they Must marry an aristocrat. I have nothing against it. And yes, I think they could find love with a nice princess or such. But it doesn't work out that way for every one.

It's not some Disney story, prince having to give it all up.... There are many like George who do face it. They may luck out and find an aristocratic woman to fall in love with and marry. But they may also find a woman with no title who they want to be with. And you end up with either giving up your title or not marrying. Gustaf and Carina are a sad example.

Best that such laws are done away with and heirs marry a suitable bride on Her and not on her family.

We see marriages of equality in these royaks often becayse they move in the sane circles. They socialize and it's not surprising many would date and marry. The reigning royal houses seem to move in more common circles, save official events. The British royals are a great example but not only. The Yorks, and at times Harry, are the ones who regularily move in them.

[AristoCat]

I'm sick of how titles are automatically seen as elitist and bad and those who hold them as a bunch of out of touch lazy snobs. Each 'fairytale' isn't complete without the evil snotty aristocrat who is unskilled and a leech and looking for a higher up title to climb the ladder. As if a an untitled commoner is the only one capable of loving a prince for who he is as a person.

I think a major problem is that everyone is looking for drama and constant excitement and if I were royal I would want someone who would fit in seamlessly and not bring any confusion or culture clash or not being accepted. I would want someone who is fully ready and not feeling like an outsider or uncomfortable.

What I admire about Mathilde and (former) Countess Stephanie of Luxembourg is that there isn't any drama in their background and there isn't any major scandals. Just seamless acceptance and seamless move into the role/marriage. Guillaume and Phillipe chose right and I admire how uneventful the marriage seems to be outside of their public life.

[Countessmeout]

And yet happy to paint anyone of common birth as a social climbing Cinderella who brings drama.

Being of aristocratic blood makes you no more or no less suitable to be a royal spouse. They certainly come with their own share of drama and sketchy family.

Not all aristocratic brides are idealic brides. Not all commoners are social climbing drama queens. You can't protest one stereotype while forcing the other.

There is nothing wrong with a titled bride. If a prince falls in love eith a princess great. But he shouldn't be forced to marry someone becayse the archaic belief that blood is the only thing that matters.

[AristoCat]

Just as of late the pendulum makes it out that Cinderella is automatically all good and a titled type is all bad.

[Duc_et_Pair]

It does not matter what we -outsiders- think of marriage requirements. It matters what Georg/Georgy thinks. When he thinks that a partner which does not meet the Russian or the Prussian requirements is no any problem, then that is his choice. We may assume that he will have overseen what it means. His mother's and his grandfather's stance was always that they were not only the most senior agnatic line of the Romanov dynasty, they were also the only ones which tried to comply with the requirements for a befitting partner. All this pretension will collapse when Georg/Georgy marries the girl-next-door. All okay if he chooses so and the possible consequences will be his.

Recent weeks saw the deaths of Richard Prinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and of Niclas Friherre Silfverschiöld. Both were blueblooded partners which enjoyed long and happy marriages with a Princess, provided them a traditional life on their ancestral castles. So it is not exactly so that all marriages with a titled person are like being imprisoned for life.

[duke of poliganc]

Originally Posted by AristoCat

What I admire about Mathilde and (former) Countess Stephanie of Luxembourg is that there isn't any drama in their background and there isn't any major scandals. Just seamless acceptance and seamless move into the role/marriage. Guillaume and Phillipe chose right and I admire how uneventful the marriage seems to be outside of their public life.

Sophie, Hereditary Princess of Liechtenstein also in the same category .

[Arrjann]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

It does not matter what we -outsiders- think of marriage requirements. It matters what Georg/Georgy thinks. When he thinks that a partner which does not meet the Russian or the Prussian requirements is no any problem, then that is his choice. We may assume that he will have overseen what it means. His mother's and his grandfather's stance was always that they were not only the most senior agnatic line of the Romanov dynasty, they were also the only ones which tried to comply with the requirements for a befitting partner. All this pretension will collapse when Georg/Georgy marries the girl-next-door. All okay if he chooses so and the possible consequences will be his.

I think the issue here is that Maria Wladimirovna's main criticism of other Romanovs is that they are the issue of morganatic marriages; permitting her son to marry a woman of unequal rank would mean that she can't use that argument anymore. I guess he will have the same problem on his Prussian side. He's in the same position as his cousin Georg Friedrich of Prussia (who, as we all know, found a princess).

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

That Prussian requirements were lower: a Gräfin zu Castell-Rüdenhausen, a Prinzessin von Schönaich-Carolath, a Prinzessin von Ysenburg, all acceptable. But would these be acceptable too for a Russian Grand-Prince?

One of the Romanov descendants married a Countess Praskiova Dmitrievna Sheremeteva, another Romanov descendant married a Princess Natalia Alexandrovna Golitsyna, etc. and they were considered not befitting the rank and the status of Russian Grand-Prince. The same doubts were around Georg/Georgy's own grandmother Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Mukhrani.

Until 1918 a Castell-Rüdenhausen and Ysenburg would be possible (would be equal but would likely considered a misalliance) , but a Prinzessin von Schönaich-Carolath would not because only mediatized families count in Russia.

Here is what Prince Nikolai Romanov said about possible marriage of "non-equal" and "equal" marriage examples:

"Russia, with its very Germanic notion of dynastic propriety, found itself accepting all the Almanach de Gotha rulings.
And so if some unfortunate Russian Grand Duke wanted to marry a Princess Obolensky, descendant of the Grand Dukes of Kiev, who reigned in Russia, at the time his Romanov ancestors were probably still lurking in the woods, draped in pelts or wading through the marshes of East Prussia or Pomerania, he would have had to change his plans.
That marriage would have been impossible, but an Austrian lady, say a daughter of an Illustrious Highness, Count von Harrach zu Rohrau und Thannhausen, lord of the county of Rohrau, Freiherr zu Prugg und Pürrhenstein, lord of Starkenbach, Jilenice, Sadowa & Storckow, would have been acceptable!"

[Duc_et_Pair]

Well... For all that Germanic attitude: the illustrious Romanovs of course are the "German" Holstein-Gottorps, going to become Hohenzollerns in Maria's lineage... A swoosh of Russian blood into the Romanov lineage would do no harm, I would say... Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Mukhranskaya was "acceptable" so maybe this has stretched the requirements a bit.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Marc23

Until 1918 a Castell-Rüdenhausen and Ysenburg would be possible (would be equal but would likely considered a misalliance) , but a Prinzessin von Schönaich-Carolath would not because only mediatized families count in Russia.

Here is what Prince Nikolai Romanov said about possible marriage of "non-equal" and "equal" marriage examples:

"Russia, with its very Germanic notion of dynastic propriety, found itself accepting all the Almanach de Gotha rulings.
And so if some unfortunate Russian Grand Duke wanted to marry a Princess Obolensky, descendant of the Grand Dukes of Kiev, who reigned in Russia, at the time his Romanov ancestors were probably still lurking in the woods, draped in pelts or wading through the marshes of East Prussia or Pomerania, he would have had to change his plans.
That marriage would have been impossible, but an Austrian lady, say a daughter of an Illustrious Highness, Count von Harrach zu Rohrau und Thannhausen, lord of the county of Rohrau, Freiherr zu Prugg und Pürrhenstein, lord of Starkenbach, Jilenice, Sadowa & Storckow, would have been acceptable!"

But there was never a marriage to a Countess/Princess from a mediatized Family. Neither during the time Russia was still a Monarchys and also not afterwards. Only tp Princesses from other reigning or former reigning families.
I think what makes things even more difficult for Georgi is that his wife has to be orthodox or she has to convert to the orthodox faith. If she is catholic/protestant it is not enough if she agress to raise the children orthodox like it was the case in the Prussia/Isenburg where Sophie remained cahtholic but the children are raised protestant.

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by Stefan

But there was never a marriage to a Countess/Princess from a mediatized Family. Neither during the time Russia was still a Monarchys and also not afterwards. Only tp Princesses from other reigning or former reigning families.

Yes, but under the rules mediatized Princesses would technically be "good enough" if the monarch approves it, but it would be considered a misalliance.

There was Russia/Leuchtenberg case where Leuchtenberg family wasn't even mediatized, but the marriage was with the approval of the Emperor considered equal, but in the eyes of rest of the Imperial family it was considered a misalliance.

Prince Nicholas just talked how the sistem worked and who would be considered "good enough" and who would not.

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Well... For all that Germanic attitude: the illustrious Romanovs of course are the "German" Holstein-Gottorps, going to become Hohenzollerns in Maria's lineage... A swoosh of Russian blood into the Romanov lineage would do no harm, I would say... Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Mukhranskaya was "acceptable" so maybe this has stretched the requirements a bit.

Yes, but she was considered "acceptable" by some just because she was from the collateral elder branch of the Georgian last royal family.

So, it leaves the door open for some kind of arguments.

[Duc_et_Pair]

I am not sure a conversion to the Orthodox faith is an absolute requirement. Maria Vladimirovna's own great-grandfather Vladimir Alexandrovich Romanov married Marie Duchess von Mecklenburg-Schwerin who remained Lutheran. That marriage was seen as dynastic.

Their children were dynasts:
- Cyrill Vladimirovich (married Princess Victoria Melita von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha) - direct ancestors of Maria and Georg(y).
- Boris Vladimirovich (contracted a non-dynastic marriage)
- Andrey Vladimirovich (contracted a non-dynastic marriage)
- Elena Vladimirovna (married Prince Nicholas of Greece and Denmark)

[Duc_et_Pair]

All by all the most obvious candidate to me seems HRH Princess Theodora of Greece and Denmark, youngest daughter of HM King Constantine of the Hellenes, Prince of Greece and Denmark and of HM Queen Anne-Marie of the Hellenes born Princess of Denmark.

Theodora is full royalborn, her father is a former reigning monarch and her mother is a Princess of a reigning Royal House. She is unmarried, 33 years old ánd Orthodox.

Picture: http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/9ed2193f87...and-d6e23m.jpg

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

I am not sure a conversion to the Orthodox faith is an absolute requirement. Maria Vladimirovna's own great-grandfather Vladimir Alexandrovich Romanov married Marie Duchess von Mecklenburg-Schwerin who remained Lutheran. That marriage was seen as dynastic.

Their children were dynasts:
- Cyrill Vladimirovich (married Princess Victoria Melita von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha) - direct ancestors of Maria and Georg(y).
- Boris Vladimirovich (contracted a non-dynastic marriage)
- Andrey Vladimirovich (contracted a non-dynastic marriage)
- Elena Vladimirovna (married Prince Nicholas of Greece and Denmark)

It's an requierement for the Tsar and the Tsarevich so the first in line of succession. At the time Grand Duke Vladimir married Duchess Marie he was the second son of the then Tsar and had an older brother with several sons. So it was not necessary for his bride to convert. But Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna later converted when her husband and son's moved higher in the succession

Originally Posted by Marc23

There was Russia/Leuchtenberg case where Leuchtenberg family wasn't even mediatized, but the marriage was with the approval of the Emperor considered equal, but in the eyes of rest of the Imperial family it was considered a misalliance.

But that was the marriage of a Grand Duchess and her children had no succession rights in Russia. What i meant is that there was never a marriage of a Grand Duke to a member of a mediatized House where the marriage was approved as dynastic.

[vkrish]

Duc, The way you sometimes fully describe the status of a royal person, I feel,when the said royal hears it, she/she will be like "OMG I am thatttt much royal..!!! Really?"

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by vkrish

Duc, The way you sometimes fully describe the status of a royal person, I feel,when the said royal hears it, she/she will be like "OMG I am thatttt much royal..!!! Really?"

This forum is called Royal Forums and yes, more royal than Theodora, her siblings and her Spanish cousins (Queen Sofía is Theodora's aunt) will be hard to find.

I have no idea how royals themselves will see their ancestry. Publicly they will always downplay it but in subtility of course they know it. Dora Smith will not appear at Amalienborg Palace wearing a diamond diadem. Theodora of Greece and Denmark will.

But for me: if actually being "royal" has no any meaning to me, I believe I am on the wrong forum...