A potential bride for The Grand Duke Georgi

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by NGalitzine

^^^^^Which lady is she, the strapless or the one with the jacket?

Rebecca is the girl in the strapless dress. The one with the jacket is Micaela Di Gianlorenzo.

Just to give an idea what sort of a gathering it was, other guests included Princess Natalia Strozzi, Princess Federica de Gregorio Cattaneo di Sant Elia, Marchioness Paola Livia Carrelli Palombi di Montrone, Count Ettore de Cesbron de la Gennalais, and quite a few other nobles.

[NGalitzine]

What will poor momma say? Not of equal birth? Not Orthodox? What about rich?

Better have the smelling salts nearby and the doctor on call if he ever pops the question.

[Biri]

Georgi is adult and the right to make his own decisions.

[Al_bina]

The lady in question seems lovely. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna may be displeased with the choice, but any parent can do nothing about it. If Grand Duke Georgii proposes and she accepts the proposal, I wonder whether or not the couple is going to follow the tradition, i.e. renouncing the faith and changing name.

[la vie en rose]

Originally Posted by Lenora

Thank You for information!
As I understand she's Italian.
Does she have any noble background?

I think she does, on her mother's side for sure. not sure about her father's side.

I found on the internet that she is part of ADSI (Associazione Dimore Storiche Italiane member of the Historic European Houses) apparently you need to be noble to be part of that association, that's why I think she is noble.

Moreover I found a document according to which she is not just member of ADSI but is also deleguée of the association for young people. Infact she seems to be the organizator of a big young noble reunion of ADSI held in Rome in 2008.

If you google Rebecca Bettarini ADSI you'll find the programme of the reunion which includes lunches and private visits to the most beautiful castles and palaces in Rome! The programme sais that visitors have been received by the owners of the palaces and castles (Prince Colonna, Princesse Odescalchi, Aldobrandini). Definitely not something a commoner could do! And who knows, maybe Grand Duke George was there as well....

[Artemisia]

I think you are right about her mother, but she doesn't have a noble ancestry on her father's side (at least, not in the last 2-3 generations).
In order to be a member of ADSI, you have to proven royal/noble/aristocratic ancestry, but not necessarily be one yourself.

[BeatrixFan]

When you think about it, Grand Duchess Maria has no reason to be at all unhappy with her son's choice if he chooses to marry her. Maria can do what monarchs throughout the years have done to make potential commoner brides of equal status - before the wedding, the girl converts to Orthodoxy and Maria creates her a Grand Duchess in her own right. Problem solved.

[Artemisia]

The problem would not be solved, not from Romanov Marriage Laws point of view.
In order for the marriage to be considered equal, the bride must come from a royal house (usually, a reigning one).
The Grand Duchess may ennoble Georgi's bride of choice, but that wouldn't make the marriage equal; it'd still be considered morganatic.

[MAfan]

Originally Posted by la vie en rose

I think she does, on her mother's side for sure. not sure about her father's side.

I found on the internet that she is part of ADSI (Associazione Dimore Storiche Italiane member of the Historic European Houses) apparently you need to be noble to be part of that association, that's why I think she is noble.

Originally Posted by Artemisia

In order to be a member of ADSI, you have to proven royal/noble/aristocratic ancestry, but not necessarily be one yourself.

Actually the website of the ADSI just says that in order to be a member one just has to be the owner or the beneficial owner of a historic mansion; it doesn't mention that members have to be of noble descent. It also says that legal persons can be member of the ADSI, and they hardly can be of noble descent.

[Artemisia]

That's interesting; thanks for clarifying MAfan!
I was under the impression that a noble/aristocratic ancestry was a must.

[BeatrixFan]

Originally Posted by Artemisia

The problem would not be solved, not from Romanov Marriage Laws point of view.
In order for the marriage to be considered equal, the bride must come from a royal house (usually, a reigning one).
The Grand Duchess may ennoble Georgi's bride of choice, but that wouldn't make the marriage equal; it'd still be considered morganatic.

But Maria is head of the Imperial Family. She can change the marriage laws as much or as little as she likes. The other lot won't like it of course but when have they ever approved of anything they weren't earning from?

[Nice Nofret]

I miss the word 'IF' in the first sentence .
I understand it is disputed that she is the head of the former Imperial Family ... anyway it's all hypothetical ... there is no Imperial Family anymore

[BeatrixFan]

Not quite. As long as there are people to consider Maria the Head of the Imperial Family, it exists and she's the boss. That's how monarchy works.

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

But Maria is head of the Imperial Family. She can change the marriage laws as much or as little as she likes. The other lot won't like it of course but when have they ever approved of anything they weren't earning from?

Any change of law (not merely customs or traditions) would require Parliament's (Duma's) approval. And therein is the problem; Russian Parliament (legal successor of the Soviet one, which was the legal successor of the Imperial one) is highly unlikely to do that.

The Grand Duchess may bend the rules somewhat (as her father did, announcing Princess Leonida to be his equal), but she can't actually change them all that easily.

[BeatrixFan]

Well, that depends on how far Maria wants to take her powers as a monarch in exile. She could submit a request to the Russian government (who knows, they may play ball for a bit of positive press, "We're connecting with our past") but really there's no need. Nicholas II ruled for so long without a parliament making decisions affecting the family that Maria would only be following precedent if she did the same.

[TomBert]

Grand Duchess Maria has already stated that any change she might make to the succession laws would require the blessing of the Orthodox Church. The Succession Laws are not laws of the Russian Federation, so I can't imagine the Duma would be at all interested in providing a legislative solution to support the Grand Duchess. I imagine recognising old laws as dormant rather than non-existant could open up a can of constitutional worms best left alone, so perhaps they could do something similar to Montenegro and enact new legislation.

[Nice Nofret]

Originally Posted by Artemisia

Any change of law (not merely customs or traditions) would require Parliament's (Duma's) approval. And therein is the problem; Russian Parliament (legal successor of the Soviet one, which was the legal successor of the Imperial one) is highly unlikely to do that.

The Grand Duchess may bend the rules somewhat (as her father did, announcing Princess Leonida to be his equal), but she can't actually change them all that easily.

There is no legal LAW regarding whom Georgi can marry or not! It is only a 'Houselaw' of the former imperial family. Houselaws can be changed easily - by the House it concerns.

You wouldn't find a law concerning that in the russian legislation - for them, there is no more russian imperial family - with or without pretensions to an non excisting throne.

My family regards ME as the boss - that doesn't make me the imperess of Switzerland - it needs a bit more than 'some people regarding s.o. as boss'

Otherwise Christoph Blocher would be King of Switzerland by now ( ugh what an ugly thought)

[BeatrixFan]

And yet we see Maria received by church officials, Putin etc in her capacity as Head of the Imperial Family thus giving legitimacy to the institution whether it reigns or not.

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Nice Nofret

There is no legal LAW regarding whom Georgi can marry or not! It is only a 'Houselaw' of the former imperial family.

You are right that the laws regarding marriage are House Laws only. However, the house laws of some countries form (or formed) a section of the actual laws of the country. The Russian and Austrian Empires both had that, as do Monaco and Liechtenstein now.

In order for the law (even if it's just house law) to be changed, the Russian Empire must first be reinstated, and only then Imperial House Laws can be altered. Alternatively, the Government of the Russian Federation could, upon request of the Grand Duchess, attempt such amendment, although personally I don't see that happening. The reason the current Russian Government may be eligible to do that is because, as I already mentioned, is a legal successor of the Soviet Union, itself a legal successor of the Russian Empire.

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

And yet we see Maria received by church officials, Putin etc in her capacity as Head of the Imperial Family thus giving legitimacy to the institution whether it reigns or not.

I do not deny that, BeatrixFan. In fact, I'm glad you pointed out the fact since I personally am a supporter of the Grand Duchess.

[Nice Nofret]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

And yet we see Maria received by church officials, Putin etc in her capacity as Head of the Imperial Family thus giving legitimacy to the institution whether it reigns or not.

Putin doesn't do it with the view to give any credentials to Maria, but give himself some sort of royal aura.

Putin is only selfserving - it has no legal bearing whatsoever.