A potential bride for The Grand Duke Georgi - Page 17

NGalitzine · #**321** 12-21-2011, 01:46 PM

True, but it would still open up old wounds and questions about Marias own disputed claims to headship. If he cannot find the perfect princess bride maybe it would be best to acknowledge the other Romanovs in advance of his selecting a non-equal marriage partner.

Ceallach · #**322** 12-21-2011, 01:56 PM

Where does it say that the mother's title can only outway the father's if they are monarch? Princess Astrid's children are first and foremost called Prince/ss of Belgium and she is not the heir. They have an HRH from mom and a HIRH from dad. Many inherit titles from both parents especially since many have changed succession laws.

As far as I know only Russia and Brazil only require marriage to another royal.

The Brazilians as a result have the same issue - elder son disinherited for marrying russian noble but disputed it and his heir still claims throne. Younger son married Bavarian princess made heir and his son is married to Princess of Ligne which is meditized and acceptable. The first family says a Princess of Ligne should be not be ok, while Russian noble is not. Yet it is, cause Russian noble were never mediatized. No matter who Georgi marries there will be someone making an issue of it but it will not mean it is not a credible match - Maria determines that.

Sorry not Russian czech noble.

NGalitzine · #**323** 12-21-2011, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ceallach

Where does it say that the mother's title can only outway the father's if they are monarch? Princess Astrid's children are first and foremost called Prince/ss of Belgium and she is not the heir. They have an HRH from mom and a HIRH from dad. Many inherit titles from both parents especially since many have changed succession laws.

The lady you are promoting is a Princess Galitzine, not HIH Archduchess of Austria.

AristoCat · #**324** 12-21-2011, 03:29 PM

I still think that even if she isn't 'royalty' in the usual sense, a princess is still a princess and that things should work better that way. Is Georgi supposed to just suddenly end up marrying a foreign princess, leaving his children with next to no Russian blood, but sitting on the Imperial Throne?

NGalitzine · #**325** 12-21-2011, 04:29 PM

^^^
That pretty much how it works. The princely noble families of Russia are I suppose more akin to a British duke in the sense that they are the top end of the nobility in the former Russian Empire but were not royalty. A princess is in this case not the same as a princess from a reigning or a mediatised house. It also explains why most of the reigning European royal families are of largely German blood lines because there were so many petty German courts who could supply brides who were of suitable birth and also willing to change religions if need be. Today the only way "national bloodlines" are being brought back into the reigning dynasties is because some heirs (UK, Norway, Sweden,Spain are examples) have chosen to marry citizens of their own nations.

**MAfan** · #**326** 12-21-2011, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ceallach

Unlike the Romanovs who married Galitzines, Maria Anna of Austria is still HIRH Maria Anna of Austria. She did not lose status for her marriage to a galitzine since Austria considers marriages to nobles acceptable not morgantic. So she and her children are dynasts of Austria, unlike the Romanovs who married Galitzines who are not dynasts of Russia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ceallach

The Austria royal/galitzines are members of the Austria royal family the same way Peter and Zara Philips are members of the British royal family, and the Belgian-Austrians were members of the Belgian royal family before they got titles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ceallach

Austria (and Belgium) has a different system than Russia where marriage to a noble such as a Galitzine is acceptable not morgantic and you do not lose status. Mariia Anna's mother was also a russian noble and her and her siblings are HIRH and her brother's children are HIRH. Her daughters could be officially raised to HIRH Princess Tatiana/Alexandra/Maria Galitzine, Archduchess of Austria just like their cousins by a Archduke Karl though proclomation or succession change. The reason they presently do not have is not because of the sex of their parent (a situation many royal families have or are changing) and not cause their mother married a noble and lost status for her and her children (such as is the case in Russia).

The four Galitzine sisters are not members nor dynasts of the Imperial House of Austria. Their mother was born an Archduchess of Austria, they are related to the Austrian Imperial Family, but they aren't members of that family. (In the same way, Peter and Zara Phillips are indeed the grandchildren of the British Sovereign and children of the Princess Royal, but they aren't members of the British Royal Family.)
The only way they have for becoming Imperial and Royal Highnesses and Archduchesses of Austria (apart from marrying and Archduke) is that all the male members and several female members of the Imperial Family die, so that Maria Anna remains as the nearest member of the Family to Archduke Karl, then she becomes Head of the Imperial House and her children are raised to Imperial and Royal Highnesses and Archdukes of Austria.
It is highly unlikely (and imo totally out of the question) that Archduke Karl raises the descendants of Archduchesses to the rank of Archdukes/Archduchesses.
And however, they would still remain Princesses Galitzine, so part of the problem would still remain.

branchg · #**327** 12-21-2011, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AristoCat

I still think that even if she isn't 'royalty' in the usual sense, a princess is still a princess and that things should work better that way. Is Georgi supposed to just suddenly end up marrying a foreign princess, leaving his children with next to no Russian blood, but sitting on the Imperial Throne?

Well, traditionally, that's what most of the royal dynasties of Europe did for centuries. They were always forbidden to marry a commoner or a subject and had to marry equally, which usually meant finding a German princess since there were so many kingdoms, duchies, grand duchies, etc. with eligible brides.

As far as Russian blood goes, Georgi and his mother have almost no Russian blood in their veins. Like most royals, they are primarily German in bloodline.

Ceallach · #**328** 12-21-2011, 08:46 PM

My point being that they could get a title without alot of people dying because it has happened before through changes to succession or like Ena of Battenberg - having one person given a title to make a marriage happen. You can do this to a relative and it is a legitimate thing to do. It may seem far fetched, but it may take something like that happening in order for Georgi to find a royal bride.

The only way he can marry a royal in the near future with russian blood is if either the Karl of Austria or Michael of Romania raise the staus of the Galitzines or Karina; get someone with Russian blood to convert such as Aglae of Baden or Sophie of Holstein; marry his second cousin Ines of Georgia or convince Princess Theodora to give up acting and marry him cause as a far as I can tell those 2 are the only ones over 20 of those with and without royal blood who presently would not either have to convert to Orthodox (Georgian/Greek to Russian not so big a deal) or have their family raise their rank. Otherwise he needs to wait for the teenage Eastern princesses to grow up and hope for the best: Maria of Serbia, or Maria-Olimpia of Grecce with russian blood, or Mafalda and Olimpia of Bulgaria who are without russian blood.

This is why russia has all the morgantic marriages; and those that aren't seem more like business deals. Not alot of choice.

Cause without someone making a change - as things stand now - the only girls he can marry are Ines and Theodora.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...oot-10028.html

Queen Elisabeth and Philip are second cousins, as are Aimone and Olga of Aosta, and Carl Christian and Marie Astrid (Luxembourg) of Austria. Also a common thing of the past.
If they are ok with it - then HRH Ines of Bagration is the most likely bride and she should have some russian in her ancestry, but no german, but her grandmother was a Bavarian/Spanish royal too.

obviously the bavarian is german, i meant to say the Georgian part would have no german.

NGalitzine · #**329** 12-21-2011, 09:58 PM

A lot of German princesses would likely have a Russian Grand Duchess lurking somewhere in their family tree. Russian ancestry is not the requirement,however nice that may be, the requirement is appropriate birth rank. A Bagration would reopen questions of their suitability since they were merged into the Russian aristocracy and many people dispute whether Leonida was of equal rank when she married into the Imperial Family. She did of course have the advantage of having some money via her first husband.

Ceallach · #**330** 12-21-2011, 10:00 PM

But are the Germans so willing nowadays to become Orthodox?

NGalitzine · #**331** 12-21-2011, 10:14 PM

^^^^
Best he finds one first.

AceOfSpades · #**332** 12-21-2011, 10:14 PM

Isn't one of the "conditions" of the Pauline Laws that in order for an HIH Grand Duke/Duchess of Russia to marry - that not only does the match have to be equal, but also has to be able to proven that the equality reaches back 8 generations on each parents genealogical family trees? Maybe I'm mistaken about this, but I could swear that I read that on this forum? Please correct this post if that's the case ..

NGalitzine · #**333** 12-21-2011, 10:19 PM

Possible but I dont believe so, they accepted the Leuchtenbergs after all. I think it is really just the status of the bride and her family and their ranking in the Gotha. Doubt if they would be put off by a mere countess in the background as long as her own family laws allowed it.

Ceallach · #**334** 12-21-2011, 10:29 PM

That is true. Leonida's mother was a polish countess - the other Romanovs would have brought up the eight generations thing with Leonida if that was the case.

branchg · #**335** 12-21-2011, 10:47 PM

No, that is not a requirement under the Pauline Laws. It is the birth status of the bride that matters.

Leonida is a whole other issue. There is no way Vladimir's marriage would have been accepted by a reigning Tsar as equal because the Bagration-Moukhranis were always nobility under the Russian Empire and a cadet line under the Gruzinsky Tsars of Georgia. They were not granted the rank and status of Prince/Princess of Georgia under the Treaty either.

Marc23 · #**336** 12-22-2011, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AceOfSpades

Isn't one of the "conditions" of the Pauline Laws that...the equality reaches back 8 generations on each parents genealogical family trees?

I don't think so...As someone said-there is the the Leuchtenberg case,but there is also later a Montenegro case(apart from being daughters of the Prince,later King,Princesses of Montenegro had no noble ancestry in European sense of the word) and there is a Serbian case when Prince Ioann of Russia married equally HRH Princess Helena of Serbia who also can't claim 8 nearest ancestors being all equal,or even noble...in European sense,of course,as their untitled ancestors were local "nobility"...

Quote:

Originally Posted by branchg

As far as Russian blood goes, Georgi and his mother have almost no Russian blood in their veins. Like most royals, they are primarily German in bloodline.

Well,Princess Leonida has descended from Dolgorukow family,so she has a bit of Russian blood...apart from her mainly Georgian and Polish blood Leonida has also some German blood from Baltic area...

Ceallach · #**337** 12-22-2011, 12:26 PM

I think that since Leonida's nephew Georgi, and now his son David have been officially recognized by Georgia as the would-be kings of Georgia, that is less of an issue now. It may reopen an issue, but it is one they have weathered before and has not prevented Maria from being considered by most, except certain relatives, as the would-be Tsarina. Any fuss made over Ines would be ignored as it is an issued that would be seen as settled. Where as another girl would probably come with her own new issues for Georgi unless he convinces Theodora to give up acting or waits for one of the other eastern European princess to grow up. She also comes with more royal blood than Leonida through her grandmother who was a Bavarian princess/Enfanta of Spain.

branchg · #**338** 12-22-2011, 02:02 PM

I agree Leonida's status is less of an issue now, especially given the fact that she is a princess of a formerly reigning house that is now recognized in Georgia as royal, in comparison to Vladimir's cousins who most definitely married Russian nobles that were subjects of the Tsar for centuries.

Georgi has to marry equally to strengthen the Vladimirovchi's claim in the future.

Marc23 · #**339** 12-23-2011, 10:18 AM

We view things in a same way...also when registering after their wedding Emperor Nicholas suggested that Konstantin Bagration,the bridegroom of Tatiana Konstantinovna,signes the wedding register as "Prince Gruzinsky" (i.e. "Prince of Georgia") and assured Grand Duke Konstantin that "they would never look upon her marriage to Bagration as morganatic,because this House, like the House of Orleans, is descended from a once ruling dynasty."

branchg · #**340** 12-23-2011, 11:21 AM

Nicholas was fond of Grand Duke Constantine and Tatiana, but he did not accept her marriage as equal. She renounced her rights to the throne beforehand and he issued a decree confirming her style would be HH Princess Tatiana Bagration-Mouhkrani (she retained her rank as a Highness).

It was a marriage of good standing for a princess of the blood far from the succession.