2009 Identification of the remains found in July 2007

[BorisRom]

Izvestia.ru July, 17
http://gazeta.ruschudo.ru/news/news182471 (In Russian, in reduction, in my translation)
In Moscow patriarchy are surprised by the hasty announcement in mass-media about what the remains (found recently) belong to imperial children - as researches are not finished yet.
<<The representative of Investigatory committee at Office of Public Prosecutor of the Russian Federation Vladimir Markin and the chief of the Sverdlovsk regional bureau of judicial-medical examination Nikolay Nevolin have declared on the eve that the remains found in the summer 2007, most likely, belong to imperial children - to Maria and Alexey Romanov. At the same time, according to Nevolin, the results of genetic examinations will be announced by the end of summer.
This performance of officials, probably, is dated for an anniversary - 90 years from the date of destruction of imperial family (on July,17). <...>
The head of the press-service of Moscow patriarchy (priest Vigilyansky) has told that the special commission can remove contradictions, - the special commision in which professionals, as those who carries out last researches, so and independent experts would enter. In his opinion, the commission should include also "those who has found the mistakes, discrepancies and jugglings into identifications of the first remains, in particular, scientists from the Japanese and American centres of science".
"Only after it the Church can assess researches. While (now) we consider applications of official Investigatory committee as one of numerous versions ", - the representative of a patriarchy has declared.>>

I think, that the position (the attitude) of ROC concerning researches of "old"(1998) and "new"(2007) Ekaterinburg remains is an objective, consecutive and honest position. Offer of ROC to create the special commission with participation of opponents of the official version (including with participation of the Japanese and American opponents) can promote a researches and establishment of truth.
Bravo, ROC!

[Warren]

In the absence of further announcements regarding the results of the DNA analysis, posts going over the same old ground have been moved to the Have the remains of the Imperial family been found thread.

[BorisRom]

• http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=5028 (in English)
• It is a small part of the large interview:
• http://www.interfax-religion.ru/?act=interview&div=191 (in Russian)

The big interview of a senior detective of the Russian Prosecutor General's Office Vladimir Solovyov to Interfax-Religion.

(He is engaged in investigation of murder of Imperial family since 1993 on present time)


(in my translation, in reduction)

• Journalist (Arthur Priimak): How your work on investigation goes, and what are the finish total results of the work? What unknown earlier circumstances of that time you found?
• V.S.: The Court of inquiry has not existed. At the previous stage (1993-1998) and now the court of inquiry consists of myself one only. The detection of the remains in 1991 and present (new) remains make a single whole. We have carefully studied the various archival materials connected with identification, and today's work is an acknowledgement of those ideas which we had earlier. A basis, certainly, were the Soviet documents - materials of Yurovsky, memoirs and notes of his colleagues. <...>
• Journalist: whether you collided during the work with alternative, non-standard versions of murderof members of imperial family?
• V.S.: Certainly, there was very-very much of various versions. <...> Now it is necessary to check all versions. Every day letters and posts came to me, and today in total more than 50 person say, that they are relatives of the imperial family which have survived, or that they know original circumstances of those events. All these versions have been checked up by the most carefully . Among others there was a version, that together with Nikolay's II family a certain merchant's family have been shot, that their remains have buried in different places, and that we have found (in 1979-1991) a family of this merchant, instead of imperial remains. Some people spoke also, that corpses have mixed, the part has got there, a part here... Versions there was one million, if no more. There was an original version, that heads of members of imperial family ostensibly cut off, have brought to Moscow where have shown Lenin.
• The ritual murder was one of the most ' fashionable ' amongst over one million theories of the royal family death. However, it was a political murder, not a human sacrifice. Investigators have pondered every circumstance, nationality and career of the killers. In fact, they have studied every possible piece of evidence. No evidence of ritual murder has been found. In my opinion, the theory of Sokolov and Diterix, who believed that the royal family was executed, taken to Ganina Yama and burnt, is the most likely.
  [Detective Nikolay Sokolov investigated the royal family murder in 1919-1924 and authored a related book. The investigation was supervised by Lt. Gen. Mikhail Diterix – comment of I.-R.] .
  [The ritual murder theory put the blame on ' Judaeo-Masons' (Masonic Jews). Advocates of that theory said that a number of Kabbalah signs were painted on the walls of the room where the family was killed in order to show that it was a human sacrifice. - comment of I.-R.]
• Journalist: During the work what attitudes with representatives of Church you had?
• V.S.: <...> Some people are doubting in our work. Until recently the Most holy Patriarch expressed such doubt also, and - I think - this doubt in much have been caused by data of those people which reported on the Patriarch on a course of our work. How much I can judge, the last (in April of this year) reports to the Patriarch are made by absolutely incompetent people. Doctors of medical sciences reported to Patriarch - doctors of sciences who did not see our examinations who were not familiar at all with techniques and who did not meet neither me, nor with someone on other of members of expert group. <...>
• Journalist: The Tragedy of imperial family already long time is an occasion for various gamble - both scientific, and political. Whether there were similar precedents in this year and what was your reaction to them?
• V.S.: As to you to tell... Japanese Tatsuo Nagai comes... Perhaps, he is a great scientist, but anybody in the world does not know his name. He speaks: " No! It is not imperial family!" And there and then he makes to himself greater PR advertising, and all world speaks: "Oh!, Tatsuo Nagai!"... Or Lion Zhivotovsky, the mathematician who never was engaged in expert activity... The true orthodox scientists appear in a shadow of my present opponents - in a shadow of Vadim Wiener, Olga Kulikovskova-Romanova who does not understand anything in it... <...> My main opponent, the historian and church archeologist Sergey Alekseevich Belyaev, - he is not the expert in this area too. <...> My expert Mironenko Sergey Vladimirovich - director of the Central state archive of the Russian Federation and simultaneously managing faculty of history of Russia of the end XIX - beginnings XX of centuries in the Moscow State University. He is large scientist. <...>
  Among those who is engaged in imperial family, the version is popular: per 1946 Kobulov (an assistant of L.Beriya) has arrived to Sverdlovsk, has opened an imperial burial place and has put there other bones. There is a question: tell, from what source you have taken the information? - And it is found out, that the source is Ekaterinburg parkway (yellow) newspaper... <...> [Here Vladimir Solovev is mistaken: Peter Ermakov told about it in 1952 - B.R.]

• Journalist: How do you think, what problems connected with imperial remains, will rise in the near future on the agenda?
• V.S.: We have made the work. <...> We direct the results to the largest world experts, to thirty independent experts who very attentively will study them. If we have admitted any methodical or fact mistakes, in this case the work for results will go on. If work will not be recognized, we obediently shall lift our hands and we shall tell world community, that we deceived all people. I hope, that it will not occur, - as serious scientists and experts who have professionally approached to the matter assigned to them were engaged in this question.
  We are expected with one more examination as Nikolay's II original shirt is found. We shall compare it to the sample who is in the Hermitage [??-B.R.] <...> My experts will try to take a genotype, and further we shall compare literally "Nikolay to Nikolay". If it will be found out, that the shirt did not belong to tsar or if it will not be possible to take a genotype in case of reviewing works already executed by us it will be possible to speak that Nikolay's II original family is found, anyway, his children Maria and Alexey are found.
  <...>

[BorisRom]

Detective Solovyov believes that Patriarch Alexy II receives reports on the investigation of the "tsar's remains" from incompetent people

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=5039 (in reduction)
Moscow, August 4, Interfax - Senior detective of the Russian Prosecutor General's Office Vladimir Solovyov believes that Patriarch Alexy II is mislead about the investigation process of the supposed remains of the tsar's family.
Some people have doubts about our work. Until recently, His Holiness Patriarch also expressed such doubt, and in my opinion, this doubt was based on information provided by people who reported to Patriarch about our work," Vladimir Solovyov, who has been involved in the investigation of Nicolas II murder since 1993, told in his interview to Interfax-Religion.
According to him, the latest reports to Patriarch dated late April this year "were made by absolutely incompetent people".
"They were Doctors of Medicine who had never seen any tests, never knew our methods, and never met me or any other members of the expert group. Such "expert" visits Patriarch, glibly reports what is believed to be needed, and then shows his picture made with Patriarch," the detective said.
Solovyov is disappointed that his appeal to attract Orthodox scientists to the investigation "found no support".
Vladimir Solovyov also mentioned the biased attitude to him by the most media which address the subject of the "tsar's remains". He said that 650 of 700 Internet articles that he had reviewed about the tsar's family were written against him.
<...>
See the full text under the Exclusive heading:
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=interview&div=65

[BorisRom]

Yesterday I saw on TV the inspector Vladimir Solovev in South Ossetia. As I have understood from the reporting, he is a part of group of inspectors of Investigatory committee of the State Office of Public Prosecutor of the Russian Federation, to which V.Putin has charged "the investigation on business about a genocide".
In this connection it is possible to expect a next delay of terms on "the investigation of the Ekaterinburg remains ".

[BorisRom]

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/?act=news&div=26239

(in reduction, in my translation )
Sverdlovsk archeologists consider necessary to continue excavation on a place of detection of remains of family of Nikolay II


Ekaterinburg. On August, 28th. InterFax - Sverdlovsk archeologists can continue excavation on a place of detection of remains of family of last Russian emperor at presence of financing.
"Researches need to be continued for fuller reconstruction of events because the archival facts are limited. It is necessary to investigate still the order of 1-1,5 thousand square meters ", - the chief of a department of archeology of the research-and-production center on protection and use of monuments of history and culture of Sverdlovsk area Sergey Pogorelov has informed the Interfax.
He has noted, that some things which "have been lost, have been thrown out, have been hidden, and all this is very important from the point of view of history" - all it can be found during future excavation.
As he said, it is possible to start excavation in the end of September if there money will be for the work". On everyone of 100 square meters it is required from 500 thousand up to one million roubles ", - S.Pogorelov has told.
Completely see:
http://www.interfax-religion.ru/?act=news&div=26239 (in Russian)

[J Kendrick]

One still has to wonder...

If, as the Russian investigators are now claiming, they really have managed to resolve the question of the two missing... then what is it, exactly, that they are still looking for?

If they do now have the answer that they have all been seeking for so very many years, then why are they still searching the same area that has already been gone over and over so many times before?

We have had several of these same reports in recent months, all of them telling us just how much the investigators will now be spending to continue the search... but none of these same reports has given us even the slightest clue of why they now still feel the need to keep on searching.... or what it is now, exactly, that they still hope to find.

If they do now have all of the necessary DNA evidence that they now claim to have.... then what, exactly, is the point of them now spending even more money and going back yet again to do even more searching?

There must still be something... some key piece of evidence... that the investigators now know, after having done all that testing over the past year, is still missing. There must still be something -- some key detail that has since shown in those tests -- that they still are not telling us. Otherwise, none of this extra effort and expense that has now been described in this latest report from Interfax would now be even the least bit necessary if they do, in fact, have all of those required DNA answers that they now claim to have.

Obviously, they still cannot have all of the answers... or they would not now be going to all of this extra trouble.

So...

What is it then... exactly... that these past ten months of in-depth high-tech DNA testing has now revealed to those same researchers that they still haven't found?

JK

[BorisRom]

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/?act=news&div=26314 (in Russian)
Sverdlovsk genetics have received genetic code of Nicholas II

(in reduction, in my translation)

Ekaterinburg. On September, 2nd. INTERFAX - Genetics of the Sverdlovsk regional bureau ofa judicial-medical examination could to take DNA from the sample taken from a spot of blood from a shirt of emperor Nicholas II (Japan).
"Nicholas's II Genetic structure has been determined on 13 loci of autosom (аутосомной -in Russian) DNA and on 15 loci from a Y-chromosome (a locus - the linear site of a chromosome borrowed by one gene - "IF"). It turns out, that here it will be possible to spend the analysis actually on 28 loci - it is much, more than in two time, than in a usual practice ", - the expert has explained. <...>
As he said, comparison of allocated DNA with the DNA of the remains from the first burial place found near Ekaterinburg in 1991 will be made.
"Nikolay's II remains were not investigated in our laboratory and we have not here the genetic code of the skeleton number 4 (named earlier as skeleton of Nicholas II). As soon as in the near future the genetic structure of tsar from other laboratories will be given to us, we shall have an opportunity to compare its", - N.Nevolin has told.
<...>

[Anna was Franziska]

The sample in Japan is a waste of time. It's contaminated, and has already come up as not a match. As soon as the first person's sweaty hands touched that shirt, or breathed on it, all bets were off. It's been there since 100 years before DNA testing existed, so no one knew to preserve it back then, and they didn't do a good job by today's standards. Any tests on that shirt would be pointless.

[J Kendrick]

Originally Posted by BorisRom

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/?act=news&div=26314 (in Russian)
Sverdlovsk genetics have received genetic code of Nicholas II

(in reduction, in my translation)

Ekaterinburg. On September, 2nd. INTERFAX - Genetics of the Sverdlovsk regional bureau ofa judicial-medical examination could to take DNA from the sample taken from a spot of blood from a shirt of emperor Nicholas II (Japan).
"Nicholas's II Genetic structure has been determined on 13 loci of autosom (аутосомной -in Russian) DNA and on 15 loci from a Y-chromosome (a locus - the linear site of a chromosome borrowed by one gene - "IF"). It turns out, that here it will be possible to spend the analysis actually on 28 loci - it is much, more than in two time, than in a usual practice ", - the expert has explained. <...>
As he said, comparison of allocated DNA with the DNA of the remains from the first burial place found near Ekaterinburg in 1991 will be made.
"Nikolay's II remains were not investigated in our laboratory and we have not here the genetic code of the skeleton number 4 (named earlier as skeleton of Nicholas II). As soon as in the near future the genetic structure of tsar from other laboratories will be given to us, we shall have an opportunity to compare its", - N.Nevolin has told.
<...>

Hang on a second...

Regarding the comparison of DNA found on the "Otsu" shirt from the Hermitage, here we have Nikolai Nevolin now saying on September 2nd: "Nikolay's II remains were not investigated in our laboratory and we have not here the genetic code of the skeleton number 4. As soon as in the near future the genetic structure of Tsar from other laboratories will be given to us, we shall have an opportunity to compare it".

But...

Back on July 16th, both the Prosecutor Vladimir Soloviev and the very same Nikolai Nevolin were claiming to the world at a news conference held in Ekaterinburg to mark the 90th anniversary of the murders that they did have the genetic codes of Nicholas and that they had matched with the alleged bone fragments of the missing that had been found last summer.

So, what gives?

Do they yet have all of the allegedly matching genetic codes together in one place... or do they not? Have all of the different laboratories that have been involved over the past 12 months still not brought all of their results together in one place for comparison... after what they had been claiming so publicly just six short weeks ago? Is Nevolin not contradicting himself here?

JK

[BorisRom]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

The sample in Japan is a waste of time. It's contaminated, and has already come up as not a match. As soon as the first person's sweaty hands touched that shirt, or breathed on it, all bets were off. It's been there since 100 years before DNA testing existed, so no one knew to preserve it back then, and they didn't do a good job by today's standards. Any tests on that shirt would be pointless.

I am surprised by your post. Such impression, that you are in advance assured (on 100 %) in negative result of this comparison.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by BorisRom

I am surprised by your post. Such impression, that you are in advance assured (on 100 %) in negative result of this comparison.

Maybe you don't understand. The reason I think so is because it has already been tested against the DNA from the bones, which were tested against relatives, and it didn't match. This means the blood on the shirt either wasn't his, or it was contaminated. Since it had been sitting around for 100 years, and in most of those years people had no idea how to secure things as sterile since DNA testing didn't exist, the first time someone else touched it, it was over. This does not mean I doubt the bones as being the Tsar's, they are.

[J Kendrick]

Hmmm...

Now we have Nikolai Nevolin in September still going on with his earlier statement of June that the overall weight of the bone fragments is "not enough for two people".

So... What does this latest statement by Nevolin now really tell us about the true reasons for their continuing search for even more bones.. even though they had recently insisted that they do have all the DNA evidence they need?

The truth of the matter is: If they do now have all of the DNA that they need, as they have recently claimed... then there is no need at all to continue the search for more bones of the missing as they are currently doing.

So again, the same question arises...

If they do now have all of the DNA evidence that is necessary to identify the missing pair, as they have recently claimed... then what does Nikolai Nevolin's now repeated statement that the "..overall weight of the fragments is not enough for two people" really mean?... and... What is it, exactly, that they are now still searching for that they *still* haven't found?

JK

From RIA Novosti
Experts suggest another Russian tsar family burial site exists
20:13 04/ 09/ 2008
See: RIA Novosti - Russia - Experts suggest another Russian tsar family burial site exists

MOSCOW, September 4 (RIA Novosti) - Russian archaeologists could discover another site where the remains of the children of Russia's last tsar are buried, a Russian forensic expert said.

Tsar Nicholas II, his wife, their four daughters and son, and several servants, were shot dead by the Bolsheviks in a basement in the Urals city of Yekaterinburg in the early hours of July 17, 1918. The Romanovs were canonized in 2000.

The bodies of all the family, except for those of Prince Alexei and his elder sister Maria, were found in 1991 and buried in the St. Peter and Paul Cathedral in St. Petersburg in 1998.The bones belonging to Alexei and Maria, according to DNA tests, were discovered near the city of Yekaterinburg in July 2007.

The remains were examined by a total of 22 experts from 12 different laboratories. The initial failure to locate the bodies of Maria and Alexei fueled rumors that they had somehow survived.

"When the second burial was found, it turned out that the overall weight of fragments was not enough for two people. And we suggested that another small burial site, a hole with the same amount of bones could exist on the territory," said Nikolai Nevolin, head of forensics for the Sverdlovsk Region.

The region spent around 6 million rubles ($240,000) to carry out DNA tests of the tsar's family members from the second burial site, Nevolin said. He added that tests would continue in case of a new discovery.

This year, the Russian Orthodox Church held services and processions across the country to commemorate the 90th anniversary of the killing of the last Russian tsar and his family.

-30-

[Anna was Franziska]

So again, the same question arises...

If they do now have all of the DNA evidence that is necessary to identify the missing pair, as they have recently claimed... then what does Nikolai Nevolin's now repeated statement that the "..overall weight of the fragments is not enough for two people" really mean?... and... What is it, exactly, that they are now still searching for that they *still* haven't found?

Yes, they DO have enough DNA, the tests have been completed in multiple labs and they prove a male and a female who were both children of N and A were burned in that pit. Perhps they are looking for more fragments, how horrible it would be to leave some body parts out there! Or maybe they think more valuable artifacts can be found. None of this means they don't think they have the bodies, they know they do because one was male and one female. Personally, I'm surprised they found as much as they did, considering both bodies were cremated and spent 90 years decaying in mud.

[Warren]

Maybe they're just making sure they don't miss anything and so intend to do a bit more digging around.
I don't see why being thorough should be a problem for some people, but apparently it is.

[J Kendrick]

Originally Posted by Warren

Maybe they're just making sure they don't miss anything and so intend to do a bit more digging around.
I don't see why being thorough should be a problem for some people, but apparently it is.

If it had been the case that they are only continuing their digging merely for the purposes of being thorough, then surely they would have continued to dig throughout August and September of last summer.. following directly upon their claimed discovery in July of last year. Such is not the case. Quite to the contrary, the decision to return for even more searching for missing bones yet again this summer had not, in fact, been made until *after* this latest round of DNA testing had already been underway for the better part of three months.

The investigators must still be missing some key piece evidence that they still need to find. Otherwise, there is no practical purpose at all for continuing with the search if they do now have -- as they claim -- all of the DNA evidence that is necessary to prove their alleged discovery of the missing pair.

There is certainly no need to continue with the search for a third possible grave site as Nikolai Nevolin has now suggested to the media. There is no evidence *whatsoever* in any of the known Romanov history that would even hint at the suggestion that there had ever been a third possible burial pit. Unless, of course, there does now exist some new key detail that they have recently uncovered in this latest round of DNA tests -- some new detail that we still haven't been told about -- that has now suggested to those same investigators the possible existence of a previously unknown third burial pit.

If they do now have all of the necessary DNA evidence that is required to confirm their recent claim to have found the remains of the missing, then any continued digging for a never-before suspected third burial site at an added financial cost that at least equals the money that has already been spent during the past year's DNA research -- only for the sake of being thorough -- is not only an unnecessary waste of time, money, and effort that Russia can ill-afford. It also runs contrary to the most strict of Russian Orthodox teachings that any more human bones which may still be buried there should now continue to remain undisturbed as a matter of respect for the dead.

JK

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Yes, they DO have enough DNA, the tests have been completed in multiple labs and they prove a male and a female who were both children of N and A were burned in that pit. Perhps they are looking for more fragments, how horrible it would be to leave some body parts out there! Or maybe they think more valuable artifacts can be found. None of this means they don't think they have the bodies, they know they do because one was male and one female. Personally, I'm surprised they found as much as they did, considering both bodies were cremated and spent 90 years decaying in mud.

This is just a guess: They may not have enough to prove there are four individual grand duchesses. Without such proof, they cannot prove that the female bones found in the two pits 2007 were not taken from the mass grave and planted. In order to do this, they may need to find a bone or a tooth of the female which would provide the DNA needed to complete their tests. If there isn't such proof, then the rumors will continue, and, I think the Russian want to close the door on any claimants (past, present or future).

If you recall, that was one of the main points the National Geographic special voiced as being all important at the beginning of their dialogue.

AGRBear

[tsarskoe]

I suspect the investigation continues simply due to the fact that there must be more bone fragments, teeth etc in the area. In the aforementioned National Geographic special the DNA evidence from the two sets of bones found were concluded through NUCLEAR DNA (Which is a combination of one's Mother and Father) to be the children of the remains of the Czar and Czarina. The fact that one of the sets was determined to be male and his NUCLEAR DNA indicated he was the genetic son of the Czar and Czarina certainly this concludes the mystery of Alexei's remains.

I have yet to read that they compared the NUCLEAR DNA test results of the recently found Duchess with the other three previously found Duchesses. Although I suspect that such a comparison has already been done and thus ensuring that all four have been found.

[Anna was Franziska]

If comparisons have been done, I hope the results are released soon. If they haven't been, I hope they will be. Of course, nothing is going to satisfy those who claim the tests were rigged by the Russian gov't, Queen, or other unnamed bogeymen out to 'discredit AA.'

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

If comparisons have been done, I hope the results are released soon. If they haven't been, I hope they will be. Of course, nothing is going to satisfy those who claim the tests were rigged by the Russian gov't, Queen, or other unnamed bogeymen out to 'discredit AA.'

You're right.
And I'm wondering if they throw a nice big bomb on there that they're missing MORE of the grand duchesses! That would be a merry lark!