2009 Identification of the remains found in July 2007

[LadyCat]

If only bone fragments were found I would think it impossible to state which of the children was buried in which pit, as there is no database containing the specific DNA of each of the children. Even if such a database existed it has been impossible (to date) to do nuclear DNA testing on the bone fragments. So how was it determined that the last body was that of Mara and not one of her sisters? For that matter how did they determine Maria and Alexei were missing from the first grave if all there was to go on was MtDNA?

I don't know much about DNA testing, but I believe that the MtDNA would be the same in all 5 children, yes? Without full skeletal remains to exam for age, height, etc., how was it determined who was buried in which pit?

Cat

[Russophile]

That, Cat, is obviously the 64,000 question!

[J Kendrick]

To answer your question as to how they had determined that two were missing from the first grave:

The following is from "Identification of the remains of the Romanov family by DNA analysis" by Drs. Peter Gill, Pavel Ivanov, et al, NATURE GENETICS, Volume 6. February 1994, Page 131....

"If the remains are those of the Romanovs then the STR (chromosomal DNA) and sex test data indicate that one of the princesses and the Tsarevich Alexei were missing from the grave."

Since they are looking for a missing brother and sister, the same sex test data that was missing from the tests done in 1993 on the bones that were found in the first burial pit must be found in these latest tests of the small number of bone fragments that were found in the second. They must find the genetic evidence of both an X-X for the sister and an X-Y for the brother... and in both cases that same genetic sex test evidence must be found to exist together in a single bone fragment with the same mitochondrial DNA profile as Body 7 (Alexandra) from the first grave. The STR (Chromosomal DNA) for the fragments with a Female X-X must also be different from the STR data for Bodies Nos. 3 (Olga), 5 (unidentified), 6 (unidentified), and 7 (Alexandra) to prove that they actually do have remains of a fourth daughter with the same mitochondrial DNA but a different Chromosomal DNA profile than those in the first burial pit.

JK

[LadyCat]

JK than you very much for answering the bulk of my questions. I knew there was a test for chromosomal DNA but did not know if such a a test was viable on the bones recovered.

The only mystery that remains is how it was determined Maria, and not one of the other girls, was missing from the first grave.

Cat

[J Kendrick]

Or if, indeed, it even is Maria that is missing.

That, of course, brings us back to the key point of dispute between the US and Russian forensics teams and that still unresolved question of which of the daughters is actually missing. The only one of the four sisters whose identity they have ever agreed upon is that of Body No. 3... Olga.

The true identities of *all* of the other three... Bodies Nos. 5 & 6, and the missing daughter... are, in fact, still unresolved to this very day.
JK

[Royal Fan]

So does anyone think it was Maria and Alexei they found I Suppose its easier to find the boy than the girl in my opionion

[Russophile]

Personally, I don't think they found either of them. I think they took some of the fragments from the original find and put them there, for what reason, to draw a close to the situation-amongst other reasons. But that's just me. . . .

[Marengo]

well, why go through all that trouble? in the end nobody would actually benifit from it (that the bodies were found).

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Oh I really don't think those new bones are parts of the old ones. The 1991 grave was whole (but broken) skeletons. This is just burned fragments. The Bolsheviks said they buried all but two bodies and the other two were burned nearby. That is exactly what has been found. Besides it's not giving the Russians much credit to say they are either too silly not to know the difference or crooked enough to do it on purpose. That would be a rather harsh accusation with no validation. Marengo is right, why would anyone do such a thing? It doesn't make any sense. I will believe the scientists.

[RhapsodyBrat]

Originally Posted by LadyCat

The only mystery that remains is how it was determined Maria, and not one of the other girls, was missing from the first grave.

Cat

If I am not mistaken, you can also deduce the age of the corpse/remains through examining the physical state of the remains as well as DNA testing. Perhaps that was the way (along with historical records) they established who's who among the remains they have recovered.

[AGRBear]

Our American expert in forensics, Dr. Maples, who saw the remains and later wrote the book DEAD MEN DO TELL TALES his comments.

Dr. Maples wasn't at all happy with the way the bones were treated, separated and placed (he believed the long arm bone which was placed next to Nicholas II which he believed was a bone belonging to another male)... Nor did he like the way the Russians used glue to piece together the skulls... In regards to the bones which the Russians claim was Anastasia, Maples said "nope", not possible, because the development of the set of bones labeled "Anastasia" is that of someone the age of Maria not the younger Anastasia.

In chapter 15 which starts on p. 238, he goes into details about what he believed occured from what he had read and observed as he viewed the bones of the nine victims. He was a forensic anthropologist. On page 256 he describes the body which he numbers #5 which he believed was GD Marie.

The following is data on the bones of the young females found in the mass grave:

p. 256 of Maples:
>>Body No. 5 belonged to a woman in her late teens or early twenties.<<
>>Dr. Levine and I agreed that she was the youngest of the five women whose skeletons lay before us. We concluded this from the fact that the root tips of her third molars were incomplete. Her sacrum in the back of her pelvis, was not completely developed. Her limb bones showed that growth had only recently ended. Her back showed evidence of immaturity, but it was nevertheless the back of a woman at least eighteen years old. We estimated her height at 67.5 inches.<<
>>We believe this skeleton is that of Marie, who was nineteen years old at the time of the murders.<<
67.5 = 5 feet 6 inches tall

AGRBear

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna

Oh I really don't think those new bones are parts of the old ones. The 1991 grave was whole (but broken) skeletons. This is just burned fragments. The Bolsheviks said they buried all but two bodies and the other two were burned nearby. That is exactly what has been found. Besides it's not giving the Russians much credit to say they are either too silly not to know the difference or crooked enough to do it on purpose. That would be a rather harsh accusation with no validation. Marengo is right, why would anyone do such a thing? It doesn't make any sense. I will believe the scientists.

Well, from what I've read of the Sokolov papers, Massie, and FOTR, the Bolsheviks LIED. How many people were on record that THEY, and only THEM killed Nicholas?
I don't care if it's a harsh accusation. Stalin killed millions of his own people. It's not out of the realm considering that fact alone. I just want the truth. And until the--all the parties involved--buck up and tell the truth, we're never going to have an end to this.
Actually, I'm never going to have an end to this. ON, you've all ready decided that the case is closed and that's entirely okay. I am just convinced there's more to the puzzle than meets the eye, and I'm not talking about AA being AN or FS here.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by AGRBear

67.5 = 5 feet 6 inches tall

AGRBear

Bear, wasn't it reported that Anastasia was 5'2"?

[AGRBear]

Yes, it is believed that GD Anastasia stopped growing and was about 5 feet 2 inches tall by July of 1918. No one knows for sure. None of the royal diaries or letters sent out of Ekaterinburg mention GD Anastasia had a spurt of growth in Tobolsk or at Ekaterinburg.

We do have some photos of her at Toblosk and she appears to be about the same height as in earlier photos which can to used to estimate her height to be about 5 feet 2 inches.

Maples estimated the height of each of the remains which have been identified as being three of the grand duchesses. None in the mass grave were estimated as being 5 feet 2 inches.

AGRBear

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Originally Posted by Russophile

Well, from what I've read of the Sokolov papers, Massie, and FOTR, the Bolsheviks LIED. How many people were on record that THEY, and only THEM killed Nicholas?

They did lie. They reported they had only killed Nicholas when actually they had killed the entire family. Once the Whites took the region and the Bolsheviks were interrogated, more of the truth came out.

I don't care if it's a harsh accusation. Stalin killed millions of his own people. It's not out of the realm considering that fact alone.

He did, but there are none of them in this forest. No bodies have been excavated in the region other than the Romanov party. All items in the grave such as bullets are World War I era.

I just want the truth. And until the--all the parties involved--buck up and tell the truth, we're never going to have an end to this.

What makes you think they haven't? What reason would they possibly have to lie, now after all these years?

[Russophile]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough about the execution.According to Massie and FOTR, several of the executioners claimed to have fired the first shot that killed Nicholas. Several claimed to have fired the shot that killed the Empress. They were drunk and disorderly. How do they know? They lied and bloviated for years. The country, under Stalin kept it up for many a decade. They still have secrets. I remember a 60 minutes interview with the daughter of Kurschiev--I think, where she had access to a lot of the Romanov's treasures. They were hidden away, like so many little secrets that the country has kept.
It is my belief that something fishy that smells bad is still brewing. I will work to find that out. If I spin my wheels, so be it.

[J Kendrick]

Six days without a single post? Where did everyone go?

Surely, you haven't all given up! ;-)

The Romanov investigation still isn't over yet... not by a long shot... in spite of the very unfortunate public impression that Governor Edvard Rossel has created with his premature comments to the media.

JK

[Warren]

Maybe everyone is waiting for something more definitive. It is difficult to sustain a discussion when nothing much is actually known. This one's a slow burner and most members are probably patient enough to sit back and wait until the results and conclusions are published. Until then, all we have is speculation.

[J Kendrick]

Originally Posted by Warren

Maybe everyone is waiting for something more definitive. It is difficult to sustain a discussion when nothing much is actually known. This one's a slow burner and most members are probably patient enough to sit back and wait until the results and conclusions are published. Until then, all we have is speculation.

This one's been a very slow burner that's been fueled by nothing more than speculation, hearsay, and gossip for all of the past ninety years. The most recent statements that have been made in the media by Governor Edvard Rossel are, in fact, just as much speculation, hearsay, and gossip as anything else that has been said for all of those past 90 years.... So, why should it stop anyone now from talking about what's happening with the current investigation? ;-)

Even if they did have a mitochondrial match, that still doesn't yet tell us with so few bones to work with whether there's actually DNA proof of two bodies or of only just one.... whether any genetic testing has yet shown if the bones are either male or female or both.... whether the DNA shows if bone fragments are, in fact, from different members of the family than those at the first grave site or whether it shows that they are only just missing fragments that had actually come from the first site.... and whether or not there is, in fact, any genetic evidence of that suspected Factor VIII gene.

There's also the question of why the investigators now think that it's necessary to return to the grave site for still yet another round of searching this summer... the questions of just what is now happening with the US AFIP being sent another set of samples because they couldn't get any results from the first set... of why the Innsbruck, Austria lab has suddenly been brought in at the very last minute when it's never been involved in the Romanov investigation before.... and what possible reasons could there now be for the recently admitted fact that Innsbruck, too, is now being sent a second set of samples...

...and that's just for starters.

More than enough fuel for a continuing conversation, don't you think? :-)

JK

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by Warren

Maybe everyone is waiting for something more definitive. It is difficult to sustain a discussion when nothing much is actually known. This one's a slow burner and most members are probably patient enough to sit back and wait until the results and conclusions are published. Until then, all we have is speculation.

The slow burner is placed on the highest when news like the following is announced:

>>DNA confirms IDs of czar's children
By MIKE ECKEL – Apr 30, 2008
MOSCOW (AP) — DNA tests carried out by a U.S. laboratory prove that bone fragments exhumed last year belong to two children of Czar Nicholas II, putting to rest questions about what happened to Russia's last royal family, a regional governor said Wednesday.

...[in part]....<<

Found at:
The Associated Press: DNA confirms IDs of czar's children

BUT, the US lab doesn't have any DNA drawn from the first set of bone samples and has request new samples.


So, it's one thing sitting back and waiting for all the lab reports but quite another when Rossel suddenly jumps up and misinforms the world that the US lab had drawn DNA which proved beyond any doubt that the fragment of bones discovered in the two pits were the missing "two children of Nicholas II". The facts at that time were: The U.S. lab could not process any DNA from the first sample of bones sent and had just asked for new samples.

My question to Warren and others: Don't some of you ever wonder why in these last 90 years that the leading Russian politicians have always been in a hurry in putting the lid on this story with hopes of shoving it off to some archive where it will cause people to loose interests and end up just gathering dust and when it vanishes from the archies, no one will take notice?

The Russian politicians did this in 1918, again, in 1991, and, again in July of 2007 and continues to this hour, which is just short of a year later,and will continue. What is is. And, all the spinning by Russian politicans can't stop those of us seeking "the whole truth and nothing but the truth". And we can't find out the truth if we don't ask questions through out the process in which all of us are, now, a part.

AGRBear