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  #541  
Old 08-02-2020, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biri View Post
And harm eventual children by breaking up a family.

And by the way, are a racist conditions of receiving inheritance in acordance with current German Constitution?
What you label as the so-called "racist condition" is not in the Will, so has been revealed. One of the conditions of the Will was that the beneficiary must be married with a lady whose family meets the admission requirements of the Deutsche Adelsgenossenschaft. With other words: the family must be enlisted in their Almanach.

That is the - on itself not so spectacular - condition. However, with the fall of the monarchy in 1918 and the loss of authoritative sovereigns to decide in matters of Nobility, in an attempt to keep the Nobility (which lost all rights and privileges) and to fence off "fake nobles", the Statutes were made stricter: "reinblütige Deutsche Adeligen" (German Nobles of pure blood). In the Nazi era, in a (succesful) strategy to escape a take-over by the Nazis, the Deutsche Adelsgenossenschaft introduced the term "Aryan" in their Statutes (read: no Jews allowed).

That is it. This Deutsche Adelsgenossenschaft is no more. The current Deutscher Adelsrechtsausschuß is the successor in juridic matters.

It would have been no problem if the grandfather of Prince Gustav had required: the beneficiary of his Will must marry a partner whose family is enlisted in the Handbuch des Deutschen Adels. Had the Deutsche Adelsgenossenschaft been existing today, they for sure would have updated their Statutes.

The Will is victim of being frozen in time (the grandfather went missing in action in 1944, during WWII) and the Deutsche Adelsgenossenschaft was in ruins after 1945 now half of their members lost all and everything under Communist rule and the loss of enormous German territories to Poland, Czechoalovakia, the USSR, etc.

Only in 1969 the grandfather was declared dead and only then his Will (which he could never update) was executed.
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  #542  
Old 08-02-2020, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
This does not hinder Prince Gustav in any way to marry the woman he loves. He can order a carriage right now and ride to the townhall to marry whoever he wishes, noble or non noble, male or female.

That this has possible consequences for a Will is a different matter. Imagine that someone has written in his Will that the beneficiary must be 25 years of age and have finished university. Imagine that the intended beneficiary has done nothing but partying and has not enrolled university. Perfectly and rightly his free choice. But with that he misses a condition in said Will.
That is hardly the same thing. Gustav is it seems a hard working man who is willing to look after his inheritance.. ad he's told that if he marries the woman he loves, he may/will lose that inheritance.. just because she is not "noble" or !"aryan."
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  #543  
Old 08-02-2020, 08:32 AM
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What a story , I remember Prince Richard Mother was not allowed to wear the family Fringe tiara at his Son's Wedding ...
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  #544  
Old 08-02-2020, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
What a story , I remember Prince Richard Mother was not allowed to wear the family Fringe tiara at his Son's Wedding ...

At that time her mother-in-law the grandmother of Prince Richard was still alive and the fringe tiara was her personal property as id had been a gift to her.
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  #545  
Old 08-03-2020, 04:21 AM
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Look what popped up on Noblesse et Royautés today.
Gustav de Sayn-Wittgensetin-Berleburg : 2ème victoire devant ls tribunaux – Noblesse & Royautés
It appears Uncle Ludwig-Ferdinand does plan to take his beef further.

"Second favorable court decision for the prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, head of the princely house ... Despite this second victory, the case is not yet over because Prince Ludwig Ferdinand (1942), cousin of Prince Gustav, now intends to go to the Federal Constitutional Court. 500 million are at stake, including Berleburg Castle."
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  #546  
Old 08-03-2020, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
That is hardly the same thing. Gustav is it seems a hard working man who is willing to look after his inheritance.. ad he's told that if he marries the woman he loves, he may/will lose that inheritance.. just because she is not "noble" or !"aryan."

Prince Gustav can marry anyone he wishes. And he has the usufruct of the enormous fortune of his House. Little to complain, I would say. Note that his grandfather Prince Gustav Albrecht bypassed his very own son Prince Richard to make his then unborn future grandson Prince Gustav his heir. The one to "complain" was Prince Gustav's late father...

One can not complain too hard about a Will, when from day one of his very own life fully enjoying all the benefits of one of Germany's largest private fortunes and then "discovering" there are conditions to said benefits...
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  #547  
Old 08-03-2020, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Prince Gustav can marry anyone he wishes. And he has the usufruct of the enormous fortune of his House. Little to complain, I would say. Note that his grandfather Prince Gustav Albrecht bypassed his very own son Prince Richard to make his then unborn future grandson Prince Gustav his heir. The one to "complain" was Prince Gustav's late father...

One can not complain too hard about a Will, when from day one of his very own life fully enjoying all the benefits of one of Germany's largest private fortunes and then "discovering" there are conditions to said benefits...
I think its appalling. If he had put in a condition that the heir be a soldier, or that he should go to University, it would be tolerable.. but to say that he cannot marry someone who is "not noble" and not Aryan.. is not.
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  #548  
Old 08-03-2020, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I think its appalling. If he had put in a condition that the heir be a soldier, or that he should go to University, it would be tolerable.. but to say that he cannot marry someone who is "not noble" and not Aryan.. is not.
Maybe for 2020 it's odd, but at that time it was expected to be like that for many old noble families which required that the future Head of the family had to marry someone who will meet their family law criteria.

Even today, if Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia didn't marry Princess Sophie of Isenburg, he would also lose much of his inheritance.
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  #549  
Old 08-03-2020, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Daly View Post
Look what popped up on Noblesse et Royautés today.
Gustav de Sayn-Wittgensetin-Berleburg : 2ème victoire devant ls tribunaux – Noblesse & Royautés
It appears Uncle Ludwig-Ferdinand does plan to take his beef further.

"Second favorable court decision for the prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, head of the princely house ... Despite this second victory, the case is not yet over because Prince Ludwig Ferdinand (1942), cousin of Prince Gustav, now intends to go to the Federal Constitutional Court. 500 million are at stake, including Berleburg Castle."

He may intend that and obviously the ruling by the second court gives him that chance. A Court which sees that there are questions involving constitutional rules often opens up the way for an application of the Constitutional Court but I don't see(IMHO!) the Court accepting the case as it is clear that the institution of "marriage" (as a status protected by our Constitution) is not in question here and ownership of such a "family collection" is problematic when it comes to the constitutional effects, as then the sisters of Gustav were equally to put in the circle of potential heirs.



Plus the Thurn & Taxis have tried (thus far in vain) to open up their "family collection" to be able to get certain lands or companies or even jewelery out of it for the sake of the prince's sisters. As the Dowager princess was able to strike a deal with the Bavarian state, so the inheritance tax was payed, there is no fear that the House is getting unable to pay for their obligation and in that case the ordered "unbreakable collection for the sake of the whole House" is not in danger, even though the current prince might want to give his sisters a greater share of the inheritance.



So yes, this relative of Gustav may try to get the Constitutional Court to rule. but I doubt it will change anything.
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  #550  
Old 08-03-2020, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Prince Gustav can marry anyone he wishes. And he has the usufruct of the enormous fortune of his House. Little to complain, I would say. Note that his grandfather Prince Gustav Albrecht bypassed his very own son Prince Richard to make his then unborn future grandson Prince Gustav his heir. The one to "complain" was Prince Gustav's late father...

One can not complain too hard about a Will, when from day one of his very own life fully enjoying all the benefits of one of Germany's largest private fortunes and then "discovering" there are conditions to said benefits...

In such wills, the "Vorerbe" (here Prince Richard) actually looks after the inheritance and collected the free money (so glad he had gains, a lot of families struggle to make their historical inheritance work, so they can pay repairs and support of their land!) while he lived and only then the "aufschiebende Bedingung" that Gustav was the next heir came into effect.

Only then could this uncle start a feud involving the courts. That Richard let Gustav administer the estate had nothing to say about who actually was the owner!



To put it simply: the will influenced the family inheritance of the Berleburgs. As long as the Vorerbe lived, the inheritance was his to care for and to use up the "fruits". When the Vorerbe died, the Nacherbe (Gustav at that moment, if he fulfilled the other stipulations) really inherited. Thus, only Gustav must pay inheritance tax. Now Gustav can seek the dissolution of the family inheritance trust fund (which I call "collection" because Trust fond in the English meaning does not cover that construct) or try to get some things out of it to give to his sisters or other people. He can now marry whoever he wants. Not sure he can adopt and his new son can inherit.



As long as I have no idea when the "collection" was created and what is included and how the stipulations are, I cannot say more about it. And as this is private, the Berleburg don't need to give out that information.
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  #551  
Old 08-03-2020, 09:20 AM
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I think its appalling. If he had put in a condition that the heir be a soldier, or that he should go to University, it would be tolerable.. but to say that he cannot marry someone who is "not noble" and not Aryan.. is not.

I think you don't understand the system that was in place within the nobility pre the end of the monarchies and which was held up by so many after that. My grandmother was kicked out of her noble family because she had married a nice and kind man without noble blood. Even today we are not recognised by our closer family from that side. My grandmother was so ashamed of that that she never told my mother about her heritage, though my mother herself was from a good family, who had lost their lands in WWII. Or maybe because of that. (Due to my grandmother working as housekeeper for an industrialist pre WWII, she and my grandfather could pay for my father's education and university studies, so he was considered "suitable" for my mother after WWII, when blood did not count so much but education). Mom only found out when she found the Aryan passport of my father which included part of my grandmother's lineage.


Only when the younger generation of the former Royal families started to marry young educated women, things changed. But without a monarch, some things were not so easily changed. EG Otto von Habsburg, the Head of the House, could agree to a marriage of his eldest son Archduke Karl with a mere Baroness. But as the new "empress in waiting" of the Habsburg could not prove an impeccable line of nobility up to the fourth generation, she could not become even a member of the Star-Cross-Order, which was founded in 1668 by then empress Eleonore, much less the highest lady of the Order. As Otto's wife was born a princess of Saxe-Meiningen, Karl's sister Gabriela had the amount of highest nobility in her lineage and became the Grandmistress of the order after her mother's death.



Or the current heir of the Bavaria Royal family after duke Franz (no children) and his brother Max (only daughters), Luitpold von Bayern lost his place in the succession when he married a Miss Wiegand, but when it turned out the line had to go through him, the marriage was declared valid according to the Wittelsbacher's laws and the existing children became dynasts. The eldest son is unmarried, but the second one married a Sayn-Wittgenstein-princess, so we will probably see the line continuing...
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  #552  
Old 08-03-2020, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
I





Or the current heir of the Bavaria Royal family after duke Franz (no children) and his brother Max (only daughters), Luitpold von Bayern lost his place in the succession when he married a Miss Wiegand, but when it turned out the line had to go through him, the marriage was declared valid according to the Wittelsbacher's laws and the existing children became dynasts. The eldest son is unmarried, but the second one married a Sayn-Wittgenstein-princess, so we will probably see the line continuing...



Actually you have mixed things in the bavarian RF. From Prince Luitpold's three sons only the second Heinrich is married to a commoner Henriette Gruse.

The one who is married to a Berleburg Pricness is Prince Manuel the oldest son of Prince Lepold (Poldi) from the spanish brach. But this is branch is at the end of the succession line as between them and Prince Luitpold and his sons are the 3 sons of the late Prince Rasso from which one is a Priest and the others 2 both have each 3 sons.
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  #553  
Old 08-03-2020, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Daly View Post
Look what popped up on Noblesse et Royautés today.
Gustav de Sayn-Wittgensetin-Berleburg : 2ème victoire devant ls tribunaux – Noblesse & Royautés
It appears Uncle Ludwig-Ferdinand does plan to take his beef further.
And rightfully so, I think!

The last will: In Germany we not only look for the exact words written down, but under what cirumstances and surroundings they were made and what was probably meant with them.

It is pretty clear, that the deceased Prince wanted his family to life on as a noble family!

But how can the family have further generations, if Prince Gustav is unwilling/unable/whatever to have kids at all - not to speak of noble kids?

Clearly - at least I think - the last will is not followed here!
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  #554  
Old 08-03-2020, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
I think you don't understand the system that was in place within the nobility pre the end of the monarchies and which was held up by so many after that. My grandmother was kicked out of her noble family because she had married a nice and kind man without noble blood. Even today we are not recognised by our closer family from that side. My grandmother was so ashamed of that that she never told my mother about her heritage, thhe Bavaria Royal family after duke Franz (no children) and his brother Max (only daughters), Luitpold von Bayern lost his place in the succession when he married a Miss Wiegand, but when it turned out the line had to go through him, the marriage was declared valid according to the Wittelsbacher's laws and the existing children became dynasts. The eldest son is unmarried, but the second one married a Sayn-Wittgenstein-princess, so we will probably see the line continuing...
If you see this as OK i cant' argue./...
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  #555  
Old 08-03-2020, 10:49 AM
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And rightfully so, I think!

The last will: In Germany we not only look for the exact words written down, but under what cirumstances and surroundings they were made and what was probably meant with them.

It is pretty clear, that the deceased Prince wanted his family to life on as a noble family!

But how can the family have further generations, if Prince Gustav is unwilling/unable/whatever to have kids at all - not to speak of noble kids?

Clearly - at least I think - the last will is not followed here!
I find it slightly ironic that when this will was written Prince Gustav wasn't even born and it was by no means certain that Prince Richard, himself young, would have a son at all.

He is able to pass on the property to family when he dies. Not marrying a noble Aryan woman and having babies doesn't mean he shouldn't inherit at all. I believe Prince Robin is theoretically still his heir at this point which keeps it in the family.

Also if Gustav wants to/is able to leave the property to his nephew for example, that nephew will have ruling dynasty cousins, even if they don't have the SWB name. Much closer to royalty than titles that went out of legal use 100 years ago. Even though I know it's the name and patrilineage that counts for many. And that countries with reigning dynasties have less complicated marriage requirements.

Even though I can understand your property, your right to add stipulations it gives off a creepy feeling of controlling events from beyond the grave.
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  #556  
Old 08-03-2020, 10:57 AM
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I find it slightly ironic that when this will was written Prince Gustav wasn't even born and it was by no means certain that Prince Richard, himself young, would have a son at all.

This is often done in noble Families like this. Also in the Thurn and Taxis Family it was done like this. Or in the Prussia family by Emperor Wilhelm II.
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  #557  
Old 08-03-2020, 11:46 AM
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Thank you so much Kataryn for adding further clarity and opinion. I really hope the Constitutional Court declines to take the case. Also for your parallels to the Thurn & Taxis family and their own challenges as I had followed their situation at the time.
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  #558  
Old 09-08-2020, 06:16 PM
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Hello All,

So just to put my two cents in...I believe Carina and Gustav are still together - albeit from afar at the least. I follow her on IG and she did a “intro” on her new gardening account. This is what she said:


theexpatgardener:

"I've been tagged with #meetthegardener, in order to reveal a tiny bit about my #theexpatgardener self, beyond the pictures on my feed...

Here goes...
I'm Carina and I spend most of my time on the gorgeous Jurassic coast in Dorset, England. I have two dogs who are always by my side and a boyfriend in Germany (whose three dogs are always by his side). I write children's books and opened this account so I wouldn't spam my readers with endless flower pics.

My cottage garden of two years is my first attempt at gardening in a space that is entirely mine - and I've fallen completely in love with my little flowering patch of English coast. I'm having such fun becoming a plant nerd and feel deeply indebted to all my lovely U.K. friends and the gardening knowledge they have so generously shared with newbie gardener me. This wonderful gardening culture I've found in the U.K. has taken deep roots within my heart and I'll always carry the joy it has given me, no matter where else I may also garden in the future."

Anyway it seems like they’re still together, but she does hint of having a garden that is “entirely hers” makes it sound like she didn’t have the freedom to do that at Berleburg Schloss? Maybe other liberties were not allowed as well? Might be a reason for her leaving...who knows!

It’s still a strange situation to me.
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  #559  
Old 09-08-2020, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHAmie View Post
Hello All,

So just to put my two cents in...I believe Carina and Gustav are still together - albeit from afar at the least. I follow her on IG and she did a “intro” on her new gardening account. This is what she said:


theexpatgardener:

"I've been tagged with #meetthegardener, in order to reveal a tiny bit about my #theexpatgardener self, beyond the pictures on my feed...

Here goes...
I'm Carina and I spend most of my time on the gorgeous Jurassic coast in Dorset, England. I have two dogs who are always by my side and a boyfriend in Germany (whose three dogs are always by his side). I write children's books and opened this account so I wouldn't spam my readers with endless flower pics.

My cottage garden of two years is my first attempt at gardening in a space that is entirely mine - and I've fallen completely in love with my little flowering patch of English coast. I'm having such fun becoming a plant nerd and feel deeply indebted to all my lovely U.K. friends and the gardening knowledge they have so generously shared with newbie gardener me. This wonderful gardening culture I've found in the U.K. has taken deep roots within my heart and I'll always carry the joy it has given me, no matter where else I may also garden in the future."

Anyway it seems like they’re still together, but she does hint of having a garden that is “entirely hers” makes it sound like she didn’t have the freedom to do that at Berleburg Schloss? Maybe other liberties were not allowed as well? Might be a reason for her leaving...who knows!

It’s still a strange situation to me.
Interesting piece. So, it kind of confirms that they are still in a relationship but with her living in the UK and him in Germany. It makes you wonder what made her leave Berleburg... A writing retreat wouldn't take years...
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  #560  
Old 09-08-2020, 10:37 PM
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I have a question....in the US we have a thing called common law marriage, in some states. Two people live together for a certain amount Of time but never have a legal ceremony but are considered legally married.

Does Germany or England have this? If so, to prevent the common law marriage from being brought up by relatives maybe the separate residents, in 2 countries, keeps the relatives from filing complaints.


“Common law marriage is allowed in a minority of states. A common law marriage is a legally recognized marriage between two people who have not purchased a marriage license or had their marriage solemnized by a ceremony.” Not all states have this.

https://www.ncsl.org/research/human-...-marriage.aspx
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