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  #481  
Old 01-31-2020, 10:38 AM
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I read in newspapers in Norway and Denmark that when Prince Richard was ill she did not care that much about it. It was not her problem. Etc. This was mentioned in both serious and not that serious papers.
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  #482  
Old 01-31-2020, 10:49 AM
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In our day and age the conditions for the Berleburg estate might seem (too) strict but it is important to know that the complicated web of house laws, fideïcommissionary arrangements and testamentary conditions are exactly why the House Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg still is one of Germany's wealthiest Houses. Without all these hindrances, the estate was already completely fragmented over the many heirs. Schloss Berleburg would have gone the same way as Schloss Wittgenstein for the Hohenstein branch: to be sold and in use as boarding school: https://www.wittgenstein.de/
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  #483  
Old 01-31-2020, 10:54 AM
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I read in newspapers in Norway and Denmark that when Prince Richard was ill she did not care that much about it. It was not her problem. Etc. This was mentioned in both serious and not that serious papers.
well she's not mentioned in British newspapers, that I know of. THanks. It seems odd.
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  #484  
Old 01-31-2020, 12:15 PM
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I read in newspapers in Norway and Denmark that when Prince Richard was ill she did not care that much about it. It was not her problem. .

I have read on other Forums that she has difficulty to engage with ill people and illness.
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  #485  
Old 01-31-2020, 12:44 PM
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I have read on other Forums that she has difficulty to engage with ill people and illness.
Prince Rickard himself said that his wife had troubles handling his illness. He did not say that she didn't care about him.
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  #486  
Old 02-06-2020, 02:37 PM
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So do we know if Carina and Gustaf are still together or not? She seems to be firmly in England for the last 2 years or so and no mention of Gustaf anywhere on her IG account. And except for the funeral of Princess Richard, there’s no sightings of them together....
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  #487  
Old 02-07-2020, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by HRHAmie View Post
So do we know if Carina and Gustaf are still together or not? She seems to be firmly in England for the last 2 years or so and no mention of Gustaf anywhere on her IG account. And except for the funeral of Princess Richard, there’s no sightings of them together....
I've been wondering this myself. Carina seldom mentions Gustav on her IG but even she hasn't posted since Dec. 30. We saw Gustav at the annual hunt in Denmark in Nov. kind of blending in with the crowd but no sign of Carina. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lain-deer.html
https://images.app.goo.gl/zqZrdVjkb1cEMQib6
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  #488  
Old 02-15-2020, 04:49 PM
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I've been wondering this myself. Carina seldom mentions Gustav on her IG but even she hasn't posted since Dec. 30. We saw Gustav at the annual hunt in Denmark in Nov. kind of blending in with the crowd but no sign of Carina. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lain-deer.html

https://images.app.goo.gl/zqZrdVjkb1cEMQib6


This is true. She has since finished another book and is not working on anything new so where has she been?

If my eyes don’t betray me, I actually think the lady - standing behind the brunette woman in the short fur coat and leather skirt all the way to the right - in the first picture from the Daily Mail link you posted could be her? Her face is partially blocked as she’s turning to one side, but it looks like it could definitely be Carina.

If that’s true then they are probably still together although it’s weird that she wouldn’t have been at Princess Benedikte’s birthday celebrations or Princess Alexandra’s wedding last year. Those are big family events that I would assume would require her presence even though she is not Gustaf’s legal wife but a very firm partner to him.
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  #489  
Old 02-15-2020, 05:17 PM
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Agree.

It's very odd relationship.

But then again the marriage between Prince Richard and Benedikte wasn't exactly ordinary either! They lived for considerable periods of their lives apart. Prince Richard around his beloved Berleburg and Benedikte either performing duties in DK or attending equestrian events.
Perhaps that was the secret to their stable marriage?
And perhaps the extended periods apart is the secret to Gustav and Carina's relationship?
Some people simply need a lot of personal space, perhaps that applies to G&C?
I.e. if they lived together they would wear each other out?

You be the judge, because it's a relationship I personally have problems comprehending.
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  #490  
Old 02-15-2020, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHAmie View Post
This is true. She has since finished another book and is not working on anything new so where has she been?

If my eyes don’t betray me, I actually think the lady - standing behind the brunette woman in the short fur coat and leather skirt all the way to the right - in the first picture from the Daily Mail link you posted could be her? Her face is partially blocked as she’s turning to one side, but it looks like it could definitely be Carina.

If that’s true then they are probably still together although it’s weird that she wouldn’t have been at Princess Benedikte’s birthday celebrations or Princess Alexandra’s wedding last year. Those are big family events that I would assume would require her presence even though she is not Gustaf’s legal wife but a very firm partner to him.
Well done HRHAmie, I think you very well could be right! It does look like Carina and she has attended the hunt with Gustav in past years. Regarding Princess Benedikte's birthday celebrations, it was reported Gustav was ill, we don't really know anything further. Regarding Alexandra's marriage to Count Michael Preben Ahlefeldt-Laurvig-Bille this past May, Gustav attended but I've been unable to confirm if Carina was also there. https://www.purepeople.com/article/m...hael_a337472/1. (Scroll to 4th pic)
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  #491  
Old 02-15-2020, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Agree.

It's very odd relationship.

But then again the marriage between Prince Richard and Benedikte wasn't exactly ordinary either! They lived for considerable periods of their lives apart. Prince Richard around his beloved Berleburg and Benedikte either performing duties in DK or attending equestrian events.
Perhaps that was the secret to their stable marriage?
And perhaps the extended periods apart is the secret to Gustav and Carina's relationship?
Some people simply need a lot of personal space, perhaps that applies to G&C?
I.e. if they lived together they would wear each other out?

You be the judge, because it's a relationship I personally have problems comprehending.
Very insightful, Muhler. Also, since Prince Richard's passing a lot of things have changed considerably.
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  #492  
Old 02-15-2020, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Daly View Post
Well done HRHAmie, I think you very well could be right! It does look like Carina and she has attended the hunt with Gustav in past years. Regarding Princess Benedikte's birthday celebrations, it was reported Gustav was ill, we don't really know anything further. Regarding Alexandra's marriage to Count Michael Preben Ahlefeldt-Laurvig-Bille this past May, Gustav attended but I've been unable to confirm if Carina was also there. https://www.purepeople.com/article/m...hael_a337472/1. (Scroll to 4th pic)


You’re right, he was ill. That’s an acceptable excuse for him, but do you think if Carina still wanted to go she could have? Or is it only with him she could go? I’m not sure on the court protocol of the DRF in these instances. I’d assume since Queen Margarethe is so open Carina would be welcome to come by herself but maybe that doesn’t hold true for her sister as well? Although Princess Benedikte has been quite liberal and welcoming of the relationship thus far. I’m only asking bc I really don’t know.

As for Alexandra’s wedding, I remember Carina posting a photo of her on her god child’s bike so she was definitely in Denmark just not at the wedding. Maybe some sort of conflicting scheduling went on but I still find it odd she’d pick seeing her god daughter - seeing as it wasn’t a christening or anything - over her partner’s wedding.

It’s just so odd.....btw she hasn’t been to Schloss Bad Berleburg in quite some time either. I’d think if they were still together she would be posting from her IG account a lot more in Germany like she used to? 🤷🏼*♀️
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  #493  
Old 02-15-2020, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Agree.



It's very odd relationship.



But then again the marriage between Prince Richard and Benedikte wasn't exactly ordinary either! They lived for considerable periods of their lives apart. Prince Richard around his beloved Berleburg and Benedikte either performing duties in DK or attending equestrian events.

Perhaps that was the secret to their stable marriage?

And perhaps the extended periods apart is the secret to Gustav and Carina's relationship?

Some people simply need a lot of personal space, perhaps that applies to G&C?

I.e. if they lived together they would wear each other out?



You be the judge, because it's a relationship I personally have problems comprehending.


It could be! But I find it odd they have been living together for a long period of time now in Schloss Berleburg castle, yet now she decides to live full time in England while not posting anything about Gustaf. It looks to me like a breakup but it could be them just taking time apart...who knows but I agree with you, it’s definitely odd.
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  #494  
Old 02-15-2020, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Agree.

It's very odd relationship.

But then again the marriage between Prince Richard and Benedikte wasn't exactly ordinary either! They lived for considerable periods of their lives apart. Prince Richard around his beloved Berleburg and Benedikte either performing duties in DK or attending equestrian events.
Perhaps that was the secret to their stable marriage?
And perhaps the extended periods apart is the secret to Gustav and Carina's relationship?
Some people simply need a lot of personal space, perhaps that applies to G&C?
I.e. if they lived together they would wear each other out?

You be the judge, because it's a relationship I personally have problems comprehending.


I noticed that they have not be seen for a while but could it be that until the court case is resolved they are laying low as a couple? Wasn't one of the arguements against Gustav the fact that he is in a relationship with someone he could not marry according to his grandfather's will? I thought that came up somewhere.
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  #495  
Old 02-16-2020, 04:20 AM
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I noticed that they have not be seen for a while but could it be that until the court case is resolved they are laying low as a couple? Wasn't one of the arguements against Gustav the fact that he is in a relationship with someone he could not marry according to his grandfather's will? I thought that came up somewhere.
The judges look at the legal set up of the House properties not to the relationshipa of the individuals. Not even the conditions are at stake (the Chef of the House should marry a fellow protestant noble lady) but the possible workings of the Will as a Fideïcommis (binding the hands of a heir). In many countries outside the Anglosaxon sphere such a Fideïcommis is not allowed.

An example:

A = grandfather
B = father
C = son

A leaves 100.000 Euro to B, on condition he passes this amount to C (but can use the rent on the 100.000 Euro) . This is letting B inherit the 100.000 from A indeed but prohibiting him to use it as he, on his turn, has to pass it to C.

That is a real Fideïcommis: an inheritance in three stages, surpassing generations.

The complicated legal question however is if there is an unlawful fideïcommis here. The Fürst (Prince Gustav) has the complete usufruct of his enormous inheritance. He is not limited like heir B in the example I gave.

The only point is that there is a desire to keep the properties from generation to generation in the hands of the Fürst, respecting House Laws (the Fürst has to maintain the standing and prestige of the House by conducting a marriage within his rank and keep the House Protestant).

Does that affect Prince Gustav's human right to marry anyone he likes? Not at all. He can marry a Hindu bride from New Delhi tomorrow, if he wishes so. No problem. But then he breaks the House Laws and another Berleburg whom did marry according rank indeed will knock at the door and point to the legal arrangements.

The question is if it is illegal to have a condition attached to a Will. We have already seen that it is illegal to limit heir B for the benefit of heir C. But that is not the case here. Is it - for an example- allowed to have a Will which says that money must be kept in trust until the age of 25? Is it allowed to let your son inherit your house on condition that your wife/his mother, may live there for the rest of her life? These conditions are not usual.

The question is: is it reasonble that the Head of an aristocratic and protestant House has the usufruct of the House fortune under condition of keeping said House aristocratic and protestant? Note that the knife has two edges: exactly because of these very same House Laws, Gustav got an imposant ancestral estate, studded with unbelievable artworks, is one of Germany's biggest private landowners and enjoys great wealth.

It is a very complicated legal minefield with pitfalls. Gustav of course also wants to protect the centuries old estate and does not want all protection go, seeing it fragmented over dozens of heirs, subjected to hefty taxes and resulting in loosing the economic model of castle + lands + enterprises together maintaining the ancestral estate.
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  #496  
Old 02-16-2020, 08:17 AM
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Is he living alone in Berleburg Castle ?
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  #497  
Old 02-16-2020, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is a very complicated legal minefield with pitfalls. Gustav of course also wants to protect the centuries old estate and does not want all protection go, seeing it fragmented over dozens of heirs, subjected to hefty taxes and resulting in loosing the economic model of castle + lands + enterprises together maintaining the ancestral estate.
Thank you for your description! And from what I did read the case is even more complicated, because it is in front of a "Landwirtschaftsgericht" [1], a civil court for agrarian issues, which goes back to the Nazi jurisdiction. And part of the case is the question, if Prince Gustav is capable to lead such a big agrarian enterprise[2].

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landwirtschaftsgericht
[2] https://www.siegener-zeitung.de/sieg...l-euro_a114808
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  #498  
Old 02-16-2020, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The judges look at the legal set up of the House properties not to the relationshipa of the individuals. Not even the conditions are at stake (the Chef of the House should marry a fellow protestant noble lady) but the possible workings of the Will as a Fideïcommis (binding the hands of a heir). In many countries outside the Anglosaxon sphere such a Fideïcommis is not allowed.

An example:

A = grandfather
B = father
C = son

A leaves 100.000 Euro to B, on condition he passes this amount to C (but can use the rent on the 100.000 Euro) . This is letting B inherit the 100.000 from A indeed but prohibiting him to use it as he, on his turn, has to pass it to C.

That is a real Fideïcommis: an inheritance in three stages, surpassing generations.

The complicated legal question however is if there is an unlawful fideïcommis here. The Fürst (Prince Gustav) has the complete usufruct of his enormous inheritance. He is not limited like heir B in the example I gave.

The only point is that there is a desire to keep the properties from generation to generation in the hands of the Fürst, respecting House Laws (the Fürst has to maintain the standing and prestige of the House by conducting a marriage within his rank and keep the House Protestant).

Does that affect Prince Gustav's human right to marry anyone he likes? Not at all. He can marry a Hindu bride from New Delhi tomorrow, if he wishes so. No problem. But then he breaks the House Laws and another Berleburg whom did marry according rank indeed will knock at the door and point to the legal arrangements.

The question is if it is illegal to have a condition attached to a Will. We have already seen that it is illegal to limit heir B for the benefit of heir C. But that is not the case here. Is it - for an example- allowed to have a Will which says that money must be kept in trust until the age of 25? Is it allowed to let your son inherit your house on condition that your wife/his mother, may live there for the rest of her life? These conditions are not usual.

The question is: is it reasonble that the Head of an aristocratic and protestant House has the usufruct of the House fortune under condition of keeping said House aristocratic and protestant? Note that the knife has two edges: exactly because of these very same House Laws, Gustav got an imposant ancestral estate, studded with unbelievable artworks, is one of Germany's biggest private landowners and enjoys great wealth.

It is a very complicated legal minefield with pitfalls. Gustav of course also wants to protect the centuries old estate and does not want all protection go, seeing it fragmented over dozens of heirs, subjected to hefty taxes and resulting in loosing the economic model of castle + lands + enterprises together maintaining the ancestral estate.

Thanks so much for the clarification, it's so terribly complicated.
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  #499  
Old 02-16-2020, 05:51 PM
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Thank you to both Duc_et_Pair and Victor1319. This is very complicated.
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