Prince Gustav and Carina Axelsson, Current Events Part 2: Aug 2009 - June 2022


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Actually the grandfather asked for both, nobility and aryan. But if the Problem with Carina were that the were not "aryan", than the court would rule against this racist part of the will. The point remains that Carina is not of noble decent.

By the way, I never heard that Carina has Jewish ancesters (that is how the Nazis defined "non-aryan" people). She probably could be defined as "aryan" if that were still a valid catogory today (which it isn't, nobody in their right senses cares about it anymore, and it certainly would hold in a German law court).
 
The grandfather was a Nazi, plain and simple. It is not "nobility" he
asked for "Ayrans". In today's day and age it is disgusting. Frankly, the family not trying to fighting this is disgusting. Inheriting a title from a Nazi is ignominious. They should have run. I suspect their is money involved.
But you also have to consider that the Weill was written during the Nazi Time in Germany. If the late Fürst would have come back from War and written another will he probaly would have left the aryan part out.
 
Being aryan wasn't just a question of being of jewish descent to the nazis other peoples like the Slavs, Roma etc... was also considered non-aryan. To complicate it even more the nazis could make people "honorary aryans" if they where considered important enough to the Reich. It happened mostly to officers in the German army of partly Jewish descent or when the wife of (an prominent enough) officer had Jewish descent.
 
:previous: Yeah, and the most ironic thing about all that Aryan nonsense is that, as far as I understand, the most pure aryans alive today are Northern Indians.

And as such Gypsies are more Aryan than tall, blonde, blue eyed, nordic types.:whistling:
 
Yeah, logics have never counted amoung the strength of the Nazis.

As a German I feel terribly sorry and ashamed about all the crimes commited by them. But all this is not the topic of this thread. I just wanted to stress that in Carina's case her not being noble excludes her from the will.
 
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You are right, Tilia C.

To be cynical this will smells more like a safeguard against a poor golddigger, or common riff raff and ensuring the social standard.
Secondary to prevent someone to marry someone of a, shall we say, undesirable skin color. In that way the grandfather probably wasn't much different than the majority of Europeans of that age.

What is interesting is that such a will, that clearly discriminate against at least non-nobles, is valid. The Aryan bit could probably be circumnavigated in court, but is a condition of nobility discrimination or not when it comes to inheritance?
Perhaps someone with a knowledge of wills can explain?
 
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As far as I've heard at the time it was quite the standard in the third reich to have an "aryan clause" in wills since a lot of properties could only be inherited by "aryans". (I might even have read it here on the forums somewhere)
 
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You are right, Tilia C.

To be cynical this will smells more like a safeguard against a poor golddigger, or common riff raff and ensuring the social standard.
Secondary to prevent someone to marry someone of a, shall we say, undesirable skin color. In that way the grandfather probably wasn't much different than the majority of Europeans of that age.

What is interesting is that such a will, that clearly discriminate against at least non-nobles, is valid. The Aryan bit could probably be circumnavigated in court, but is a condition of nobility discrimination or not when it comes to inheritance?
Perhaps someone with a knowledge of wills can explain?

It is a sort of Fidei Commisum construction which is an inheritance system based on Roman Law aimed to keep the bulk of a family's heritage unfragmented for the benefit and usufruct of the (head of) the family. The family as a whole (rather than individual members) was the juridical owner of the heritage. It is a testamentary obligation for the heirs to keep the heritage and, on their turn, pass it in at least the same state to their successive heirs.

Like in many European countries, also in Germany the Fidei Commisum was ended (in 1938). This because such a system blocks the proper workings of the general heritage regulation that all children have the right on an equal part of the heritage. For historic Fidei Commisum-regulations there was a period to change it. Many families erected Family Foundations or made remainders for usufruct. So to see the inheritance of Prince Gustav also had a remainder. The German Law allows Nießbrauch an einer Erbschaft (Usufruct of a heritage), § 1089 of the Civic Code, set by special remainder.

For example, if the owner of property makes a grant of that property to his eldest grandon, then that grandson becomes the remainderman, he is entitled to a future interest, the remainder. Such a remainder can have requirements for beneficiaries for purposes of the trust, he has to be 'qualified’. The requirement that a remainderman for a large historic noble heritage dequalifies when not engaging in an Ebenbürtige marriage is not that weird and outrageous for a heritage which mainly consists of ancestral estates, domains, lands and properties with the aim to keep the high historic noble standing and patrimonium of a House.

Gustav is in not at all hindranced, he can marry Ms Axelsson if he wants. He is not the only Sayn-Wittgenstein walking around. There are other gentlemen who do meet the requirements in the Will and they will surely fight in Court, pointing to the fact that Gustav did not 'qualify' and this means that the estate, should go to the most senior closest male relative who does completely fit inside the set conditions and requirements. There lies the problem. I believe that when Prince Richard dies and Gustav is the final owner, he can eventually change the remainder. But Carina will then be too old for children. That means that the inheritance still will go to the most senior male relative fitting in the original remainder.

:flowers:

The younger brother of Prince Gustav's father is the most senior male relative. He however married twice with ladies not meeting the requirements. The second most senior male relative is Bernhart Fürst zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein who married Katharina, daughter of Max Graf von Podewilz-Dürniz and of Elisabeth Freifrau von Hirschberg. They have a young son, Wenzel Erbprinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein.
 
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All seems to be Prince Richard fault. I don't like this Prince who does not want his Son to be happy. I may understand why Princess Benedicte is so often in Denmark!
 
All seems to be Prince Richard fault. I don't like this Prince who does not want his Son to be happy. I may understand why Princess Benedicte is so often in Denmark!

Prince Richard can do nothing about this. His father made the Will and became missing in 1944, when Prince Richard was just 10 years old. Prince Richard had to wait 25 years (until 1969) to have his father officially dead and so becoming the Fürst zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg.

He inherited nothing from his father. To escape succession taxes, his father has granted everything to his eldest grandson but gave Prince Richard the Nießbrauch of the whole estate, that is: executing ownership rights without being the owner. As his son is the beneficiant of his father's Will, and not Prince Richard himself, he can do nothing.

:flowers:

That we seldom see Prince Richard is because he is a man who likes to live in the background, he dislikes a public life. The latest years the Prince seems to struggle with his health as well. He will be busy enough managing his (son's) enormous estate.

Pic: Schloss Berleburg, note the swimming pool at the left and the dressage field (for horseriding) at the right http://www.klaes-w.de/fotos/luftbilder/burgen_und_schloesser/hb_badbberleburg08092183.jpg
 
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Not to be pedantic, but doesn't Prince Richard refers to himself as a Prinz rather than a Fürst? I remember him mentioning in one of his interviews (I suppose, it was the one he gave to HR couple of years ago) that since Fürst is a reigning title and Germany already has a "reigning" Head of State, namely the President, it would be "illegal" (his words) for him or any other German noble to use the title of Fürst.

Historically, he is the 6th Fürst.

Also, the image I gained from couple of his interviews was that he is a very "singular" man.
 
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All seems to be Prince Richard fault. I don't like this Prince who does not want his Son to be happy. I may understand why Princess Benedicte is so often in Denmark!
As already explained above, it is not Prince Richard's fault. Also, I don't see that Gustav and Carina are unhappy. They aren't married, so what? There are loads of couples in current day Germany, who are unmarried but living in an long-term relationship. There is no social stigma anymore. And from what I know, Carina alread is in her mid-forties. So they probably have no thoughts about children anymore.
 
Carina is a very happy lady the way her life is, she is in love and still does her own thing in writing books. In other words Carina like so many women today don't need a ring to have the love of a man. She is more then able to take care of herself and does. She is one very strong independent intelligent lady........besides being beautiful.
 
Not to be pedantic, but doesn't Prince Richard refers to himself as a Prinz rather than a Fürst? I remember him mentioning in one of his interviews (I suppose, it was the one he gave to HR couple of years ago) that since Fürst is a reigning title and Germany already has a "reigning" Head of State, namely the President, it would be "illegal" (his words) for him or any other German noble to use the title of Fürst.

Historically, he is the 6th Fürst.

Also, the image I gained from couple of his interviews was that he is a very "singular" man.

With becoming the Fürst in 1969 I meant that finally his father was officially declared dead after 25 years and so Prince Richard became the Head of the House Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg. I only used that word to designate him from the others as the one and the only chef.

:flowers:

I know that the title Fürst is no longer officially used. Still I see lots of references, for an example to Fürstin Gloria (von T&T) while she never can be the Fürstin as she is the widow of the previous Fürst.

:flowers:
 
If this question has been answered before, please feel free to direct me to the appropriate post:


When Gustav inherits the title will he then be able to marry Carina or do the terms of his grandfather's will continue into perpetuity?
 
That is a good question. The grandfather, the Nazi, controls, this man's life which is sad. So, he has to hope his father dies.......very sad.
 
That is a good question. The grandfather, the Nazi, controls, this man's life which is sad. So, he has to hope his father dies.......very sad.


I'd love to hear a legal opinion on this. I would think that the new Furst (Gustav) would be a able to write his own terms since the problem is that Prince Richard isn't the Furst. What a sad and twisted story.

I admire Princess Benedickte for treating Carina as a daughter-in-law.


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This is the first time I'd heard of this situation. Sounds like something out of a Victorian novel..absolutely riduculous. Having said that, I know in my husband's g. grandfather's will it had a statement that if his wife didn't like their daughter's choice of husband she'd be disinherited.
 
That is a good question. The grandfather, the Nazi, controls, this man's life which is sad. So, he has to hope his father dies.......very sad.


Why would Gustav have hope if his father died? This sounds very sad and unfair that Gustav is waiting for his father's death in order to marry her. I really hope that Prince Richard will live long.
 
I'd love to hear a legal opinion on this. I would think that the new Furst (Gustav) would be a able to write his own terms since the problem is that Prince Richard isn't the Furst. What a sad and twisted story.

I admire Princess Benedickte for treating Carina as a daughter-in-law.


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I 'm not sure that Princess Benedikte accepted Carina as a daughter-in-law. In an interview Carina insulted Gustav's parents and siblings a few years ago.
 
Well, the whole matter has nothing to do with the father, Prince Richard, so his dying or not dying won't change a thing. It was Princes Richards father, Gustav's grandfather, who wrote in his will that the eldest son of his eldest son should be the heir. (By skipping one generation they would also skip inheritance tax for one generation. Imagine that heir after heir dies during the war and each time tax has to be payed! It was better to postpone the time when it was settled on who the heir would be to when he was grown up.)


The Prince Gustav Albrecht (the grand-father) was not a particularly Nazi type and he was not member of the Nazi party. He even bought the Jewish cemetory in Bad Berleburg. This being property of the Prince protected the cemetory from Nazi destruction, it remained intact. From what I know the property was given back to the community after WWII.


But it seems he was somewhat influenced by the ideology of his age and wrote in his will that the eldest son of his eldest son can only inherit if he marries a noble and aryan girl. Nowadays the aryan bit of the will would not hold in a German court. But Carina is not a noblewomen, and the court ruled that the late Prince was free to put this into his will.


The stupid thing about this is, that the will was badly phrased. He wrote that if the eldest son of the eldest son did not marry the right women, the next in line should be the heir. That way the special condition does only apply to Prince Gustav, not to the other potential heirs. I doubt that is what the grandfather wanted, but stupidly that's how he put it down. So if Gustav and Carina marry, the estate will go to a cousin who is married to a commoner.


Anyway, I think that Carina is well past forty, so they won't have any thoughts of founding a family anymore. It really doesn't matter that much whether they are married or not.
 
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Anyway, I think that Carina is well past forty, so they won't have any thoughts of founding a family anymore. It really doesn't matter that much whether they are married or not.

... doesn't matter?

He might still one day regret to have no children of his own and decide to dump Carina. There are other examples of late fathers. Not an easy situation for Carina, I would say, without official marriage certificate.
 
I 'm not sure that Princess Benedikte accepted Carina as a daughter-in-law. In an interview Carina insulted Gustav's parents and siblings a few years ago.


I actually remember an interview where Princess B referred to her as her daughter-in-law. Also, Carina has attended royal events in a family tiara --- that must signify some level of acceptance.


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... doesn't matter?

He might still one day regret to have no children of his own and decide to dump Carina. There are other examples of late fathers. Not an easy situation for Carina, I would say, without official marriage certificate.
He also might dump her with a marriage certificate, who can ever rule out divorce? And Carina is a strong and emancipated women, she does not depend on Gustav.

I mean they might well like to be married, but not being married certainly doesn't ruin their lives.
 
It is sad they don't have Children ; this Situation is to me like Prince Bertil and Lilian Craig.
 
And they will not already have them, giving that Carina is 45 or 46 years old. Sad, in fact...
 
It is a pity that they do not continue the dynasty. But there are many people who don't have children, for various reasons. Sometimes people really suffer from it, others don't mind, have learned to enjoy their lives anyway, or were never keen on having kids. Imo the most important thing is that they have a good and happy relationship.
 
In a recent interview Carina admitted to develop thick skin against criticisms.

http://dearteenme.com/?p=9036

Carina also judged parents, including hers,too.

"Find a way to indulge your passions and don’t give a thought to what anyone else, parents included – maybe, even, parents especially – say or think."

"Which leads me to the second thing I’d tell you: Develop thick skin."

Carina said that she hadn't liked school either.

"two hours of reading (on my OWN and with a book of MY choice) could cancel out six hours of sitting in class listening to a lot of blah blah blah."
 
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