Prince Gustav and Carina Axelsson, Current Events & Discussion 1: July 2007-Aug 2009

[GlitteringTiaras]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

Just saw that the Berleburgs have very good chances to annull the will.

Here's a quote form our Highest federal Court (for questions concerning our constitution) from the Leiningen-case.

"Allerdings sei zu beachten, dass der Verlust der Nacherbenstellung nicht allein durch die Eheschließung mit einer nicht „ebenbürtigen“ Partnerin oder in sonstiger Weise durch Nichterfüllung von Kriterien ständisch-sozialer Herkunft bewirkt werde, die Folge jedoch dann eintrete, wenn der herrschende Fürst die Zustimmung zu einer konkreten Ehe versage."

The Court said that it's ok to disinherit the Hereditary prince because it's not only the rules from the House laws but in addition the marriage happened against the descision of the ruling prince without his consent. So rules stated in wills and contracts and house laws are not enough, there is need of a ruling against an existing person, not against any woman who does not fit into the picture.

Karl-Emich of Leiningen could have done something on choosing a wife his father would consent to. It's in a way ironic that this wife for whom the prince lost all divorced him shortly afterwards and married the Aga Khan, to become his "Begum Inara".... Already divorced again, the lady...
Maybe that's why he finally signed a contract with his brother, accepting his father's decision and getting an allowance ever since. Could it be that the old guy was not so wrong after all?

But back to prince Gustav: as he never had a chance to present his grandfather a tangible person who the then ruling prince could accept or not, there is a very good chance that the Court will annull these conditions, sayin g that an abstract condition is not enough, that a palpaple decision would have been needed.

Wow, now that sounds promising for Gustav down the line.

Jo, where are you finding this information? Is there a German equivalent of Lexus Nexis? Or another archive and/or research tool?

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by GlitteringTiaras

Wow, now that sounds promising for Gustav down the line.

Jo, where are you finding this information? Is there a German equivalent of Lexus Nexis? Or another archive and/or research tool?

Well, I google around using terms from the law system. As I studied law I know how to find things about already published cases. But the Berleburg-case still is not online... I guess I have to call them and ask....

[LauraMCS]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

Unfortunately I couldn't trace a copy of the will in its wording - which is important because there is a difference between "being noble" (adelig) or being noble by birth (von adeliger Geburt). Queen Margarete could eg ennoble Carina, but that doesn't make her "von adeliger Geburt" in the legal sense...

How could Margrethe ennoble Carina? Neither she nor Gustav are Danish citizens?

[H.M. Margrethe]

Originally Posted by LauraMCS

How could Margrethe ennoble Carina? Neither she nor Gustav are Danish citizens?

I think that Queen Margrethe is abel to grant a titel to every person as she pleas aslon the titel is her in Denmark.
When she and Princeconsort Henrik got married ther was a question if King Frederik 9, woud grant Henriks parrents a titel and the same question came back when Frederik and Joachim got married to their brieds.

[GlitteringTiaras]

These people have collected a couple of photos of Carina and Gustav at Princess Isabella's christening including this one.

[morhange]

They are such a lovely couple

If Gustav cannot marry Carina, or if they don't have any sons, who is next in line to succeed as head of the SWB family? Does Prince Richard have any brothers? Or could Princess Alexandra's son, Count Friedrich Richard, inherit?

[GlitteringTiaras]

If that were to be the case, Alexandra's son would inherit the estate, title, the whole magilla.

[stephanyjml]

I certainly hope that the will can be annulled. I wish them all the luck. It is very obvious that Carina is not only accepted by the entire family but is considered a valuable member.

[NotAPretender]

I have to say that this was incredible to read. I had no idea that the inheritance issues around taxation were so onerous that foresighted aristos and royals took to leaving their estates to imaginary decendents!

I can see how the "Aryan" issue is terrible inflammatory. There was a library in Alexandria, VA which was left to the city as long as it was never used to educate "colored." The will which left the property to the city was executed in the late 1800's. In the years of the latter part of the 20th century, a concerted effort was made to "un-entail" the will, overriding the directions so that it could be used by all. Last I heard, the will was being upheld although the current decendents of the original legator wished it overturned.

When last I personally saw it, it was in use as a bar. No formal education of anyone being done there!

I appreciate the scholarship on this forum; it's phenomenal.

[NotAPretender]

Would that not mean that Hereditary Prince Gustav's father:

Richard, 6th Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg,

would inherit the estate of his own father,

Gustav Albrecht, 5th Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, whose will is the source of all of this debate?

We've all been viewing Hereditary Prince Gustav as a wonderful "catch" because of the money he has inherited from his grandfather. But his own father, a legitimate heir to the fortune, is still alive and already in place.

Assuming that he and his father are on good terms, it is likely that he will be the ultimate heir to the money, castles, and all the good stuff we are presuming is part of his inheritance.

But....

Won't the "new" inheritance go through another taxation event? At least one, when the "new" heir (the Hereditary Prince's father) dies and leaves the fortune to Gustav. Possibly two, if the German tax courts find that (assuming again that the will is overturned,) the inheritance from the 5th Prince to the 6th (albeit nearly 40 years after the 5th prince was declared dead) is also a taxable event.

Estate planning gone awry.

[NotAPretender]

According to the official Web site of the Danish Monarchy:

The Danish Monarchy - The Royal House - HRH Princess Benedikte

The date of death listed for Gustav Albrecht, 5th Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg is 1944, not the date of his legally declared death of November 29, 1969. Presumably, 1944 was the date that the Prince went missing.

I find this topic very intriguing, as one might see.

[GlitteringTiaras]

Two beautiful new photo of Carina at Grasten via Isifa.

[bbb]

very sweet photo, she's a beauty with a wonderful smile. it's a shame they aren't married with little kids of their own on the steps by now. she seems a lovely lady and loved and accepted by the family and they seem very happy, it's just unfair they can't be married and i'm sorry for them.

[lise]

Something has got to be done about the will. Gustav and Carina seem so happy together they should be allowed to marry.

[BurberryBrit]

Originally Posted by carlota

that's such a shame that gustav and carina can't get married! it's annoying how they still refer to the aryan system... it's not like we are in WW2 still! poor them, i just hope the courts give consent. they look like a really cute couple to be denied marriage just because carina has brown hair!

Well, it's because she's not white (or full blooded white). I think if I was Carina, I'd be somewhat embarassed to be at royal events because everyone knows they can't get married and are essentially "shacking up" or "living in sin." I know this will probably upset people, but I'm old fashioned. But I understand Scandanavian countries are not as hung up about those things. Even though this should be understood, I'll say it anyway: just my opinion!

[dazzling]

Originally Posted by BurberryBrit

Well, it's because she's not white (or full blooded white). I think if I was Carina, I'd be somewhat embarassed to be at royal events because everyone knows they can't get married and are essentially "shacking up" or "living in sin." I know this will probably upset people, but I'm old fashioned. But I understand Scandanavian countries are not as hung up about those things. Even though this should be understood, I'll say it anyway: just my opinion!

I dont see why she should somewhat be embarassed because to me, it seems they are proving to everyone that whether they like it or not & even if they cant get married, theyre still happy together... Maybe with time, this would change things and would be allowed to get married, who knows.
But honestly, good for them that theyre still together & its nice to see her at royal events

[BurberryBrit]

Originally Posted by dazzling

I dont see why she should somewhat be embarassed because to me, it seems they are proving to everyone that whether they like it or not & even if they cant get married, theyre still happy together... Maybe with time, this would change things and would be allowed to get married, who knows.
But honestly, good for them that theyre still together & its nice to see her at royal events

I have nothing against her personally. She seems quite nice. But I couldn't be with a man who couldn't marry me and still act like a wife. Even though they seem committed, there are no guarantees in life. She is obviously going to wait it out because she loves him. I wish her luck.

[Alison20]

I wouldn't think that Pss Alexandra's son could inherit. As I understand it is not the case in Germany that titles go through the women. I would think it would be Prince Richard's brother and his son (provided that both their marriages fitted the criterion).

However, perhaps it would revert back to what I would call the 'rightful' person to inherit - Pr Richard himself. Since he married someone who fitted the rules exactly (Pss Benedikte of Denmark) there could surely be no exception. Then he would, I presume, be able to leave the title and the estate to whoever he wished.

[morhange]

Gustav's cousin Sebastian has a little boy named Ferdinand who was born in 2004, and that was by a non-noble, and his father, who is Prince Richard's brother, Robin, also married beneath him, but from the looks of the Online Gotha, they are bolded which means the marriages were okay, or at least I guess they get to keep their titles?

Does the will say that the wife has to be of Anglo-Saxon heritage only? Is there anything about equal birth? If Prince Robin and his son married and still have their titles, is it because they aren't in line to inherit? What if Gustav goes ahead with the marriage and he's out, who would be next, if they go to Robin and Sebastian and discount their marriages?

[Daneborn]

Originally Posted by BurberryBrit

Well, it's because she's not white (or full blooded white). I think if I was Carina, I'd be somewhat embarassed to be at royal events because everyone knows they can't get married and are essentially "shacking up" or "living in sin." I know this will probably upset people, but I'm old fashioned. But I understand Scandanavian countries are not as hung up about those things. Even though this should be understood, I'll say it anyway: just my opinion!

It puts Carina in no different position from e.g. Daniel Westling, the friend of Crown Princess Victoria. Or Mette-Marit, when she was living with Crown Prince Haakon in an ordinary flat in Oslo.

Maybe this process it's good for Carina and Gustav. It tests the relationship somewhat and if you planning on staying together for life some years of postponing the unevitable can't be wrong.