Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family

[BELTRANEJA]

No, not in 1983 when a controversy arose , on the last name then was when he started to say it was Glubsburg because it was the surname of Danish Royal House. I had an interview with Constantine in 1983 (because was born Teodora) where he says the surname of the Danish royal house is not Glubsburg, Glubsburgis a title that belonged to a territory that is now Germany, but this was not the name.Constantino said in that interview that Greece was Republic he didn´t used the title of King .
I think:
The answer must be in a project that should be developed by a school or Heraldry study to determine which was surname, stripped of titles of nobility ... The various studies of schools of Heraldy, have been very contradictory answers, because what logic is that would have unanimity in determine it , the surname of the Glubsburg,
the title of King, depends of the states, Greece is a Republic.
In European , the monarchical magazines, as is logic, say King but this is not a valid for the state. In the interview at any time was not used the word king, and was for a magazine monarchy.

 

[GRspecialforces]

But shouldn't they both at some point of had Greek Citizenship, they married there, they lived there.

yes, of course they had greek citizenship. i thought this didn't want confirmation.

gregory

 

[snowflower]

The thing is that the family really needs to adopt a surname because otherwise they will probably face legal problems in the future. Right now they might have diplomatic passports from Denmark but who knows how long they will be able to keep them. At some point the Danish government might protest really hard because after all a diplomatic passport has to be given in very specific situations. And who knows if in 50 years or so Christian will be willing to assist his great aunt's expanding family in such a way.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

I believe that the end of the law 1994 is consider the entire dynasty as foreign. This has been made by a democratic country, the law reflects the will of the people,

Following this law, the ancestors and the same King of Greece are become foreigners, they are stateless, at the request of the family, carrying as proof the law that deprives them of the consideration of Greeks, the Danish Government accepts that the first member of the dynasty, George was Danish and following it, after the disappearance of Greek citizenship by law in Greece, they given passports to members of the Greek Royal Family of Denmark.

Not the first time this happened, the Queen Olga of Greece died with Danish passport. The Queen had to seek assistance from Denmark to leave Russia, Denmark gave her and other members of the Russian royal family passport, she died years later with Danish passport,
http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae16/RFAMILY_G/simbolica.jpg


I don´t know the name that appears in the passport of the Greek royal family, this could be anything from Glusbsburg to any other including the Queen federika surname, this passport is legal in Greece, Denmark and Europa.

The Greek law has a purpose regarded as foreign to the Family , it expresses the will of Greece who is a democratic republic.
Constantine said that:
He respects Greek law that is expressing the will of the Greek people.


Regarding the International Olympic Committee is an independent international body to Member States and is governed by internal rules. when Constantine had won the Olympic gold medal, he had passport of Greece.The Olympic Committee is an international Internacional organ INDEPENDENT of the governed, it has their own rules.

The passport of the King of Greece can not cause problems in the future because it has received approval from the European Commission

 

[snowflower]

I am not so sure Beltraneja because the passport King Constantine holds it is not a regular Danish passport but a diplomatic one and there are different standards for handing those. So I believe that one day (not in Margrethe's lifespan I believe) a member of the Danish Parliament might start questioning his right to hold a diplomatic passport and not a regular one.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

I do not believe it, because the European Commission monitored the passport. The situation was complicated because the European laws forbidding to leave to the person in position of statelessness, Constantine did not want more controversy and he requested the passport of Denmark, Denmark not opposed to it.The organs of the European Union were satisfied, the problem was resolved

 

[Medousa]

Oh well,he was Greek while winning the gold at the Olympics but member of a foreign dynasty when the problems began.Anyway,although i think that nobody should doubt about his Greekness since he was born and raised here and et cetera,i think it's best for them living abroad.Nobody can live in a place with all this hate around him.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

Greek sentiment but with Danish passport.

 

[Medousa]

^ Yes,something like that.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Oh well,he was Greek while winning the gold at the Olympics but member of a foreign dynasty when the problems began.Anyway,although i think that nobody should doubt about his Greekness since he was born and raised here and et cetera,i think it's best for them living abroad.Nobody can live in a place with all this hate around him.

I don't think the Greek people hate King Constantine anymore. In fact, he goes places when in Greece and nobody cares. And even with a Danish passport, he can live in Greece permanently if he so chooses.

I do not believe it, because the European Commission monitored the passport. The situation was complicated because the European laws forbidding to leave to the person in position of statelessness, Constantine did not want more controversy and he requested the passport of Denmark, Denmark not opposed to it.The organs of the European Union were satisfied, the problem was resolved

There is no central European Union authority overseeing passports for the simple reason that the European Union has not yet been politically integrated.
Sunflower is right when she talks about a special-status diplomatic passport issued by Denmark to King Constantine and his family. It is a courtesy diplomatic passport and not equivalent or equal to that granted to Danish citizens.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

The European Commissions have assigned the function of monitoring compliance with the law of the European Union."upholding the Union's treaties ".
European Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The situation of stateless is prohibited by Community law. The mission of the commission is to ensure that compliance with the Treaty by States members.
The Commission acted on the basis of its compliance function of monitoring law of the European Union. the problem was resolved, Denmark agree to grant a passport, the situation of stateless disappeared.

I think that the problem could have been resolved, the Government of Greece could have gave a new passport, but doesn´t it. Proper would had been that Greece, who it left to a persons in a situation of stateless, person without a passport, would have been required to return or gave a new passport to these persons.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

The European Commissions have assigned the function of monitoring compliance with the law of the European Union."upholding the Union's treaties ".
European Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The situation of stateless is prohibited by Community law. The mission of the commission is to ensure that compliance with the Treaty by States members.
The Commission acted on the basis of its compliance function of monitoring law of the European Union. the problem was resolved, Denmark agree to grant a passport, the situation of stateless disappeared.

I think that the problem could have been resolved, the Government of Greece could have gave a new passport, but doesn´t it. Proper would had been that Greece, who it left to a persons in a situation of stateless, person without a passport, would have been required to return or gave a new passport to these persons.

The Eurpean Union never got involved or interested in the case of King Constantine. If there is a specific document pertaining to the case of King Constantine, I would appreciate it if you presented it to us.
Most European countries have asylum laws for people persecuted in the countries of their origin due to religious, political or ohter beliefs and reasons and there is also a European Court of Human Rights.
With respect to why the Greek Government has not issued a passport to King Constantine, I reviewed past posts herein which amply explain the reason, in essence the requirement by the Greek Constitution that all citizens have a surname of their choice. To this, King Constantine insists that he had no surname. However, this does not suffice as an explanation on his part since no one stops him from adopting one of his choice.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

You do not confuse the laws of asylum and refuge with the situation of stateless, this is different. The Commission did not intervened, was moderator, the Commission would have acted if the king had put the lawsuit before the Court of Luxembourg, the court of Strasbourg is the human right, the Luxembourg is the European Union. The King constantine did not wanted put the lawsuit. This is different, the Court of Straboug, Human rights and Court of Luxemboug, Treaty on European union

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

You do not confuse the laws of asylum and refuge with the situation of stateless, this is different. The Commission did not intervened, was moderator, the Commission would have acted if the king had put the lawsuit before the Court of Luxembourg, the court of Strasbourg is the human right, the Luxembourg is the European Union. The King constantine did not wanted put the lawsuit. This is different, the Court of Straboug, Human rights and Court of Luxemboug, Treaty on European union

The European Union did neither intervene nor moderate for it has neither authority nor right to do so and it would never try to interfere for, insofar as it (the EU, that is) is concerned, King Constantine is just another citizen or non-citizen like you and me.
Last but not least, the country of his birth and origin, Greece, that is, has not rejected his application for citizenship in its merits but because he refused to acknoledge the Constitution which requires ALL Greek citizens to have a surname or adopt one of their own free will and choice. Thus, the reason he did not take his case to a European Court is because he had no case of discrimination to argue against, thus his claim would have been dropped as non-meritorious.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

"The European Union did neither intervene nor moderate"mistake, example: 5 months ago, a leader of Sahara, at the airport in Lanzarote, Spain asked the Government of Spain to be in situation of stateless because Morocco had denied her passport. The Spanish Minister of Foreign Affairs had to give explanations to the European Union on the situation of this woman. Spain at the Commission explained that this lady was not in a situation of stateless because she was Moroccan passport, Spain had to explain to the European union complied with international conventions about stateless. The European Union, required Marocco Solution to the problem. . The King of Greece may have recourse to the courts, but did not, for what? . The law(1994) was just or unjust, was the will of the Greek people, and this was that the dynasty will be considered from their foreign origins. For law of 1994 that he was born in Greece is irrelevant, and non-existent by law ..... He assumed the Danish passport, the passport is valid in Greece and consistent with its law of 1994 and is valid in the European Union ... What is for Constatine more secure to have a passport danish, english or a greek passport ? A example: If he would travel to a foreing country and in this country would have a revolution, he would have to leave the country, for it, with his passport(Denmark, Engand or Greece) He would have to request be evacuated by the embassy that corresponds to your passport. Which of the three countries he would give greater guarantees to be evacuated?and less? The use of the law of 1994, in my opinion was an exaggeration, to use the law and not administrative channels, I think this was a exageration. The law against a person and his family . Today I think there is not any problem between the Royal Family and the Greek State, the passport is no problem. This is not an issue, it is accepted in Greece because it is consistent with the objectives of the Act 1994 and is valid throughout the European Union and abroad.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

I have difficulty understanding the point you are trying to make here.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

The Union Europea is moderator in this type of problem, in Spain and with others countries of the Union. If the Government of Greece wanted to delete the surname of former King and his family, they did not need a law, they could have done it administratively, for example, when the former king would had to renew his passport, they could deleted the passport. This is obviously,they used the law because they knew that this would have a greater impact. A stateless person is a person without a passport. A passport is for travel, a person can not travel without passport, it also serves to request diplomatic protection to an embassy. When a person has a problem in a foreign country, luggage theft, theft of money, armed conflict in that country and the airports is closed, you can not leave the country. .... People may seek help from the embassy of your passport , The embassy are obligated to help, to leave the country .... .If one day you have a problem in a foreign country go to your embassy and ask to help , . In the hypothetical case: if you would be a member of the royal family and would have a problem abroad. Which would be the embassy that give you more guarantees to help ??and which less?Denmark, England or Greece.

 

[Nikolopoulus]

why dou you ask it????he has passport danish.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

I say this because I think that the passport danish is more secures to the royal family..The use of a law is very strong instrument, is a all against a family. It sets a precedent impossible to eliminate, this passport can not give guarantees, it is impossible....It is possible that the grandchildren of the King of Greece would qualify for the greek passport with all the guarantees, but the kings and their sons, this is impossible,

 

[Nikolopoulus]

but if the law would be abolished, it is possible that the family would have greek passport

 

[Odette]

I say this because I think that the passport danish is more secures to the royal family..The use of a law is very strong instrument, is a all against a family. It sets a precedent impossible to eliminate, this passport can not give guarantees, it is impossible....It is possible that the grandchildren of the King of Greece would qualify for the greek passport with all the guarantees, but the kings and their sons, this is impossible,

The Queen was born a Danish princess. She could still and as an extension her husband could carry Danish passports.
If the King is not considered Greek but foreign he can make a very good argument that his great great grandfather was a Danish prince so he could have gotten the passport anyway.
The King's grandshildren who were born in the US automatically can claim US citizenship. There is no way they could claim a Greek citizenship since their mother is not Greek and their father was denied Greek citizenship.
The King gave himself the surname of DaGrecia which the socialist government did not accept as a legitimate enough surname to give him a passport.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Let me submit my little piece of "wisdom"

1. King Constantine (and his sisters, in fact) was born before the Danish Succession Act of 1953, and as such was, is and shall always be a Danish prince in his own rights no matter what socialst Danes may argue. This is, in fact, the reason the passports were granted, ironically not Anne-Marie's birthright because she lost it due to the fact that she married a foreign ruling/reigning dynast. Princess Benedicte, on the other hand, who also married a foreign dynast retained her status as a princess and citizen due to the fact that her husband was/is a non-ruling dynast of a defunct principality. Thus, King Constantine is entitled not just to a diplomatic but even to a regular Danish passport. Obviously, he didn't seek a passport as a Danish citizen since this would create an embarrassing precedent vis-a-vis Greece.

2. Greece has no problem accepting de Grecia as a last name as long as it gets transliterated to the Greek Ντεγκρέτσια [meaningless in Greek]. The problem, if I understand correctly lies with the fact that King Constantine wants it translated, rather than transliterated, to Της Ελλάδος [of Greece], which the Greek government considered not to correspond to a surname since it implies his royal status. To complicate matters, King Constantine keeps insisting during interviews, "I have no surname". Well, that is fine but it does not prevent or stop him from adopting one. This is where the subtlety lies with and how that clash between him and the government began.

3. I personally feel strenuously that King Constantine is Greek because he speaks fluently the language and knows Greek history, the Isocratic requirements for being Greek and he was born on Greek soil after three generations of a Danish family who settled there. BUT he must adopt a surname, probably by just transliterating the de Grecia to Ντεγκρέτσια(ς) which I am sure would meet the criteria of the Constitution.

 

[Odette]

I understand this is a conversation that may go round and round with no end in sight and nothing productive coming out of it. Constantine was born a Crown Prince of Greece and then became a King. He will carry this title to the end. He has no last name and since the Greek Royal family is tracing its roots to the Glugsburg dynasty the Greek commentators take great satisfaction calling him, either the ex or "the Glugsburg". The truth is that this was a ploy from the socialist government to reduce him to an average citizen, waving in front of him the issue of the Greek passport. No matter how we slice and dice it, he will not take a name and I applaud him for this.
I just wished the government would be as strict with the current illegal immigrants they see as potential voters of tomorrow and put as many restrictions on them before they hand them Greek passports.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

I will not enter into a discussion about the surname, I have spoken much about it. He was born in Greece, he was King, but has a danish passport and in the interview he gave on the occasion of the Olympics in Greece to Danish journalist, he said that, he had no current problem with Greece. He has a Danish passport with all warranty. I repeat that the picture at the picture of Queen Olga of Greece was symbolic. She also had danish passport danish passport. How many people were born in Greece and now living in other countries and have a passport of this country?

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

..... How many people were born in Greece and now living in other countries and have a passport of this country?

Zillions of Greeks, many of whom have become American, Canadian, Australian and German citizens and some (few) who retain dual citizenship

........ Constantine was born a Crown Prince of Greece and then became a King. .........The truth is that this was a ploy from the socialist government to reduce him to an average citizen, waving in front of him the issue of the Greek passport........

King Constantine was certainly a king with a kingdom, he is still a king but without a kingdom.
Greece is now a repuplic without extraordinary citizens. Even if some politician were prepared to treat him differently, the people would revolt. What I offered above was just a candid practical advice. What King Constantine will do is his absolute prerogative.

 

[roimat]

The European Union did neither intervene nor moderate for it has neither authority nor right to do so and it would never try to interfere for, insofar as it (the EU, that is) is concerned, King Constantine is just another citizen or non-citizen like you and me.
Last but not least, the country of his birth and origin, Greece, that is, has not rejected his application for citizenship in its merits but because he refused to acknoledge the Constitution which requires ALL Greek citizens to have a surname or adopt one of their own free will and choice. Thus, the reason he did not take his case to a European Court is because he had no case of discrimination to argue against, thus his claim would have been dropped as non-meritorious.

Of course the King took the case of the surname to the European Court of Justice! And the answer was that he should take a surname. But "how can you tell a Greek, that he is not Greek", as Constantine said? That was the main point of the Government's Law about his surname. To make him stand on the queue and ask for a name. But that's not a Democratic attitude from a so called "Democratic" government....

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

King Constantine took his property case to the European Courts. I do not believe he took the surname issue to the European Court which handles predominantly issues pertaining to equal opportunity, discrimination etc. Had King Constantine adopted a surname and been prepared to uphold the Constitution and had the Greek State denied him his nationality, he could have taken his case to the Court and he would have won triumphantly!

Due ti limited understanding of the nuances of Law, the issues get often confused. There is a huge distinction between patriality and nationality. The Law, Greek Law in this case, recognizes Greek patriality for up to three generations down the direct line. Something comparable applies to Israel's Law toward Hebrews all over the World.
There are millions of ethnotically Greeks, that is, people with Hellenic patriality, particularly in the USA, Canada and Australia who do not hold Greek nationality because, either they never bothered to renew their passports, when they lapsed, or were born abroad and either their parents never bothered to register them, or they never sought themselves to get registered, with the local Greek Consulates.

No one denies [or can deny] King Constantine his Greek patriality. He is Greek 100%, but it is he who declined to continue being a Greek National by swearing to uphold the Constitution as it was adopted in 1974, because this Constitution requires that all citizens to be equal and hold a surname.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

......As far as i've read Glucksburgs are of German,Danish and Norwegian origin.....

Glucksburg is a small town in the district [Νομός] of Schleswig-Flensburg in the northernmost of the 16 States of Germany, Schleswig-Holstein.
The House of Glucksburg was an unimportant, non-sovereign family in the feudal system of the then Empire.
The Danish and Norwegian royal families are direct descendants of this umimportant House [not the reverse], which, due to chance became unexpectedly important when the childless Frederick VII of Denmark appointed as his successor to the Throne the husband of his great-niece Louise of Hesse-Kassel.
Indeed, the House of Glucksburg were not sovereign to their land but they held it in fief to the sovereign duchies of Schleswig and Holstein (kings of Denmark).
Thus, King Constantine's great-great-grandfather, an unimportant duke, became, Christian IX of Denmark and this not in result of his own rights but his wife's!
I guess, this may explain why King Constantine revolts whenever he is reminded of Glucksburg.

It is another story, of course, that Christian IX became the grandfather of Europe when his daughter Alexandra became queen of Great Britain, another daughter, Dagmar, empress (by marriage) of Russia, one son King of Greece (George I) and another King of Denmark. But up to the first half of the 19th century, this family was dynastically most irrelevant and unimportant. I say that, because many of us of Greek ancestry are much more aristocratic than King Constantine and can trace our origins to Byzantium.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

Glubsburg is not the surname, is the place of origin. Queen Margaret of Denmark, who is the representative of this dynasty, in a statement did in 1983, says that Glubsurg was not surname of the Danish royal family ..... .Glubsurg is the place of origin but not the surname.

King Constantine will not engage to the politics, the seconds, he has not problem with the greek state. Prince Nikolas at a press conference February told the Greek journalist who ask by engage to the politics, he said "no", Prince Pavlo always has said that he doesn´t like the politics..

In future, the representative of the Greek Royal House will continue to attend royal weddings, if they want, because they represent a dynasty of royal.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Glubsburg is not the surname, is the place of origin. Queen Margaret of Denmark, who is the representative of this dynasty, in a statement did in 1983, says that Glubsurg was not surname of the Danish royal family ..... .Glubsurg is the place of origin but not the surname.

Queen Margrethe is neither the representative of, nor the spokesperson for, the House of Glucksburg in toto, whatsoever. She is the Head of the Danish Branch of the House of Glucksburg and, thus, can decide whatever she likes with respect to the Royal House of Denmark's nominal association with the House of Glucksburg.
By the way, it was not Queen Margrethe who decided to shed Glucksburg as the "surname" of the Royal House of Denmark. It was done, if I am not mistaken by her father, Frederick IX in or around 1953 with the Succession Act.
At any rate, her statement does not create legal basis to justify or legitimize King Constantine's argument that he has no surname. He has every right to make such claim on his own to the same extent that the Norwegian royal family continues to uphold its Glucksburg provenance.

We all know that Glucksburg is the name of a locale but we should be reminded that, for over a century now, noble houses that lost their sovereignty, have been using the name of the lands/territories they used to rule in lieu of surname [best example is Germany where the Law permits that].
Thus, the argument that the name of the city/state/territory of provenance of a noble house is not a surname is silly and childish. On the other hand, as I stated above, King Constantine has every right to continue to be surname-less as long as the country that issued his passport accepts that. If he and Denmark are happy with that, so are we. After all, it is none of our business.

Insofar as Glucksburg as a surname is concerned [as it pertained to Prince Philip], here is an interesting excerpt from the National Archives of the United Kingdom,

"The GUARDIAN MONDAY DECEMBER 14th 1959

A royal surname

The remarks of the Bishop of Carlisle about the Royal Family's surname seem to have been accorded the kind of stony reception given to a courageous traveller who lets down the window in a stuffy railway carriage. Yet his plea that the children of the Queen should not be denied all the associations of their father's family was sensible, and in keeping with the reputation of one widely recognised in the North as a warder of the best traditions of home life. When Prince Philip first came among us, we were told that he belonged to one of the very old ruling families in Europe—the Royal House of Denmark—that had no surname. In fact, the name is Schleswig - Holstein - Sonderbourg -Glucksbourg. The next act in the courtly farce was to make the Prince take his mother's name and become a naturalised British subject. No official, it seems, troubled to discover that Prince Philip was already a British subject by birth, being descended over and over again from the Electress Sophia (Charles I's niece), whose descendants were given British nationality by Act of Parliament. By birth Prince Philip was also a Prince of Denmark as well as of Greece—his grandfather, the King of Greece, being a younger son of King Christian IX. This family has married many times with the Stuart, Hanoverian, and present reigning dynasty of Great Britain. When, a century ago, the heir to the British throne married an enchanting bride from this family we did not try to pretend that she was someone else.

For Saxon or Dane or Norman we
Teuton or Celt or whatever we be
We are each all Dane in our welcome of thee
Alexandra

Queen Victoria's children were princes and princesses of Great Britain through their mother and of Saxony through their father. Would it not be a graceful (though belated) attribute to truth and an acknowledgment of the long ties between the British and Danish people if the children of this royal alliance were henceforth known as princes and Princesses of Great Britain and Denmark? We are all Europeans now."