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  #441  
Old 12-27-2020, 01:23 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Warsaw, Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BELTRANEJA View Post
She replied that her homeland was Greece, because it was her father's homeland, and where her father's homeland is, it is her own.
And her second homeland is Denmark, because her mother was born and raised there.
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  #442  
Old 12-27-2020, 07:30 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 56
I think this is best explained with an example.
To better understand the positions, the royal houses and the states constitute two different spheres, with its own rules and laws.

Example,
Spain 1975: By a law of 1969 that says: that if the Head of State, Franciso Franco, dies, the new Head of State will be Prince Juan Carlos with the title of King. In 1975, Franco has died, Juan Carlos is proclaimed King by state law, but not by the rules of the royal house of Spain.This proclamation violates the rules of the Spanish Royal House that established that Don Juan was the Crown Prince with the right to be King in the event of restoring the monarchy in Spain.

The Spanish royal house in 1975, its Head was Don Juan, it was not Juan Carlos. Don Juan, father of Juan Carlos should have been the King. After the proclamation of Juan Carlos as head of Spanish state, with the title of king by law, his title was created by state law, Don Juan his father, he is still the Head of the Spanish royal house.

Consequences of this:

Hypothesis: if King Juan Carlos had visited Great Britain in 1976, for example, Queen Elizabeth II would have received him with the protocol of a head of state, but would not have applied the protocol to receive a king. An example, Crown Prince Carlos would not have had to bow his head to greet the Spanish head of State, Juan Carlos, even if he had a title created by a 1969 law.
Why? Because in the field of European royal houses, which is where this protocol is applied, Juan Carlos is only the head of state, his title of king is not linked to any royal house. He would be received with the same protocol as a president of the republic.

Another example:
If Queen Elizabeth had held a celebration where all the European royal houses had gathered, as it was in 2012, in the photo who would be sitting as Head of the Spanish royal house, he would be Don Juan. Juan Carlos would not be invited, it is a party of royal houses, not of kings by law.

In 1977, Don Juan, head of the Spanish royal house, in a public act, to correct the situation provoked by law, handed over to his son the rights of the royal house that he represented. Since that day, the title of King of Juan Carlos ceased to be a title created by a law, it was the title of a Royal House. The rest of the royal houses and states with monarchy would apply with him the protocol of the Royal Houses.

Hypothesis, if King Juan Carlos had made an official visit to Great Britain, in 1978,Queen Elizabeth II would apply the protocol of the Royal Houses, she would have gone to the airport to receive the King, and her son Prince Charles, would have bowed his head to greet him .


The same is true in the republics. European royal houses are not recognized, nor are its protocols. The Republic respects what the law of that country says, but does not recognize the protocols of the Royal Houses.

A state with monarchy recognizes the Royal houses and its protocols(Royal houses without a throne are also recognized)A Republic only recognizes the Kings like Head of states, the republic does not recognize the protocols of Royal houses. The Presidents of the Republic and the Kings are received with the same treatment, regardless of the title they carry .In the republics,by example, King Juan Carlos was received with same protocol that a President of Republic,he was King ,because the spanish law said it,but the republics did not recognize him like King of Royal House.

Royal houses have its own normative sphere. When a state changes the law of succession to allow the woman to be Head of State, with title of Queen , for this to have effect within the royal house, it must be accepted by the Head of the Royal House, if this is not accepted, then it would be the same thing that happened in Spain from 1975 to 1977, King juan carlos King of spain by a title created by law that is not a title of a Royal house, because don Juan was Head of royal house that had the right to this title of king.

Regarding Delphine, she is the daughter of King Albert, a judge has said that Belgian law grants her the title of Princess. She is a title created by Belgian law, it is a new title created by the legislator, but no by a royal house, to the rest of royal houses, she is not princess, she is sphere of the law no in the sphere of the royal houses and its protocols. If King Philip says that Delphine is member of the royal house and recognize to her like princess, then she will be princess to the rest of royalhouses and this protocol will be applied for her.
I hope that was understood.
A sphere is the law and other the norms of royal house.
The royal house of greece is recognize by other monarchies and international organist like IOC, he can be named HM KIng constantine.

the royal house of Greece exists has not been exterminated by law,the law has not competence for it. When you refer to the website, first you must say that it is the website of a royal house, he is King, it is his royal house, this Royal house is recognized by all royal houses, and monarchies . And monarchists of the world including Greeks.
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  #443  
Old 12-27-2020, 07:49 PM
Heir Apparent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lipe View Post
Hypothesis: if King Juan Carlos had visited Great Britain in 1976, for example, Queen Elizabeth II would have received him with the protocol of a head of state, but would not have applied the protocol to receive a king. An example, Crown Prince Carlos would not have had to bow his head to greet the Spanish head of State, Juan Carlos, even if he had a title created by a 1969 law.

[...]

Regarding Delphine, she is the daughter of King Albert, a judge has said that Belgian law grants her the title of Princess. She is a title created by Belgian law, it is a new title created by the legislator, but no by a royal house, to the rest of royal houses, she is not princess, she is sphere of the law no in the sphere of the royal houses and its protocols.
That is interesting if true (have any non-hypothetical examples been documented?). But the discussion was of official policy, including passports, which is separate from behavior such as bowing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lipe View Post
the royal house of Greece exists has not been exterminated by law,the law has not competence for it. When you refer to the website, first you must say that it is the website of a real house, he is King, it is his royal house, this Royal house is recognized by all royal houses, and monarchies . And monarchists of the world including Greeks.
I don't think there is any suggestion that the family has been "exterminated". But they have ceased to have any official competence over the state and its titles, even if a minority of Greeks remain monarchists.
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  #444  
Old 12-28-2020, 03:34 AM
CyrilVladisla's Avatar
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
I have a question. What will be the title of Prince Pavlos when he becomes head of the Greek Royal House?

Will he use the title of Duke of Sparta? Or will he continue to use the title of Crown Prince of Greece?
In a list of Pretenders to the Throne, would not Pavlos be listed as Pavlos II? Would not the Roman numeral II refer to kingship?
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  #445  
Old 12-28-2020, 03:58 AM
Courtier
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stef View Post
Theodora is "Princess " in her passport, Princess is a title is not a name. She was born in Britain. She bears the title and can use it, because the royal house of the Hellenes exists in a manifest form. Her title is valid and is recognized by the authorities. She can identify with that title.
I believe I have read that Alexander of Yugoslavia, who had also carried a British passport, also had in his Bristish passport to identify himself, the title of Prince .
I imagine that the situation will be more difficult with titles belonging to less current royal houses at the time.
I do not know if this is only with the titles of royal houses or all titles of the nobility as well. This allows you to identify with the title in the public documents.
I have read in the section of this forum about king Juan Carlos of spain , it spoke about his lover Corinna Larses, I have read this in the section , it was a news about the title of princess that this woman used in britain, she used the title of princess, her ex-in-laws, sent a statement informing that Corinna did not carry the title of Princess Corinna Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn, title from Germany, because she had lost it in her divorce. the news had link with residence documents or the official use of her title in British public documents.....I don´t remember it with exactly, But her title was german (is a republic) and she was useing the title in Britain.
Yes but Britain doesn't officially recognise foreign titles of it's own citizens. Whether they legally exist or not.

And diplomatically it would be extremely diplomatically awkward for the UK to allow Theodora "HRH Princess of Greece/Hellenes" when the Greek government itself used "former King of the Hellenes" for her father.

But it's really about the Royal Warrant of 1932 when the legal use of foreign titles by British citizens in the UK was discontinued. Other countries may have different policies. Sometimes they might have a note saying "This person is also known as Prince xxx of YYYY" but that would be it.

You can use titles socially in Britain, that's certainly not a problem. HM referred to Constantine as The King when she talked about him (as reported from a meeting) and BP uses them officially sometimes. And Corrina ZSW has/had that title as a legal surname which is how defunct German Houses get around that problem.
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  #446  
Old 12-28-2020, 07:03 AM
Serene Highness
 
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I have previously said in a commentary to Tamta that he does not see from that negative perspective the appreciation of her British passport, she loves Greece, and I have found another interview of Theodora published in 2011, she says about her artistic name Theodora Greece ". .. On the other hand that is the reason why I use the name Theodora Greece, because I do not want to abandon my origins. That is my name and that is my country from which I come and I do not want to dishonor that. I just have to find the balance. Fair "

I post this to specify
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  #447  
Old 12-28-2020, 07:51 AM
Serene Highness
 
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Princess Theodora has not recognized the title, because British law since the First World War does not recognize foreign titles to identify herself in a passport.

Which seems very unfair to me because in other countries with monarchies, the british titles are recognize is allowed, the normal by reciprocity is, that it will not be recognized either. But this is another matter.
Another issue is that the British royal house, which is what causes confusion, has recognized the European royal houses, and their titles, and when they are invited on the lists they appear as Her Highness the Princess ..... this is Another issue, it is competence of the british royal house .

Other thema is that it can be used and in fact exists, and is legal, it is the possibility of using the Princess as a name, this if it is viable, and legal, it is not as a title but it is as a name.

You've talked about that the Greek government recognizes Constantine as Ex-King,no. The socialist Greek government, which is ridiculous, in the court of Strasbourg when the king claimed his properties, a judgment that the King won, the court had to resolve previous questions because the lawyer for the Greek government said that he could not be identified like ex King , with very ridiculous arguments, in order to obstruct the trial , the court was the one who said that Constantine could be identified as a ex king by the greek government.
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