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  #421  
Old 08-26-2019, 11:38 AM
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Could Pavlos have the title of "King of the Hellenes" (different from King of Greece). It can also be called the Duke of Sparta. Or you can continue with the title of Crown Prince. But we will only know after King Constantine departs.
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  #422  
Old 08-26-2019, 12:42 PM
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He'll continue to be styled (titular) Crown Prince unless there's a miraculous change of regime in Greece.
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  #423  
Old 08-26-2019, 12:52 PM
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The Crown Prince Pavlos has the title created by the Hellenes Royal House and recognized by other European royal houses of Duke of Sparta(Crown Prince ). In the future, when he would be Head of the Royal house, it will be necessary to distinguish: - For the monarchists, he will be the King of the Hellenes, because he is HEad of the Royal house.

- Between Royal houses, or the protocol of the Royal Houses, he will be the Head of the royal house of the Hellenes, with title of Prince( because it is necesary a throne to be king). For Greece, if in the future it would change its _ form of state to monarchy (assuming the rules that govern European royal houses) he would be HEAD of state of Greece, therefore King of Greece.
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  #424  
Old 08-26-2019, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by stef View Post
Nobiliary titles are personal,it is established at the resolution of the court of Strasbourg of 2000, but also, is included in the agreement of Vienna of 1815. The nobiliary titles are not of the states, because
The royal houses are before than the states. The Royal houses are Personal and historical entities,( with own and particular rules between royal houses outside the states).
Do you have a link to this ruling?

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Originally Posted by stef View Post
The states is a territorial entity, with a population and a political form,. A state can modify its political form, monarchy,or republic, but the Royal house can not be suppressed by a state because it is not competent. A state can grant legal effect to titles nobiliary or not.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but I can't see how it could be possible for a state to have the authority to grant titles but not to suppress them.

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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I don't know about " of Greece", but my understanding is that all male line descendants of King Christian IX are " Princes of Denmark ". , except the descendants of King Christian X who are in the line of succession to the Danish throne and are therefore "Princes to Denmark". Instead.
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Originally Posted by RoyalJewelish View Post
All members of the Greek royal family do and will always be titles Prince/Princess (name) of Greece and Denmark,
Count Ingolf of Rosenborg is a male line descendant of King Christian IX and he is no longer a Prince to (or of) Denmark. My understanding is that authority to determine who is a Prince or Princess of (or to) Denmark is vested in the Danish monarch.
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  #425  
Old 08-27-2019, 12:17 PM
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I think monarchists will regard him as King Pavlos II of the Hellenes but he will always be HRH The Crown Princess. This is in the same regard to the late Crown Prince Otto and his heir that even after his father's death, he remained Crown Prince. Same with the Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia.

Pavlos' heir will still be addressed as Prince and not Crown Prince.

Unless, King Constantine decrees Pavlos to be called King or any title with a style of His Majesty after his death like Margareta of Romania then it will have basis.
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  #426  
Old 12-26-2020, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by stef View Post
They do not call themselves kings or princes. They bear titles that belong to their royal house.
You have to differentiate: A state of a real house, they are not the same.
The Greek royal house is a European royal house, recognized by the rest of the royal houses, they carry titles that are valid for the royal houses, and for the States with monarchy that recognize the titles of royalty. Britain allowed to be identified with the title of royalty, Princess Theodora in her British passport she is "Princess Theodora", because Britain is a state with a monarchy and recognizes the protocols of European royal houses.
Are you sure about that? Because Britain doesn't officially recognise foreign titles of its citizens on documents like passports. Whilst The BRF and the media and everyone else are happy to call them by their titles socially they can't necessarily document it legally because legally speaking the titles don't exist anymore. And even if they did wouldn't be valid on a UK passport. It has nothing to do with whether Britain is a monarchy or not. It also doesn't seem like HM has given any British titles to them that would be legal in the UK.

Unless "Princess Theodora" is her name like Katie Price named her daughter "Princess Tiami" or something.
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  #427  
Old 12-26-2020, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
Are you sure about that? Because Britain doesn't officially recognise foreign titles of its citizens on documents like passports. Whilst The BRF and the media and everyone else are happy to call them by their titles socially they can't necessarily document it legally because legally speaking the titles don't exist anymore. And even if they did wouldn't be valid on a UK passport. It has nothing to do with whether Britain is a monarchy or not. It also doesn't seem like HM has given any British titles to them that would be legal in the UK.

Unless "Princess Theodora" is her name like Katie Price named her daughter "Princess Tiami" or something.

I've read that they have Danish passports referring to them as Princes and Princesses of Denmark via Anne-Marie.
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  #428  
Old 12-26-2020, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
Are you sure about that? Because Britain doesn't officially recognise foreign titles of its citizens on documents like passports. Whilst The BRF and the media and everyone else are happy to call them by their titles socially they can't necessarily document it legally because legally speaking the titles don't exist anymore. And even if they did wouldn't be valid on a UK passport. It has nothing to do with whether Britain is a monarchy or not. It also doesn't seem like HM has given any British titles to them that would be legal in the UK.

Unless "Princess Theodora" is her name like Katie Price named her daughter "Princess Tiami" or something.

Theodora is "Princess " in her passport, Princess is a title is not a name. She was born in Britain. She bears the title and can use it, because the royal house of the Hellenes exists in a manifest form. Her title is valid and is recognized by the authorities. She can identify with that title.
I believe I have read that Alexander of Yugoslavia, who had also carried a British passport, also had in his Bristish passport to identify himself, the title of Prince .
I imagine that the situation will be more difficult with titles belonging to less current royal houses at the time.
I do not know if this is only with the titles of royal houses or all titles of the nobility as well. This allows you to identify with the title in the public documents.
I have read in the section of this forum about king Juan Carlos of spain , it spoke about his lover Corinna Larses, I have read this in the section , it was a news about the title of princess that this woman used in britain, she used the title of princess, her ex-in-laws, sent a statement informing that Corinna did not carry the title of Princess Corinna Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn, title from Germany, because she had lost it in her divorce. the news had link with residence documents or the official use of her title in British public documents.....I don´t remember it with exactly, But her title was german (is a republic) and she was useing the title in Britain.
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  #429  
Old 12-26-2020, 09:01 AM
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Princess of Greece and Denmark is not a British title, so it won't be in her British passport. However, if you have proof otherwise (a picture of her passport page) please share because that would be a huge deviation of the official British policy that they do not recognize foreign titles for their nationals. Which is for example why the queen's grandson-in-law does not officially carry his Italian title of count; her cousin-in-law doesn't carry her Silesian title of Baroness; nor does her husband carry his Greek title of prince.

In Corinna's case, it could be that she is using 'prinzessin zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn' as surname in any of her papers (as that is how the Germans are handling former titles - they have become surnames - although in social use they are used as titles among the nobility); but not 'princess' as a title.
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  #430  
Old 12-26-2020, 12:25 PM
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"It is not a huge deviation of the official British policy".

One thema is the titles of the nobility, and another, the titles of the European royal houses, this is, the royalty.
The titles of Baroness, Count, Duke, Marquis ... are titles of the nobility, these titles are recognized exclusively in the states to which these belong, and only if these titles are recognized in that country, Italy does not recognize those titles of the nobility, it is a Republic, it does not officially or legally grant or recognize these titles.

It is obvious that these foreign titles cannot be valid in Great Britain. They are titles for the state to which they belong and have no more legal effect in other states with monarchy.

However, the royal houses are different, in its concept and in its recognition by other states with monarchy. They have a different treatment.

I speak, for example, of Spain, and its legislation on the matter is similar to that of other countries. This is not an anomaly, because there are even international treaties about this titles. .

The countries with a monarchy, normally, there may be exceptions, these states recognize the European royal houses, whether or not they are on the thrones (I remember that it has a limit, not all royal houses are eternally recognized,..in conclusion it has limits, but it makes sense, because you can observe that the Britain royal house itself When it brought together the royal houses, 2012,there were not all the ones we see on the internet). The titles of the royal houses do not constitute a privilege, it only allows the use of the title. These titles are recognozed in the countries with monarchy.

I am going to give an example.
Princess Irene of Greece, asked Spain for an exceptional way (we all know the problems that they have had with their passport) the Spanish nationality, this was granted by the Spanish government, who granted him the treatment of Highness, and recognition of her title of royalty.In her Spanish passport, she is Princess Irene.

In the Greek royal house, titles are only transmitted by men, no women, and it is not extended to her consort either. Into of the web, you can read who are members of this royal house, for exemple, Queen Sophia and Prince Michael.
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  #431  
Old 12-26-2020, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BELTRANEJA View Post
Congratulations to the couple.
This civil wedding, as I have read, is a prerequisite to be able to celebrate the religious marriage, because Philippos has a British passport and Nina Flohr Swiss, so the civil marriage is the marriage valid before the corresponding legislation, the religious marriage would be secondary.
How come Prince Philippos has a British passport, when none of his parents are British or have a British passport..?
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  #432  
Old 12-26-2020, 03:28 PM
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I have a question. What will be the title of Prince Pavlos when he becomes head of the Greek Royal House?

Will he use the title of Duke of Sparta? Or will he continue to use the title of Crown Prince of Greece?
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  #433  
Old 12-26-2020, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Lipe View Post
"It is not a huge deviation of the official British policy".

One thema is the titles of the nobility, and another, the titles of the European royal houses, this is, the royalty.
The titles of Baroness, Count, Duke, Marquis ... are titles of the nobility, these titles are recognized exclusively in the states to which these belong, and only if these titles are recognized in that country, Italy does not recognize those titles of the nobility, it is a Republic, it does not officially or legally grant or recognize these titles.

It is obvious that these foreign titles cannot be valid in Great Britain. They are titles for the state to which they belong and have no more legal effect in other states with monarchy.

However, the royal houses are different, in its concept and in its recognition by other states with monarchy. They have a different treatment.

I speak, for example, of Spain, and its legislation on the matter is similar to that of other countries. This is not an anomaly, because there are even international treaties about this titles. .

The countries with a monarchy, normally, there may be exceptions, these states recognize the European royal houses, whether or not they are on the thrones (I remember that it has a limit, not all royal houses are eternally recognized,..in conclusion it has limits, but it makes sense, because you can observe that the Britain royal house itself When it brought together the royal houses, 2012,there were not all the ones we see on the internet). The titles of the royal houses do not constitute a privilege, it only allows the use of the title. These titles are recognozed in the countries with monarchy.

I am going to give an example.
Princess Irene of Greece, asked Spain for an exceptional way (we all know the problems that they have had with their passport) the Spanish nationality, this was granted by the Spanish government, who granted him the treatment of Highness, and recognition of her title of royalty.In her Spanish passport, she is Princess Irene.

In the Greek royal house, titles are only transmitted by men, no women, and it is not extended to her consort either. Into of the web, you can read who are members of this royal house, for exemple, Queen Sophia and Prince Michael.
We were talking about British policy. So, I am not sure how your example of how in Spain an exception was made for the queen of Spain's sister is an example of how the British government treats her own nationals that claim a foreign title. Which, as far as I've been told, is something they do NOT recognize. They do recognize foreign titles of foreigners but not of their own citizens.
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  #434  
Old 12-26-2020, 04:42 PM
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How come Prince Philippos has a British passport, when none of his parents are British or have a British passport..?
He was born in the UK.
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  #435  
Old 12-26-2020, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
I have a question. What will be the title of Prince Pavlos when he becomes head of the Greek Royal House?

Will he use the title of Duke of Sparta? Or will he continue to use the title of Crown Prince of Greece?
He'll remain Crown Prince unless the Greek Monarchy is miraculously restored.
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  #436  
Old 12-26-2020, 05:33 PM
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At that time I am not aware that a British birth immediately gave the baby British citizenship. So, I think that his parents got the British citizenship for him. Otherwise, he'd be Greek or Danish.
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  #437  
Old 12-26-2020, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by stef View Post
They do not call themselves kings or princes.
They do so on their website.
https://www.greekroyalfamily.gr/en/royal-family.html

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Originally Posted by stef View Post
For the Greek state in the form of a republic, no royal title is valid, because it does not recognize the royal houses, only the positions they occupy and the title that this state has given to the institution, but no royal families.
Can you give an example of that? I would be very surprised if on state visits to Greece the Greek government would refuse to recognize the valid title of Queen Margrethe II of Denmark, for instance.

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Originally Posted by stef View Post
Titles are created by royal houses, not states. States cannot create Royal Houses titles. The republic does not give legal effects to titles, but it does not exterminate titles, because it is not competent to do so.
The existence of HRH Princess Delphine of Belgium would suggest the opposite.
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  #438  
Old 12-26-2020, 08:04 PM
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And I tell you that Theodora in an interview published in Spain about 2011, she said, that she loved Greece because it was her father's home, but she was proud of her British passport.
I didn't know of that. A lousy statement for a Greek princess.
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  #439  
Old 12-27-2020, 06:54 AM
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No, you don't see it like that, she loves Greece, and in fact she will marry in Greece. In the interview she said that she loved Greece and that since her childhood in her house in London she had been brought up with the Greek traditions, she celebrated Greek holidays such as Easter .. and others. When in the same interview, she talks about her British passport ... The journalist asks her: What is your homeland (Greece or Great Britain) then? She replied that her homeland was Greece, because it was her father's homeland, and where her father's homeland is, it is her own. But she does not hate or despise Great Britain, she was born there she grew up there and she has her British passport of hers that she does not despise, on the contrary she appreciates her nationality of her.
I appreciate Theodora very much, and I understand her position seeing the behavior of the Greek politicians, and the 1994 law, I understand Theodora, what Greece has not given her and has been given by Great Britain , even Queen Elizabeth is her godmother, and Theodora appreciates her very much.She has great loyalty to her father.
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  #440  
Old 12-27-2020, 07:50 AM
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I didn't know of that. A lousy statement for a Greek princess.
What is "lousy" about it? She was born in the UK.. the Greek RF have zero hopes IMO of ever returning to Greece.. so why would she not have loyalty to the place she was born and from which she holds her passport?
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