Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family

[fandesacs2003]

I suppose that he already had a French passport, as he had lived for many years in France. I also suppose that if he had a Greek passport that times, his passport would write "Prince Michael of Greece", in Greek of course. But the passports of the members of the Greek Royal Family have been sized by the Sosialist Government of 1994. I found that he is listed at the voters catalogues as the way i told you before...

Oh very interesting! Thanks

As regards the French nationality. He is the son of the Princesse d' Orleans, sister of the late Comte de Paris. As far as I know titles are abolished in Fremch law. I'm wondering what is his full name in the French Passeport.

 

[kbk]

Before 1953, various descendants of King Christian IX had succession rights in Denmark. The new Act of Succession terminated those rights but left the individuals involved in possession of their titles. This created a class of people with royal titles but no rights to the throne. As a distinction, those entitled to inherit the throne are called "Prins til Danmark" (Prince to Denmark, although this distinction is not made in English) while those without succession rights are referred to as "Prins af Danmark" (Prince of Denmark).
Although the Greek, Norwegian, and British Royal Families are genealogically part of the Danish Royal family, they are not descended from King Christian X and do not have any rights to the Danish throne. Norwegian Royals dropped all references to Denmark in their titles but Greek Royals continue to use the title "Prince(ss) of Greece and Denmark."
from wiki
And..Det græske kongehus nedstammer fra den danske Prins Georg, der blev græsk konge. På grund af de urolige politiske forhold i landet fik familien lov til fremover at beholde deres danske kongelige titler "til at falde tilbage på". Familien indgår således principielt i den danske kongefamilie, men ikke i den danske tronfølge efter den nugældende tronfølgelov. Dronning Anne-Marie har således frasagt sig sin danske arveret og prinsessetitel (til Danmark), om end hendes børn gennem faderen er prinser/prinsesser af Danmark, hvilket i princippet også gælder parret selv.
Can anyone translate this to us? :>

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Yes, the Danish authorities allow members of the Royal House of Greece to use their royal titles in official documents. Why would they not?
They have Danish diplomatic passports because Queen Margrethe wished it so and the government did not disagree.

What is a fact is that King Constantine, Queen Sofia, Princess Yriny and Prince Michael were all born before the Succession Act, thus they were born princes of Denmark and with succession rights. From 1953 onward, they have no more succession rights but they retain the af Danmark style.
However, having been born after 1953, they children of all the above are not princes either af or til Danmark. I would welcome feedback on the matter.

 

[roimat]

Oh very interesting! Thanks

As regards the French nationality. He is the son of the Princesse d' Orleans, sister of the late Comte de Paris. As far as I know titles are abolished in Fremch law. I'm wondering what is his full name in the French Passeport.

I suppose the same as in the Greek one: Michel De Greece. Just that, without the "Prince" in front.

So, as far as I understand, "Ντε Γκρες" is meaningless in Greek language, it isn't a Greek word and neither the name of a place, so they can use it as a surname; while the King wants to use as a surname the Greek words meaning "of Greece" (that actually is the English version of the French "de Grece").

You're right, "Ντε Γκρες" is meaningless, but there are many Greek surnames who become from such non greek names. For example, a member of the Parliament is called Eliza Vozenberg. But she is Greek 100%. Also the former New Democracy party leader Miltiadis Evert or even better the well known politician Evangellos Averof.
You can use any name as a surname, but it wouldn't hear so goof the name "Οφ Γκρις" (of Greece)...that's probably why they are using the Degrecia more often...

Well, if it's true, then how it is possible that the Greek princes and princesses use Danish diplomatic passports in which they are officially styled as Princes and Princess of Greece and Denmark? So?
I think that Danish princely titles are not limited to children and grandchildren of a sovereign, like it is in the UK for example, but it is legally inherited in male-line (if the marriage is dynastic, approved by the Sovereign), and dynastic members of the Royal House are Princes and Princesses of Denmark (the Greek Royal House is a branch of the Danish Royal House, so...). For example, Prince Georg Valdemar Carl Axel of Denmark and Iceland, who died in 1986, was a great-grandson of Christian IX.

They are not styled as princes of Denmark, get over it!

What is a fact is that King Constantine, Queen Sofia, Princess Yriny and Prince Michael were all born before the Succession Act, thus they were born princes of Denmark and with succession rights. From 1953 onward, they have no more succession rights but they retain the af Danmark style.
However, having been born after 1953, they children of all the above are not princes either af or til Denmark.

 

[fandesacs2003]

You're right, "Ντε Γκρες" is meaningless, but there are many Greek surnames who become from such non greek names. For example, a member of the Parliament is called Eliza Vozenberg. But she is Greek 100%. Also the former New Democracy party leader Miltiadis Evert or even better the well known politician Evangellos Averof.
You can use any name as a surname, but it wouldn't hear so goof the name "Οφ Γκρις" (of Greece)...that's probably why they are using the Degrecia more often...

This is not the correct thread, but just to clarify Averoff is a greek name. The correct name was Averos, 100% Greek, but since at this period (250 years before) the greek people while emigrating in Russian territory, they changed their name Averos to Averoff with a russian sounding name. It was the use at this time.
Now to be back to our subject, of course you have foreign names to people 100% Greek, but "De Grece" is a special case, becausse even meaningless in greek, everybody knows the translation! So it is not common to use it, and this was the "wonderfull" trik chosen by the King!

 

[BELTRANEJA]

I have a magazine in which there was a party given in Monaco by Prince Rainier to the Monaco's citizens and it was Prince Michael and Maria were guests.

My opinion, King Constantine has a Danish passport. in Denmark sites can act as surname, the surname of Constantine can be:
.af Grækenland, in danish
. Ellada (ελλάδα)
These surnames are valid in both Denmark and Greece because Greece must respect the legislation of Denmark and Denmark has to respect the legislation of Greece. The Danish law allows its nationals stating these surnames. Greek law does not allow places to be surname. The family have Danish passport, is in accordance with Danish law and Greece must respect it.


The surname should be respected, the surname of King Constantine appears in your Danish passport and should be respected, in conclusion if you do not know the surname of a person, you can not call Glubsburg him, because:
.Glubsburg is not surname , this is not valid according to Greek law.It is a place and a title of nobility and can not act as surname in Greece.
.he has a surname in his passport that is valid in the Danish legislation, and therefore it should be respected.
If into their passport it is "af Grækenland" or "ellada", it is in Greece ,must respect law of Denmark.

 

[Nikolopoulus]

I like Ellada, but Why Do you first say that it is valid in Greece and after you say that it would not be valid in Greece becuase the places are not surname in Greece?

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

I have a magazine in which there was a party given in Monaco by Prince Rainier to the Monaco's citizens and it was Prince Michael and Maria were guests...

Your rationale is somewhat flawed. By international convention, surnames get transliterated, not translated.
Following your rationale, the surname, say, Papandreou should be Priestandreou in English [since papas in Greek means priest] and there is no precedent to this.
Thus, af Graekendland in Greek could, would and should be Αφ Γκρέκενλαντ and not της Ελλάδος. And I am certain that the Greek authorities would have no problem with Αφ Γκρέκενλαντ should he apply for naturalization.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

Each country has its laws, the law emanates from the people represented in Parliament. . Danish law has requirements must have a valid surname for their nationals. First I doubt that the Danish legislation as in other countries accept different alphabets to own, for example ελλάδα.. But this allowed the phonetic translation as in Spain or France..a Example the naturalized Russians assume the surname traslated to the alphabet Spanish.
A person with danish passport in a foreign states his surname is the surname of his Danish passport, who denies the surname that appears in the passport Danish, denies the danish law and sovereignty. The greek royal family has a passport danish, they have a surname under the legislation of Denmark, In Greece, Spain, in France, Norway , German .... their surname is what appears in their passport.
(I say thet in Greece is valid this surname because his passport is danish) .
Conversely, a Greek with Greek surname in Spain, in Denmark , Norway, France ....... his surname is that of his Greek passport and this should be respected.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Each country has its laws, the law emanates from the people represented in Parliament. . Danish law has requirements must have a valid surname for their nationals. First I doubt that the Danish legislation as in other countries accept different alphabets to own, for example ελλάδα.. But this allowed the phonetic translation as in Spain or France..a Example the naturalized Russians assume the surname traslated to the alphabet Spanish.
A person with danish passport in a foreign states his surname is the surname of his Danish passport, who denies the surname that appears in the passport Danish, denies the danish law and sovereignty. The greek royal family has a passport danish, they have a surname under the legislation of Denmark, In Greece, Spain, in France, Norway , German .... their surname is what appears in their passport.
(I say thet in Greece is valid this surname because his passport is danish) .
Conversely, a Greek with Greek surname in Spain, in Denmark , Norway, France ....... his surname is that of his Greek passport and this should be respected.

That is correct. His official surname is Af Graekenland. And I am sure that when addressed by some official, say, in an airport or elsewhere, this is how he is [should be] referred to, but this doesn't stop any Greek [and in Greece, many people have nicknames], be it a physical person, a newspaper, a legal body, in other words, anyone other than the State itself, to refer to him or address him as they please.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

Most nicknames are substantives.
This is a example:
"Former King Constantine "Glubsburg" or "Greece" (in danish, in spanish....)
Who among them could be the nickname?
"Former", is preposition, not nickname
"Glusburg" or "Greece"...., is the name of a place, a name.
"Constantine" is name, not nickname.
In conclusion the noun that could act as a nickname is "King""basilia".
KING is a nickname, much used.

 

[Nikolopoulus]

I agree with you!!! it is a nickname!!! Glücksburg is not surname and it is not nickname.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

What is your conclusion Beltraneja, as it pertains to this thread?

 

[BELTRANEJA]

This is my conclusion: To say "Constantine Glubsburg " is wrong because: He has a passport with a surname that is not Glubsburg ... Second can not be said to justify the use of Glusburg, which is a nickname, because the nickname Constantine would be "King"

 

[Princess Robijn]

Tatiana is listed as HRH Princess Tatiana, while Marie-Chantal is listed as HRH Crown Princess Pavlos on the official website.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

Yes, it is
I thought that Tatiana would be HRH Princess Nikolaos, but it is not in web official, she is Princess Tatiana.
The Greek Royal Family - The Royal Family

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Yes, it is
I thought that Tatiana would be HRH Princess Nikolaos, but it is not in web official, she is Princess Tatiana.
The Greek Royal Family - The Royal Family

Even if she were a princess in her own rights, the Greek royal family precedent is that all princesses by marriage are called after their husband's name. Even Grand Duchess Helena became princess Nikolaou of Greece.
Then again, everything has been distorted and misused of late and nothing can surprise us. When prince Michael's daughters who are 100% commoners are called princesses, everything can be expected.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

Both the Princess Marie Chantal, as Princess Tatiana are Princesses by marriage, is the title of prince consort,they are princesses by marriage and is therefore correct to say "Princess Nikolaos""Princess Pavlos" .
Some people think that say "Princess Nikolaos" is old and they should be Princess Tatiana and Princess Marie Chantal, but my opinion is that this is incorrect because, it is not a problem of old/new , the problem is that they are consorts, the owner of the title are the princes , they are consorts

I doubt of the validity of the title of the daughters of Michael, the title of the father of Miguel was unique, the requirements that were required were not met, Prince Michael resigned it in 1965.

Also by criterion of justice, Lady Katherini, was a daughter of kings, she resigned the title was later Lady Graham. The sons of Princess Alexia do not carry the title of princes, we can not say Princess Arrieta...

 

[Warren]

...Lady Katherini, was a daughter of kings, she resigned the title was later Lady Graham.

Daughter of Constantine I, Princess Katherine was granted the rank of a Duke's daughter in Great Britain by King George VI in 1947 and was known as Lady Katherine Brandram.

 

[Charlotte1]

Also by criterion of justice, Lady Katherini, was a daughter of kings, she resigned the title was later Lady Graham. The sons of Princess Alexia do not carry the title of princes, we can not say Princess Arrieta...

Princess Katherine of Greece never gave up her title of princess. Once she became a British citizen through her marriage to Paul Brandram she could no longer use the title of 'princess' in the UK. No British citizen can hold a foreign title (this was brought in with the changes to titles and names in 1917) So Katherine asked King George VI to give her the style and title of the daughter of an Earl so within the UK she became Lady Katherine Brandram. But outside the UK she remained Princess Katherine of Greece. She was buried in Greece and her tomb has her name as Princess Katherine of Greece (Lady Katherine Brandram).
Princess Alexia's children don't have titles as the titles pass through the male line and not the female. (Same reason Princess Katherine's son has no title)

 

[BELTRANEJA]

Excuseme! I did a mistake "Lady Brandram".

I want to specify the last thing I said. I talk about justice approach, because I think Lady Branndam never used the title of Princess, she used the Lady. When I read about Lady Brandam, it is customary to read, she was the first Princess of Greece and then Lady, this is not right, she was a daughter of Kings, it was Princess and Lady, and those same people when they speak of the daughters of Prince Michael said, they are Princesses of Greece, why was not Catherini Princess?.

 

[Nikolopoulus]

I am not agree Charlotte, Princess Katherini was Greek she assumed British nationality by marriage, one person born in Britain cannot use foreign title in Britain but Princess Katherini was not born in Britain, she was greek.

 

[GRspecialforces]

i understand that people get interested in these matters, the titles of the royals and other things about them. my question is why does it matter, from the moment they became ex or deposed royals? in greece, such details are of no importance, no one will call them with their titles ever. greets to all!

 

[BELTRANEJA]

Who cares? For example, to the Queen Elizabeth interests the title of nobility, because she will send invitations to the wedding of her grandson, she shall take into account the title of nobility, of the reigning royal houses and non reigning. requisites to attend the wedding : be family, be a friend .. and obviously have noble title ..

 

[Charlotte1]

I am not agree Charlotte, Princess Katherini was Greek she assumed British nationality by marriage, one person born in Britain cannot use foreign title in Britain but Princess Katherini was not born in Britain, she was greek.

When Princess Katherine married Richard Brandram she became a British citizen. As a British citizen she could not hold a foreign title, in her case a Greek one. She may have been Greek but with her marriage she also became a British citizen.

The same situation happened with Princess Marina, when she married Prince George, The Duke of Kent she no longer held her Greek title, as a British citizen she became Princess George, the Duchess of Kent. Until her son married she was know exclusively as The Duchess of Kent. When her son married she asked the Queen if she could use the courtesy title of princess so she became Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent. She didn't revert back to her birth title as she couldn't use a Greek title, so the Queen allowed her to use a courtesy title. Just like her other aunt who became Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, although Alice had never been a princess in her own right.

Philip once he became a British citizen in February 1947, could no longer use Prince Philip as his name, so he adopted his maternal uncle's name as a surname.

King Constantine, although he has lived in the UK for many years is not a British citizen, his family have Danish diplomatic passports. They therefore can still use their courtesy titles.

Princess Katherine was referred to as Princess Katherine, Lady Katherine Brandram in the compensation case the former Greek royals took out against the Greek government in relation to their properties. The 2002 judgement refers to her as Princess Katherine, Lady Katherine Brandram.

 

[Nikolopoulus]

No, to the death of her husband followed she being British, but her title, in sentence of Court, was Princess Catherine, and she was british, her title was valid

 

[Charlotte1]

No, to the death of her husband followed she being British, but her title, in sentence of Court, was Princess Catherine, and she was british, her title was valid

She remained Princess Katherine OUTSIDE the UK, the court judgement was from the European court, not the British. Inside the UK, she could not hold a foreign title, therefore she asked King George VI to give her the courtesy style and precedence of the daughter of an Earl. Otherwise she would have been plain Mrs Brandram, and being invited to royal events where her precedence would have her seated far from other family members. INSIDE the UK, she was Lady Katherine Brandram.

 

[roimat]

i understand that people get interested in these matters, the titles of the royals and other things about them. my question is why does it matter, from the moment they became ex or deposed royals? in greece, such details are of no importance, no one will call them with their titles ever. greets to all!

You can speak for your self, but in Greece, everybody call them with their titles;-) and some other call them by their name, because they feel close to them, as they are very simple people...

 

[GRspecialforces]

everybody call them with their titles? are you sure this is what happens? i live in greece, too. and i don't only circulate between the circles of monarchists, and i usually hear people calling the ex-king kokos. if you want straight facts, that's the reality. and you must know i don't appriciate attacks and irony for my political views. example = jeaffrey papandreou if you want to say something to me, roimat, send me a message. greets!

 

[Nikolopoulus]

I can call to Constantine "..KIng" in Greece. It is a decision private of the persons. I belive in monarchy, I call to Constantine King, this is my personal decision, it is my problem. If you don´t want call him KING, it is your decision. He is my KING, officially, he is ex King, but for me he is my King. I am free to call him KING. In the magazines say that Michael Jackson is "...KING of the music" and he had not nobility title.