The position of the Royal Family and attitudes to restoration

[Odette]

The ones who come to Greece regularly and visit old friends are the King and Queen.
The two youngest royal children very rarely visit. As I said before, once the King and Queen pass there will be no ties between the royal family and the Greeks.
I am happy to say that I never go to You Tube and to this day I have not heard anything derogatory about the Queen. I am sure there are people who can find something to say but in general she is loved and respected. She even speaks fluent Greek.
Unfortunately there is not a chance they will ever be welcome back as a royal family.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

Odette, I do not agree ... She is not loved by the Greek journalists in general, she is loved by the Greeks who believe in the monarchy(and journalist), but the rest make derogatory comments about her, on televisions, in newspapers, ... it is horrible .In few years in Greece in some journalist and media have begun to speak of her as the former Queen Anne Marie, they are very few

I do not think that the Royal Family disappear in the future, this will depend Prince Pavlo and Marie chantal ... I do not think that they will reject in future invitations of the Royals Houses of europe , saying "We do not represent any royal house, for please you stop inviting us to your meetings .. "and if it would be,i think that the Royals Houses will invite to Prince Nikolaos or Princess Alexia.
They will understand that Paul has waived it.
I think that with Constantine will end a way of thinking but I don´t think that end the family...

 

[Sereta]

Do Pavlos' children have titles. I don't think I've ever seen it in print before. And if not will King Constantine bestow one on them before he passes?

 

[roimat]

I'd like to ask from the non-greek friends here, who most of them have no idea of the greek mentality and tha conection that King Constantine has with his country, not to come up to conclutions that are far away from the true. King Constantine and Queen Anne Marie are treated very well from greek people since they return to Greece, in 2003. The Press is just watching, and of course, not at all offensive to the Queen. Wartenberg probably is speaking about Queen Frederika.
And just to make thinks clear, i'm saying that they Royal Family is always Royal family, reighning or not. If they want to be treated as Royals, they have some obligations. They have to learn the language of their country. I realy don't undertand how many of you in this forum say that they don't have to learn Greek. After all, most of them have nothing else to do all day long!!! Specialy MC! Don't support her ignoranse. < ed Warren > but she must now, even after 14 years of marriage, lern Greek!

 

[Odette]

With regard to the above 3 posts please let us distinguish between the journalists who have an agenda to push, depending on the outlet they work for and the Greek Citizens. The sentiments I refer to are those of the Greek citizens.
I was talking about Queen Anne Marie who while Queen and while in exile she never caused any scandals or raised any doubts about her qualitites or commitment to her family.
The second issue is that the royal family as a royal family of Greece will have very limited ties with Greece when the current King & Queen (hopefully in the very distant future) pass. The princess and princessses will still be invited by other royal families but the ties with Greece and the Greeks will fade away.
I happen to be Greek, spend time in Greece every year and have lots of Greek friends and relatives who think for or against the family so I have a pretty good idea about what I am talking about.
The issue with MC is a non issue. She married a prince and she has no
obligation to the Greeks and they have no love lost for her. I am not a fan of hers but let us be fair. She owes us nothing and the feeling is mutual.
There are no nobility titles in Greece. Crown Princes traditionally carried the title of Duke of Sparta. The king has no titles to give his grandchildren. Those of Pavlos are fashioned princes and princess. Those of Alexia carry their father's surname.

 

[Iluvbertie]

... but she must now, even after 14 years of marriage, lern Greek!

Why?

She knows that there is no chance of the Greek monarch ever being restored so why bother learning a language of a country to which she has no ties.

Her husband might have been born a Crown Prince but now that Crown doesn't exist so any obligations to learn the language of the land of his birth ended when the Greek people and government reomoved the monarchy.

 

[ellinotati]

I would like to see Pavlos's kids be able to speak Greek and keep in touch with their culture.Truthfully,i don't care if his wife speaks greek or not.His kids will benefit from learning one of the most sophisticated languages of the world.That shouldn't be because of duty to greece but bec. of duty to themselves.Constantine's kids and grandkids can look at him then and say....i did you proud,i will take over,carry on and won't let us fade away.If they don't do so, nobody else will do it for them.

 

[roimat]

"There are no nobility titles in Greece. Crown Princes traditionally carried the title of Duke of Sparta"

In these words is obvious that you know nothing about that matter. In the Greek Constitution, even in Parliamentary Monarchy, nobility titles were forbitten to be carried by Greek citizens. As a result of that, the title o Duke of Sparta who was first given at about 1890 at the then Crown Prince Constantine,was taken back after a decitionof the Greek Supripe Court. No Crown Prince of Greece carried that rediculus title.

 

[roimat]

Why?

She knows that there is no chance of the Greek monarch ever being restored so why bother learning a language of a country to which she has no ties.

Her husband might have been born a Crown Prince but now that Crown doesn't exist so any obligations to learn the language of the land of his birth ended when the Greek people and government reomoved the monarchy.

Is so hard to understand the importance of the language? I'm saying once again: she is not a basketball player,playing for a Greek team no, for a Spanish team tommorow etc.

And the question is: if she feals that she has no ties with Greece or no conection, why she carries the title "Crown Princess of Greece"? Is it nice to call her "your highness" but is not nice to learn Greek?
If you saying that the Crown doesn't exists, they should stop calling themselfes royals and HRH.

 

[Odette]

"There are no nobility titles in Greece. Crown Princes traditionally carried the title of Duke of Sparta"

In these words is obvious that you know nothing about that matter. In the Greek Constitution, even in Parliamentary Monarchy, nobility titles were forbitten to be carried by Greek citizens. As a result of that, the title o Duke of Sparta who was first given at about 1890 at the then Crown Prince Constantine,was taken back after a decitionof the Greek Supripe Court. No Crown Prince of Greece carried that rediculus title.

Let us not forget that for starters, the title of the Duke of Sparta was carried by the Diadoch to the Greek throne only abroad. However to this day Prince Pavlos is referred to by this title occasionally even by publications like the Point de Vue.
The second issue is that the Greek Royal family are not Greek citizens. Since 1994 they have Danish passports as descendants of Christian IX of Danemark and although they are excluded from the line of succession they still remain Princes and Princesses of Danemark. They can carry titles since they are not Greek citizens and the country did not bestow these titles to them.
MC's official title is HRH Princess Pavlos of Greece and she will remain that as long as she remains married to Prince Pavlos.
I fail to connect the issue with the athletes who come to Greece for a year or two and play for team A or team B with MC.
According to some statistics there are about 1 million illegal immigrants in Greece who speak the language and calll themselves Giorgos and Eleni. Does this make them more acceptable to the natives or it makes them Greek?

 

[BELTRANEJA]

These illegal inmigrants aren´t invited to celebrations of Houses Royals using the title of Princes of Greece.Greece is a Republic, the title of Prince doesn´t exist in the republic, it is obvious..But it doesn´t mean that for the Royals Houses of Europe have not value it. The European Royals Houses are like a private party ,for be in it you have to be invited and for be invited, you have to be a members of a Houses Royals with or without throne..Pavlo and Marie Chantal are for the monarchies of Europe Princes of Greece, this title has one utility,they can be invited to the celebrations of royals.

 

[roimat]

The connection with tha american athletes is simple: Beeing a Royal, even non reihgning, hassome obligations. What is the difference of beeing prince of Greece or Bulgaria or Romania, if you don't speak the language of your country? Only the athlete, who changes countriew from year to year has no obligation learning the language.But Royalty isn't a profession, is an obligation. Unless of course if someone see is as a profession...
No illigal immigrants in Greece call themselves with Greek name. I said before, please my foreign friend, don't speak if you don't know what is the Greek mendality. MC would have been more accepted if she could speak greek.
And beeing a Greek is beyond citizentships,my dear....

 

[roimat]

These illegal inmigrants aren´t invited to celebrations of Houses Royals using the title of Princes of Greece.Greece is a Republic, the title of Prince doesn´t exist in the republic, it is obvious..But it doesn´t mean that for the Royals Houses of Europe have not value it. The European Royals Houses are like a private party ,for be in it you have to be invited and for be invited, you have to be a members of a Houses Royals with or without throne..Pavlo and Marie Chantal are for the monarchies of Europe Princes of Greece, this title has one utility,they can be invited to the celebrations of royals.

I generaly agree with you, ecxept from one think: you don't have to be a Monacrhy, to have princes or king, even an ex one. Serbia is a Republic, Romania and Bulgaria also, but they have princes and former kings. Because, even thought those countries are from the former Iron Curtain, they seam to have more political civilasation than Greece.
Every country has a royal family, even a non reigning one. Prince and King isn't an office, in wich you give up after you loose your throne.

 

[Odette]

I promise this is my last effort on this subject.
With responsibility at all levels and in all walks of life, come rights and priviledges. The Greek Royal family have no priviledges in Greece. They have been stripped of their citizenship, properties and one thing is certain that none of the other royals think any less of those who do not speak the language of the country they were kicked out of.
For those like the King, Queen and their three eldest children who speak
Greek fluently is a heart warming connection with Greece and it is lovely to hear them speak it. For the rest, it would be nice but I cannot believe that it is neither an obligation on their part or a deal breaker on ours.
Kings and Queens and princes retain their titles for life. They are not elected officials and cannot lose the title because they lost the throne.
Lastly, for anyone who lives in Greece and has not come across immigrants who adopted Greek names either has not looked hard enough or does no go out much.

 

[roimat]

Odette,you're compitely out of subject. You consider Royalty as an occupation,not a duty. That's what americanism does..

 

[Odette]

Odette,you're compitely out of subject. You consider Royalty as an occupation,not a duty. That's what americanism does..

I enjoy a healthy debate when there is rhyme and reason.
When it becomes an empty argument with no point /counterpoint, it becomes tedious and useless.
I suppose we will agree to disagree and close on a friendly note.
I am not even going to bother asking what Americanism has to do with any of this, since I am sure neither one of us understands what the other is trying to say.
Have a lovely day

 

[Lia]

I agree with Odette about the immigrants with greek names, i have seen and talked to many.

As for the language matter all i can say that if the greeks tomorrow decide to restore the Monarchy then MC will be talking Greek in a month!!

 

[roimat]

Of course Odette we don't undertand each other. You are thinking as an American and i'm thinking as Greek.So it;s a litle bit difficult to understand what i mean...in your point of view, a royal is just an occupation.Propably MC could be a princess to any country, without the obligation to speak the language of the country she is supposed to be princess. So american!

 

[BELTRANEJA]

I differentiate between a legal duty and a duty of the person, moral, the ethics...
Marie Chantal has not a legal duty because Greece is not a monarchy state, if Greece would be a monarchy she would have a legal duty of learn Greek as Crown Princess ..
But I think that it is a moral or ethics duty of the person ... I do not know how to explain it or call it ... If you use a title of Princess of Greece, if you're member of a real houses and to travel to the celebrations as a member of royal family of Greece, if you use it for promote business, I think they have the obligation to learn Greek.
Furthermore, in Greece and outside Greece, there are people who believe in the monarchy , they are few ... but they believe in them and want to hear them speak greek ..
This is not a legal obligation, but it is a moral, ethics

 

[Odette]

Belt. Marie Chantal was a socialite before she married Prince Pavlos and was elevated to HRH. She capitalises on this to promote her clothing business and appears at social and royal parties always impeccably dressed. I know she never graduated from any school, she attended the best establishments however and I am certain she has a great sense of her position and how to use it to her advantage.
There are a lot worse things she could have done and learning Greek is at the bottom of the list. So far she behaved like she respects her position and that of her in laws.
I am not a fan of hers and believe that Pavlos would have furthered his chances to endear himself to the Greeks if he had married one (for example) of the Greek shipowners daughters or another royal.
Still they are who they are and they have every right to do and learn whatever they wish to.
To repeat something I said before, Greeks voted in their majority on December 8, 1974 to abolish the Monarchy. They cannot have any expectations or demands of them now.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Exactly.

The Greek people told the Greek Royal Family to 'get lost - we don't want you' and now some of the Greek people seem upset when the GRF took that message seriously and have decided to make their futures totally away from Greece by not even learning the language of a country that totally rejected them.

I can understand that.

If my country rejected me I wouldn't bother learning anything about them either.

 

[roimat]

ILUVBERTIE, greek voted that they prefer a Repyblic more than a Monarchy.They didn't vote to abolish their History. I repeit, if they don't wanna have a relation with Greece, they should stop using the "Prince of Greece" style and the crowns and the HRH and act like citizens. But at list the King is a patriot and love his country. I'm not sure about MC.
Also, the people, under some circumstances voted for that, not the country it's self. If everybody thought like you, the prisoners should do the same because its country put them in jail.
It's tragic for some people to admir MC only because she is beautiful, she dresses well and she has handsome kids...

 

[Viv]

If I may gatecrash on this discussion ........

IMO the problem is that our commoner way of thinking - generally speaking - is different from a royal mindset! To us - well to me at least
(), there is in reality no such office and corresponding title as the king/crown prince of Greece for the simple reason that Greece has abolished the monarchy! However there are a few has-beens: an ex-king, a former crown prince .....etcetera.

IMO it looks different in the royal community!For royalty, being a royal with all the constitutional, representational and moral duties is their raison-d'etre, the cornerstone of their identity. It's simply all they know! If you take that away from them, they're left with nothing!( Don't forget that the worst thing you can do to a person is to take their identity away!)
Now, the European royal families are blood relations and won't pull the carpet away from under each other! IMO that's why they are styling the "exes" with their former titles as they do with the former Greek family. They do it out of respect, love and mercy, if you like! Without these titles the Greek and the members of other defunct monarchies would be "naked". The royal Danish court however leaves out the name of their former country. I don't know about the other royal courts, but I think it's the same thing.

The former King Constantine lost his office, he has no constitutional and no representational duties in Greece any more, but it appears that a measure of moral obligation for the Greek population is still there -whether the Greek appreciate it or not! I cannot say whether the King is acting wisely in this respect, that's a different discussion! Whatever, there certainly seems to be a genuine love for his native country! And I read somewhere that being annointed to the office of King, Constantine regards himself as being a "king" for the rest of his life.

Viv

 

[BELTRANEJA]

OK!!!! Viv.

He was born into royalty, they instilled the values of a king .. this is his way of thinking, this is inside .. He can not deny his ideology because it is what he was taught from childhood, this is his identity ...The identity of a person is internal, it is his way of thinking...
We all have an identity.

 

[Viv]

OK!!!! Viv.

He was born into royalty, they instilled the values of a king .. this is his way of thinking, this is inside .. He can not deny his ideology because it is what he was taught from childhood, this is his identity ...The identity of a person is internal, it is his way of thinking...
We all have an identity.

Hi Beltraneja!

Exactly, but I would like to add that a person's identity often reflects on the the way a person perceives him-or herself, which again is reflected in the way he or she is perceived by others!

For instance:
If a man is introduced as a king, he would expect to be treated with the respect normally extended to a king.
If he introduced as plain Mr. de Grecia, he may expect common courtesy, but nothing else.

And the other way round; if you were at some fine party, would it make any difference to you if you were introduced to
"King Constantine" or " Constantine de Grecia" ??

Viv

 

[BELTRANEJA]

I like your theoric It is good, the king is his identity..

 

[Odette]

For instance:
If a man is introduced as a king, he would expect to be treated with the respect normally extended to a king.
If he introduced as plain Mr. de Grecia, he may expect common courtesy, but nothing else.

And the other way round; if you were at some fine party, would it make any difference to you if you were introduced to
"King Constantine" or " Constantine de Grecia" ??

Viv

The answer to the last questiion is NO.
In this instance the King reigned for less than 4 years. If we assume he lost his throne the night of December 13, 1967 he has been an Ex King
for 42 years. During these years he kept his faith and language and raised his children as Greeks and never wavered in his belief that he would do whatever was the best for the Greeks rather than himself.
He demonstrated this the night he decided to leave Greece and when he refused to return and take advantage of the situation when the Junta fell.
The politicos may or may not accept him as an ex head of State and may or may not treat him with respect, however in no time did the King or his family ever did anything that was against the country.
As such they may choose to call him, or force him to call himself Da Grecia, he is and will remain the King.
The question is what happens after he is gone. There is no one to fill his shoes even in the hearts of the most dedicated monarchists.
Before there is a deluge, let me say I know there is an heir but he is an unknown entity to most Greeks.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

I guess part of the title of this post is "attitudes toward restoration".

It is a complex issue. The oldest people among those raised in Greece without the presence of the monarch are already 42. These people are not familiar with the concept altogether.
There are also antimonarchist feelings among older generations. But, IT alone does not suffice to explain the people's attitude toward King Constantine. Proof to this are the facts that Princess Irene and Queen Sophia are extremely popular in Greece.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

I am a monarchist I believe in universal monarchical values, I admire to Constantine because I think he represents those values.
I've studied a lot the creation of the Hellenic Republic and the end of the monarchy .. I'd like to express everything I think about this, but the english language prevents me ....
In Greece, the monarchy does not matter, it is possible that some people believe in the monarchical values, but they are few, others have curiosity by the monarchy, but it is curiousity ....

I think the best phrase that i have read about constantine
in recent years are of Misotakis, he was Prime Minister

I'll take two phrases of Misotakis:
The first:

Misotakis said that Constantine did the best he could, that anyone in his situation would not have known to do .he said the monarchy was not possible in Greece.

I do not share this opinion with Misotakis, I believe that politicians and journalists made the monarchy were not possible as political system in Greece, I think that it is proved by history that the monarchy was possible in Greece, I could not forget that the monarchy made be born in Greece the tourism and that the king's work was essential to enable Greece to dispose of those loans and aid of USA IN THE PLAN Marshall then of the Second War.

second, Misotakis regarding treatment and the image has been created in Greece over the figure of the former King by politicians and journalists said something as simple as:

"Constantino is a good person"

I think you can criticize Constantine for historical events took place in Greece, but I think you can not confuse the insult with the criticism.I believe that everyone has the right to defend of criticism, it is the justice.
I think Misotakis is not the best person to say it because if we travel to the past we can find misotakis of foreign minister in 1981, authorizing the funeral of Queen Federik.." from sunrise until you remove the sun" a measure of past centuries
but I like that he says it .
Constantine did not seek the restoration of monarchy in Greece, he was born with some values and continue with them, those values are part of him...

I was reading a interview of Misotakis about the last years of reign of Pavlo of Greece, I like much it, he spoke about the electoral reform, he said that it provoked a faction political parties, it made impossible the stable government, Misotakis said that this with other problems favored the political instability....(i don´t like him but he speak good...)

 

[mariazil]

I can't agree with you more, Beltraneja, especially as to the role the press (later the media) and the politicians played in the last 50 years in Greece! Constantine is unfortunately very misunderstood, but I would really like to know how each and every one of our political men would react in his palace and in similar circumstances, including his young age! I don't believe any of them would have the dignity to react as he did and prefer to lose a throne rather than see the Greeks dispute among themselves!